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Boltstrikes


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neutral wrote:

I'll pose this question to everybody: if you are in Telesco's shoes, and you have the option of giving Royal a one-year, $3.0M contract, do you do it?


No. I really wanted to add something before that but I try to set at least some sort of example.
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EverythingSF wrote:
But I do feel Alex is better than Rivers and we may as well not even argue over it here because I am pretty sure neither will change the others mind.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boltstrikes wrote:
Neutral wrote:

I'll pose this question to everybody: if you are in Telesco's shoes, and you have the option of giving Royal a one-year, $3.0M contract, do you do it?


No. I really wanted to add something before that but I try to set at least some sort of example.

Well, one of us has to. And the odds weren't on it being either Drew or me.
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Duffman57


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neutral wrote:
I see the Jarret Johnson platoon as a quick fix on A.J.'s part. It made considering the need at OLB, presence of Barnes, and the cap limitations. I don't see that being a good plan going into the future, though it might be put off because of how the board falls and other needs.

Duffman57 wrote:
And to add to that, while we're paying Meach/Royal 6/3m total, remember we're paying Floyd/Dax/Brown all under 2m IIRC. People also forget that while he didn't perform this year, he was also hurt all this year, people gotta give him a chance before he is crucified. New training staff/HC/Scheme will help him a lot, still a very dangerous return man when healthy.


It doesn't matter what those other three are getting paid. The issue is that Meachem and Royal are not worth their salary. That alone, and no other factors, mean that they are on the chopping block. I get that they can't get out of Meachem's contract this year, but they can get out of Royal's contract right now if they want. If he's okay with making Royal a June 1st cut, then they can wait until preseason to make that move. And that's an option that Telesco is likely considering. We're talking about a player who hasn't been productive in years, was injured last season, and that's with familiarity with the new head coach.

I'll pose this question to everybody: if you are in Telesco's shoes, and you have the option of giving Royal a one-year, $3.0M contract, do you do it?

And how about Meachem. What is he going to have to accomplish this year to make it worth paying his $5.0M salary in 2014?

I don't see a lot of hope for those two. They're fighting a very uphill battle, and both are likely on their way out and soon. I'd be surprised if Royal is on the 53-man roster this year, at least not without a significant paycut.

Duffman57 wrote:
DAX not getting claimed doesn't mean jack-(....), all it means was that any offer that the other teams were willing to throw at him, we were willing to claim. Sure he's an injury concern, but if hes healthy, he's a true #1 receiver, and the type of guy that Rivers loves to throw to.


It does matter. It shows that other teams came to the same conclusion, that DAX is not a sure thing. He might stay healthy and be a #1 receiver, but there's a heightened risk of him blowing out his knee and ending his career for good. Even if he stays healthy, that will always be weighing on the mind of the team that signs him long-term. He's a player that a team is going to need to have a plan B in place should that happen. It's similar to how the Chargers needed a plan B for when McNeill couldn't perform anymore.


Jarrett is what he always was, and came in here billed as. He's a near elite OLB vs the run, and solid in coverage, isn't a great pass rusher, but thats the only deficiency in his game. He can still do what he does well just fine. We mix up defensive packages so much that at this point, he's a starter in name only who can do a lot of things well.

Royal's contract is 3m with 1.5 of that guaranteed this year. We're only gaining 1.5m from that contract if we let him go. Unless you can find me a player thats going to play for 1.5 and is a guarantee to be better than Royal, why are we cutting him? Just 2 years ago, Royal was coming off a season with over 600 yards playing with Tebow and Orton, was in and out of the lineup and hurt when he was in the last two years. Give him a chance to be healthy and if nothing else, he's a very good return man, and he didn't get a shot to return ONE kick this year with us, and only returned 12 punts. Again, i dont think either of these guys have been given any type of fair shot, and both have quite a bit of talent...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duffman57 wrote:
Royal's contract is 3m with 1.5 of that guaranteed this year. We're only gaining 1.5m from that contract if we let him go. Unless you can find me a player thats going to play for 1.5 and is a guarantee to be better than Royal, why are we cutting him? Just 2 years ago, Royal was coming off a season with over 600 yards playing with Tebow and Orton, was in and out of the lineup and hurt when he was in the last two years. Give him a chance to be healthy and if nothing else, he's a very good return man, and he didn't get a shot to return ONE kick this year with us, and only returned 12 punts. Again, i dont think either of these guys have been given any type of fair shot, and both have quite a bit of talent...


