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TomRalph


Joined: 03 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, clearly we can't agree on which side of the ball we should look to improve as the main priority.

You're obviously OK with Marcus Cannon at RT and letting Vollmer walk and spending some money on an offensive weapon.

I think our Offense will be OK should we let Welker go and replace him with a middle tier WR, you obviously do not.

I'm not a fan of the way you seem to take enjoyment in belittling people however.
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24isthelaw


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jofos wrote:
I was suggesting drafting a WR in the first round.
Since 2002 the Patriots have drafted 3 WRs in the second round and have never drafted one higher than 36. Chad Jackson wasn't bad until injuries killed him not saying he was good but its had to develop a guy that can't get on the field because of hamstring issues and is gone after tearing his ACL.
Bethel Johnson was a failure picked at 45 in 2003. You can use him as an example as a failed pick.
The other 2nd round WR, Branch, the 65th pick in 2002. He worked out pretty well SB MVP. Also in 2002 the Pariots picked David Givens in the 7th (253). He wasn't bad, had at least 1 TD in seven post season games including SB 38 & 39 and he had 59 catches in 2005.
Drafting WR late like any other position is a crap shoot. Getting Brady in the 6th and having become the QB he is wasn't a matter of being able to develop a QB, it was luck.
As for as not being able to develop a position, there have been guys that didn't workout at a lot of different spots. Cunningham, Brace, Darius Butler, Brandon Meriweather, and Marquise Hill were all drafted in the 2nd or higher but no one says the Patriots can't draft defense.


A lot has been made of the team's inability to effectively scout defensive backs (Wheatley, Butler, Chung, Meriweather, Wilson barring unexpected improvement)
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 25720
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomRalph wrote:
Well, clearly we can't agree on which side of the ball we should look to improve as the main priority.


I never said which side should be the "main priority" so I'm not sure how you can agree or disagree with my "side". Judging by your plan of investing in Vollmer + a mid-range WR, I'm guessing you either think those players will take cheap deals or that the offense deserves more of the estimated cap room than defense. I don't see - and you didn't present - an argument of how the Pats could spend less on offense than defense this year. Your post mentioned going into opening day with Hoomanawanui, Fells, Branch, Edelman and Woodhead. Keeping Fells and re-signing the others + Vollmer + "mid range" WR = more than half the Pats cap room.

Quote:
You're obviously OK with Marcus Cannon at RT and letting Vollmer walk


I did explicitly say this, yes

Quote:
and spending some money on an offensive weapon.


Well, the Pats have 1 WR under contract excluding Aiken and Slater. They will have to spend at least $5-6M on the WR position. So, everyone on this board should be on board with that (including both you and I) unless one is advocating for an all-rookie WR corps outside of Lloyd

Quote:

I think our Offense will be OK should we let Welker go and replace him with a middle tier WR, you obviously do not.


I'm not sure why this is "obvious" to you since it's not what I said, nor is it how I feel.

Quote:
I'm not a fan of the way you seem to take enjoyment in belittling people however.


Well, I'm sorry if you feel that way but your entire response to jofos (which started this conversation) was baded on something he didn't say, sprinkled with sketchy math (the salary cap part), hyperbole (the Arrington/Dowling part) and confusing contradictions (the allocation of money to the offense/re-signing Vollmer).

If you find it offensive that someone will point out perceived flaws and logical incongruities in a post on a message board then I don't know what to tell you. There's a rather big difference between me saying your argument doesn't make sense or is flawed (which is what I was doing) and me saying you're a big stupid-head (which is not what I was doing but it seems to be how you took my response to you).

Apologies if you found my tone to be too strong for your taste, but you should know by now that if someone puts forth a questionable argument that it is going to get critiqued.
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jofos


Joined: 13 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

24isthelaw wrote:
jofos wrote:
I was suggesting drafting a WR in the first round.
Since 2002 the Patriots have drafted 3 WRs in the second round and have never drafted one higher than 36. Chad Jackson wasn't bad until injuries killed him not saying he was good but its had to develop a guy that can't get on the field because of hamstring issues and is gone after tearing his ACL.
Bethel Johnson was a failure picked at 45 in 2003. You can use him as an example as a failed pick.
The other 2nd round WR, Branch, the 65th pick in 2002. He worked out pretty well SB MVP. Also in 2002 the Pariots picked David Givens in the 7th (253). He wasn't bad, had at least 1 TD in seven post season games including SB 38 & 39 and he had 59 catches in 2005.
Drafting WR late like any other position is a crap shoot. Getting Brady in the 6th and having become the QB he is wasn't a matter of being able to develop a QB, it was luck.
As for as not being able to develop a position, there have been guys that didn't workout at a lot of different spots. Cunningham, Brace, Darius Butler, Brandon Meriweather, and Marquise Hill were all drafted in the 2nd or higher but no one says the Patriots can't draft defense.