Do you mean $1.5M of his base salary? I'm not counting any prorated bonus money, or anything to do with the cap. Those are sunk costs. His base salary is listed as $3.0M, and I've been under the impression that none of it is guaranteed for this year. That's the choice that Telesco has in front of him. And if he's okay with Royal potentially being a post-June 1st cut, then Royal will have training camp to prove that he's worth it.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boltstrikes wrote:
I think Meachem sucks. I don't think we will get any value out of him. He failed to achieve in New Orleans and failed here. His route running stinks, his hands stink, he blocks poorly... the only thing he has to offer is speed and even that is vastly over rated. Essentially I view him as a homeless man's Donte Stallworth.

That being said, with Floyd/Alexander on one side depending on which one is hurt that week, and Brown on the other side with Royal in the slot I am feeling pretty good. I'd love to have one more receiver in the mix though on the chance that both Floyd/Alexander are hurt but it's a luxury that we can't afford given the needs at SS, LT, LG, RT, RB, ILB, SS, CB, and OLB.... We are going into the year with two starters at OLB that combined for 2.5 sacks last year. Hades help us if one of them gets hurt.

On the WR front I'd also throw out that this really isn't the draft to tackle that front. It's chock full of guys who are a lot of what we've got: They likely max out at above-average #2's, there aren't a ton of guys with #1 WR upside. There isn't much difference between the receivers who'll go late 2nd and those that's go late 3rd to early 4th, and even still I'll be truly surprised if anyone outside of maybe 1 or 2 guys turn into the kind of player that fits the standard of a true #1 wideout. In all honesty, we're likely better off in that regard going much the route we have in the past and coaching up the late round and UDFA gems from the programs few have heard of. And if in the future we have the luxury of being able to invest in a prospect like a Demaryius Thomas or Torrey Smith who have tools to be elite but require more polish to get there, then that's a bridge we can cross at that point.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neutral wrote:
At what point does that hope get weighed against the reality that Royal and Meach are both among the Chargers' highest paid players in 2013?

Depends on where you're drawing the line in the sand. Rivers, Gates, Weddle, Hardwick (at least compared to Royal), Clary (again relative to Royal and god willing he's gone soon)... and this is after we've trimmed some cap casualties already in Gaither and TKO. Meanwhile we still have several guys that were they not on rookie contracts would be making more than them.

We don't need to create more holes than we already have. Our current coaching staff has no prior ties to these receivers. If Meachem and Royal are outperformed by other guys on the roster then they're likely going to be dropped on the depth chart, but until then it seems kind of pointless to just put a further drain on our available cap space just because the guys didn't produce in Norv's system which appeared set up to fail for the first two-thirds of last season.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LBC wrote:
We don't need to create more holes than we already have. Our current coaching staff has no prior ties to these receivers. If Meachem and Royal are outperformed by other guys on the roster then they're likely going to be dropped on the depth chart, but until then it seems kind of pointless to just put a further drain on our available cap space just because the guys didn't produce in Norv's system which appeared set up to fail for the first two-thirds of last season.


I'm not advocating that they drain the available cap space. I know that they can't get out of Meachem's contract this year. Cutting him in 2014 is a move that increases cap space; and, unless I'm wrong about the way that Royal's contract is structured, cutting Royal in 2013 increases cap space. And it's not about creating holes either. I see both of those players having an uphill battle to prove to the coaching staff and front office that they are worth being paid.

I am seeing the WR depth like a mirage. It looks deep now, but as we move forward, it will probably disappear. I'm not advocating that they draft a WR early. I agree with you that grooming late round (Day 3) players is the way to go. What makes sense to me is that they could target someone who can at least split time in the slot (Josh Boyce?) now as an alternative to paying Royal. Likewise, I can see them going after a player like Charles Johnson as an alternative to paying Meachem in 2014. This would be a case where they are using late round picks to divert cap space to somewhere else on the roster, hopefully to the benefit of the overall team.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neutral wrote:
The LBC wrote:
We don't need to create more holes than we already have. Our current coaching staff has no prior ties to these receivers. If Meachem and Royal are outperformed by other guys on the roster then they're likely going to be dropped on the depth chart, but until then it seems kind of pointless to just put a further drain on our available cap space just because the guys didn't produce in Norv's system which appeared set up to fail for the first two-thirds of last season.


I'm not advocating that they drain the available cap space. I know that they can't get out of Meachem's contract this year. Cutting him in 2014 is a move that increases cap space; and, unless I'm wrong about the way that Royal's contract is structured, cutting Royal in 2013 increases cap space. And it's not about creating holes either. I see both of those players having an uphill battle to prove to the coaching staff and front office that they are worth being paid.

I am seeing the WR depth like a mirage. It looks deep now, but as we move forward, it will probably disappear. I'm not advocating that they draft a WR early. I agree with you that grooming late round (Day 3) players is the way to go. What makes sense to me is that they could target someone who can at least split time in the slot (Josh Boyce?) now as an alternative to paying Royal. Likewise, I can see them going after a player like Charles Johnson as an alternative to paying Meachem in 2014. This would be a case where they are using late round picks to divert cap space to somewhere else on the roster, hopefully to the benefit of the overall team.

My point is, what's the harm of giving them through camp? I'm not saying absolutely don't draft any WR's, but it's low on my list of priorities because the supply across the league is just far too great with #3-#4 capable guys. Cutting Meachem this year, even post June 1st, does more harm than it does good. Royal's guaranteed monies are paid out already, however we've likely prorated his signing bonus and he only has one year left on his contract after this season, so if he's a post June 1st designation cut it's kind of stupid because it basically makes him a $3m dead money cap hit next year without him being on the roster - that to save $4.5 against the cap this year. With his guaranteed monies paid out, it makes more sense to give Royal through camp and make him definitively earn his spot; if not, we eat $3 mill against the cap, but in doing so save $1.5 mill in total cap space this year and Dean isn't on the hook for $3 million worth of game checks this season.
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Boltstrikes


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neutral wrote:
The LBC wrote:
We don't need to create more holes than we already have. Our current coaching staff has no prior ties to these receivers. If Meachem and Royal are outperformed by other guys on the roster then they're likely going to be dropped on the depth chart, but until then it seems kind of pointless to just put a further drain on our available cap space just because the guys didn't produce in Norv's system which appeared set up to fail for the first two-thirds of last season.


I'm not advocating that they drain the available cap space. I know that they can't get out of Meachem's contract this year. Cutting him in 2014 is a move that increases cap space; and, unless I'm wrong about the way that Royal's contract is structured, cutting Royal in 2013 increases cap space. And it's not about creating holes either. I see both of those players having an uphill battle to prove to the coaching staff and front office that they are worth being paid.

I am seeing the WR depth like a mirage. It looks deep now, but as we move forward, it will probably disappear. I'm not advocating that they draft a WR early. I agree with you that grooming late round (Day 3) players is the way to go. What makes sense to me is that they could target someone who can at least split time in the slot (Josh Boyce?) now as an alternative to paying Royal. Likewise, I can see them going after a player like Charles Johnson as an alternative to paying Meachem in 2014. This would be a case where they are using late round picks to divert cap space to somewhere else on the roster, hopefully to the benefit of the overall team.


I like the glimpse of talent that Spurlock flashed. He should be cheap. Bring him in with a ton of UDFA WR's and see who survives. Royal better fight like his career depends on it come training camp.
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But I do feel Alex is better than Rivers and we may as well not even argue over it here because I am pretty sure neither will change the others mind.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LBC wrote:
My point is, what's the harm of giving them through camp? I'm not saying absolutely don't draft any WR's, but it's low on my list of priorities because the supply across the league is just far too great with #3-#4 capable guys. Cutting Meachem this year, even post June 1st, does more harm than it does good. Royal's guaranteed monies are paid out already, however we've likely prorated his signing bonus and he only has one year left on his contract after this season, so if he's a post June 1st designation cut it's kind of stupid because it basically makes him a $3m dead money cap hit next year without him being on the roster - that to save $4.5 against the cap this year. With his guaranteed monies paid out, it makes more sense to give Royal through camp and make him definitively earn his spot; if not, we eat $3 mill against the cap, but in doing so save $1.5 mill in total cap space this year and Dean isn't on the hook for $3 million worth of game checks this season.


I'm under the impression that the June 1st cuts work like this:

http://overthecap.com/explaining-the-june-1st-designation/

Quote:
To illustrate this we see how the Kansas City Chiefs gave Steve Breaston a $5 million dollar signing bonus in 2011, which was accounted as $1 million in yearly expenses over the course of his 5 year contract. When he was released just the other day he had only completed 2 years of his 5 year contract meaning the Chiefs salary cap had only accounted for $2 million of the $5 million paid in 2011. The balance of $3 million dollars immediately accelerates onto the Chiefs 2013 salary cap.

After June 1 the NFL changes the way the acceleration works. After June 1st only the current years expense remains on the books after the player is released. The balance accelerates onto the following years salary cap. So in Breastons case had the Chiefs waited until June 1st to release him his salary cap charge in 2013 would have been $1 million and in 2014 he still would be on the books at $2 million dollars.


Again, I know that they can't get out of Meachem's contract. He's on the roster whether they like it or not.

And regarding the stance you posted on Royal, that's similar to how I felt about them making Gaither a June 1st designation. However, I can see a benefit to adding cap space this year for the purposes of contract extensions. For instance, if they're going to extend Donald Butler this year, they can do so with a signing bonus at the time of the extension. That signing bonus would start counting against the cap this year, even if they don't increase Butler's base salary. It would decrease the amount of guaranteed money on the cap in later years. That way if something went really wrong years from now, and they were going to release Butler, the penalty is lesser than it would be if they waited until the next year. The same principle can be applied to other extension possibilities, such as Cam Thomas, Rinehart, and even DAX.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my take on each position

QB - No need to draft. A late round guy to groom wouldn't hurt

RB - Not a big need. Can't trust Mathews, but Woodhead/Brown/McClain should be fine. Need to see more of Baker. Wiz must have seen something in Whittaker.

FB - Good. McClain and older Gronk should do the trick.

WR - Floyd, Alexander, and Brown are studs. Meachem and Royal were major disappointments, but it's a new system coming in. Goodman is on the same level as Stuckey on ST's, he's a pretty good returner, and he's a great blocker. Willie showed potential. Deon Butler is fast. Late day 3 if there's good value.

TE - Gates, Green, and Phillips should be enough. A blocker might be good idea late.

OT - Dunlap may be the best, and that's scary. Haslam looked like he could handle the job, but is probably best as a swing tackle. I don't think Harris is going to turn it around. Clary brings as much to the table as a waitress without arms. Dombro can be a good RT, or at least good enough. Biggest need, no question.

OG - Rinehart has been a starter before, and should be able to handle it. Shilling has done well when he's been asked to play, but is still listed as a T for some reason. I know nothing about Ohrnberger. Troutman is a wildcard. Dombro can play either, and do well on the inside. Unspectacular, but could be solid. Day 3 would be a good idea.

DE - Liuget and Reyes are a force. Wynn could prove to be a good pickup. Harrell and Scafe don't really add anything but experience. There's a need for some meat to replace Martin. A run stuffer on day 3 would be good.

NT - Cam Thomas is all there is on the roster. I have some faith in him, but one guy isn't going to do it. Day 1 or 2 for sure.

OLB - Ingram was half a second away from a lot of sacks, and I can only see him getting better. JJ is solid, and one of the better run defending OLB's there is. English has never done better than 3 sacks, and I don't expect that to change. Need a pass rusher, and more depth. Where ever there's good value would be a good pick.

ILB - Butler should make a PB this year. Mouton has a lot to prove. Bird runs with cement in his shoes, but plays about his ability. Good depth. Gachkar is a stud on ST's, good in the pass game, but his size hurts him. Not sure what Dillard is all about. There's going to be decent FA's after the draft, so it's not worth drafting early. Late pick, or just bring back Demorrio Williams.

CB - Cox has an injury history. I don't trust Wright as much as the rest of you. Gilchrist is good in the slot, and would probably make a decent safety. Gaston needs more time. Confidence in Wright will determine if it's a high pick, or a mid pick.

S - Weddle deserves every penny. I doubt Taylor is can start the season, and I don't think he's ready to be a full-time starter if he can. Stuckey can play both spots, he's good depth, has a chance at a PB on ST's, and may be able to step up as a starter if needed. Catthouse didn't make the 53 out of camp for a reason. SS has been a problem for a long time. Stuckey and Taylor might be able to do it, but it may be worth jumping on somebody sooner than later.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrDrew wrote:
Here's my take on each position

QB - No need to draft. A late round guy to groom wouldn't hurt


According to KFFL, the Chargers privately worked out QB Ryan Griffin. He could be a late round target. I agree that they don't have to take someone. But, Whitehurst will probably not be gifted the backup job like he was under Norv.

Quote:
RB - Not a big need. Can't trust Mathews, but Woodhead/Brown/McClain should be fine. Need to see more of Baker. Wiz must have seen something in Whittaker.

FB - Good. McClain and older Gronk should do the trick.


I disagree about RB being a big need. It's just not a need that requires a big investment. I'm worried about what the offense is going to look like in the red zone, and in short yardage situations. Mathews should get more opportunities to prove he can be valuable doing that. But, they need to have another player who can fill that role... someone like Jackie Battle, but good. If Mathews is injured, or really struggles in the red zone, they need to have a plan B to help the red zone offense.

I like that you listed McClain with the running backs. I feel like Norv didn't get the most value of McClain by using him solely as a fullback. Hopefully the new coaching staff will at least give him a few carries a game, incorporating him into the rotation. If they're only planning on using him as a fullback, I question whether he'll stick on the roster. Whisenhunt's old fullback, Anthony Sherman, is a candidate to be released in Arizona. Arians made a claim that he's "not a fullback guy," and Sherman would be a cheaper, capable option.

Quote:
WR - Floyd, Alexander, and Brown are studs. Meachem and Royal were major disappointments, but it's a new system coming in. Goodman is on the same level as Stuckey on ST's, he's a pretty good returner, and he's a great blocker. Willie showed potential. Deon Butler is fast. Late day 3 if there's good value.


Aside from everything else said about the WRs today... my surprise pick on offense is Tavon Austin. It's not a need, obviously. But, I could see McCoy looking at him and imagining new things they can do on offense. Not my personal preference, but I wouldn't count it out...

Quote:
DE - Liuget and Reyes are a force. Wynn could prove to be a good pickup. Harrell and Scafe don't really add anything but experience. There's a need for some meat to replace Martin. A run stuffer on day 3 would be good.

NT - Cam Thomas is all there is on the roster. I have some faith in him, but one guy isn't going to do it. Day 1 or 2 for sure.


Star would be a fantastic pick at #11, even if they jumped up to #9 to make it happen. All three of the starters have pass rushing ability, and it makes me wonder if that's by design. It makes sense if their strategy is to target capable pass rushers and groom them into multi-dimensional linemen at the next level. Teams at least appear to be passing more on first and second down, limiting the impact of one-dimensional run stuffers. Star would fit into that strategy nicely, and I can see him playing at a high level at multiple positions across the line, especially when they're not in the 3-4 base formation. He doesn't need to be elite against the run, just able to hold his ground against a double team. The same goes for Cam Thomas, and even if he takes a big step forward this year, there's plenty of room in the DL rotation for both him and Star. Plus, you know, that whole BPA thing..

Quote:
ILB - Butler should make a PB this year. Mouton has a lot to prove. Bird runs with cement in his shoes, but plays about his ability. Good depth. Gachkar is a stud on ST's, good in the pass game, but his size hurts him. Not sure what Dillard is all about. There's going to be decent FA's after the draft, so it's not worth drafting early. Late pick, or just bring back Demorrio Williams.


I can see them draft an ILB early, but probably only for a specific player. Ogletree is one of the players that I've watched footage on, and while there are some mental mistakes that leave you wondering, he also showed incredible athleticism and (at times) instincts. I get the impression that he's a player that coaches look at and feel like they can coach up into an All-Pro linebacker. It wouldn't surprise me if he even went top-10 in this draft. Whether Telesco feels that way, or whether he even has Ogletree on his board considering the character concerns, is a mystery. But, I could see them willing to relegate Mouton to the 3rd ILB role for Ogletree. He's my surprise pick on the defensive side of the ball.

Quote:
S - Weddle deserves every penny. I doubt Taylor is can start the season, and I don't think he's ready to be a full-time starter if he can. Stuckey can play both spots, he's good depth, has a chance at a PB on ST's, and may be able to step up as a starter if needed. Catthouse didn't make the 53 out of camp for a reason. SS has been a problem for a long time. Stuckey and Taylor might be able to do it, but it may be worth jumping on somebody sooner than later.


Don't count out Corey Lynch. They could re-sign him at some point after the draft is over. He's a good stop-gap if they're thinking Taylor should sit out part of the season, and would provide solid competition for the starting spot. I agree that they could add a top talent. But, they not only spent a 3rd on Taylor, they traded up in the 3rd to get him. Someone really liked him... the question is who and why.
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Boltstrikes


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can get a developmental QB as a UDFA, same with WR and RB. RB's are a dime a dozen when you don't expect them to get 20 touches a week.

We need talent on the offensive line, pass rusher and at least one corner. I know LBC disagrees with me on corners but we have to get at least 3 starters if we are going to compete with the current spread trend. 3rd or 4th round we need to get a guy that can get snaps in starting week 1. We are in a huge hole needing two starting caliber tackles. I just hope we don't reach with the need being so great.

Stay at 11 and see if we get Johnson. If Johnson isn't there we need to get value with either a trade down or another position. This draft is so awful with pass rushers that potentially I could break my television when we don't feel either of our top needs in the first. We can't afford to trade up, it just isn't a good move for us. Armstead/Watson in the second is not that big of a drop from the top 3 tackles.

Please Telesco be patient tonight.
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But I do feel Alex is better than Rivers and we may as well not even argue over it here because I am pretty sure neither will change the others mind.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Armstead and Watson are actually huge dropoffs. I agree we can live with one as long as we get a top tier talent in the first and JD'A works his magic, but I'm a lot more nervous of going into a season with Terron Armstead starting than with Lane.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JammerHammer21 wrote:
Armstead and Watson are actually huge dropoffs. I agree we can live with one as long as we get a top tier talent in the first and JD'A works his magic, but I'm a lot more nervous of going into a season with Terron Armstead starting than with Lane.


On an individual level yes, but on a team level I don't see such a huge drop off. Admittedly, I am always biased towards the lower cost option when considering value.
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But I do feel Alex is better than Rivers and we may as well not even argue over it here because I am pretty sure neither will change the others mind.
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