A lot has been made of the team's inability to effectively scout defensive backs (Wheatley, Butler, Chung, Meriweather, Wilson barring unexpected improvement)


I know but Cunningham, Brace, and Hill or DL and they haven't really worked out either. The fact is the draft is not an exact science, some players workout great and others, reguardless of talent level don't. Saying the Patriots shouldn't draft a WR because people think they can't develop one is not really true. Asante Samuel, Eugene Wilson, and Ellis Hobbs were not terrible DBs so maybe the Patriots aren't all bad there. Again some players work out some don't and I don't believe that you don't draft a position that is a need because some players didn't work out. The Patriot have drafted some pretty good OL guys but I don't think that they should only draft OL guys because they have a higher % of working out.
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jofos wrote:
24isthelaw wrote:
jofos wrote:
I was suggesting drafting a WR in the first round.
Since 2002 the Patriots have drafted 3 WRs in the second round and have never drafted one higher than 36. Chad Jackson wasn't bad until injuries killed him not saying he was good but its had to develop a guy that can't get on the field because of hamstring issues and is gone after tearing his ACL.
Bethel Johnson was a failure picked at 45 in 2003. You can use him as an example as a failed pick.
The other 2nd round WR, Branch, the 65th pick in 2002. He worked out pretty well SB MVP. Also in 2002 the Pariots picked David Givens in the 7th (253). He wasn't bad, had at least 1 TD in seven post season games including SB 38 & 39 and he had 59 catches in 2005.
Drafting WR late like any other position is a crap shoot. Getting Brady in the 6th and having become the QB he is wasn't a matter of being able to develop a QB, it was luck.
As for as not being able to develop a position, there have been guys that didn't workout at a lot of different spots. Cunningham, Brace, Darius Butler, Brandon Meriweather, and Marquise Hill were all drafted in the 2nd or higher but no one says the Patriots can't draft defense.


A lot has been made of the team's inability to effectively scout defensive backs (Wheatley, Butler, Chung, Meriweather, Wilson barring unexpected improvement)


I know but Cunningham, Brace, and Hill or DL and they haven't really worked out either. The fact is the draft is not an exact science, some players workout great and others, reguardless of talent level don't. Saying the Patriots shouldn't draft a WR because people think they can't develop one is not really true. Asante Samuel, Eugene Wilson, and Ellis Hobbs were not terrible DBs so maybe the Patriots aren't all bad there. Again some players work out some don't and I don't believe that you don't draft a position that is a need because some players didn't work out. The Patriot have drafted some pretty good OL guys but I don't think that they should only draft OL guys because they have a higher % of working out.


I find the "Pats can't draft WR" argument to be really poor whenever anyone makes it. It's the hardest position to draft historically and the team hasn't invested a 1st round pick in the position.

Pretty good example of post hoc ergo propter hoc type logic
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TomRalph


Joined: 03 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
TomRalph wrote:
Well, clearly we can't agree on which side of the ball we should look to improve as the main priority.


I never said which side should be the "main priority" so I'm not sure how you can agree or disagree with my "side". Judging by your plan of investing in Vollmer + a mid-range WR, I'm guessing you either think those players will take cheap deals or that the offense deserves more of the estimated cap room than defense. I don't see - and you didn't present - an argument of how the Pats could spend less on offense than defense this year. Your post mentioned going into opening day with Hoomanawanui, Fells, Branch, Edelman and Woodhead. Keeping Fells and re-signing the others + Vollmer + "mid range" WR = more than half the Pats cap room. Vollmer and whatever WR we sign in FA would be more helpful to the team than just an expensive WR (IMO) you obviously hold more faith in Cannon than I do (and that is an opinion - though I'm sure you'll try and prove me wrong with numbers and all that crap) As for the hypothetical scenario of everyone on the roster (barring Welker) also staying on the roster for the next season is, again, a hypothetical, unless you can look in your crystal ball and tell me who we will be signing at depth positions of RB, WR and TE? Nope, well, lets just use the current receiving options we have to display as an example. Also, if we signed Vollmer and another WR in FA, we would maintain the offense (consistent and trustworthy protection
for Brady and supplementing the production of Welker with increasing the workload of RB's in the passing game and the WR we sign) This would also allow us to spend our draft picks (and remaining cap space) into the defense, which needs help at 3 Tech, DE, DT depth, LB depth, CB depth, S and S depth, and considering our situation currently, where we have only 5 picks, we need to fill as many of those as possible.


Quote:
You're obviously OK with Marcus Cannon at RT and letting Vollmer walk


I did explicitly say this, yes. Perfectly fine, I can accept our opinion, I won't spend half an hour looking at Vollmer's numbers and explaining to you that Vollmer is an elite RT and that the drop off in production to Cannon would lead to a certain injury to Brady and therefore ending our SB hopes because instead of doing that, I'll just accept our opinion.

Quote:
and spending some money on an offensive weapon.


Well, the Pats have 1 WR under contract excluding Aiken and Slater. They will have to spend at least $5-6M on the WR position. So, everyone on this board should be on board with that (including both you and I) unless one is advocating for an all-rookie WR corps outside of Lloyd Gronk, Hernandez, Lloyd and Hartline as starters seems like it could succeed to me.

Quote:

I think our Offense will be OK should we let Welker go and replace him with a middle tier WR, you obviously do not.


I'm not sure why this is "obvious" to you since it's not what I said, nor is it how I feel. Then why did you spend upwards of an hour trying to dissecting and belittling my argument where I thought our offense still playing at a high level should we let Welker go and sign a 'middle' WR? Seems to aid in my argument that you take enjoyment by trying to belittle people on here.

Quote:
I'm not a fan of the way you seem to take enjoyment in belittling people however.


Well, I'm sorry if you feel that way but your entire response to jofos (which started this conversation) was baded on something he didn't say, I BOLDED THE PART IN HIS POST THAT I WAS REFERRING TO - JEEEEZ sprinkled with sketchy math I said 'nearly all, when I should have said 'most' - I am sorry, your Highness. (the salary cap part), hyperbole (the Arrington/Dowling part) Again, a hypothetical situation if we put all our resources into the offense instead of the defense, obviously I cannot guess who or what position the Patriots draft and therefore cannot say who could be starting at CB at the beginning of the season (and considering the Pats propensity recently to surprise people with the position they draft, aids that hypothetical situation) and confusing contradictions (the allocation of money to the offense/re-signing Vollmer).

If you find it offensive that someone will point out perceived flaws and logical incongruities in a post on a message board then I don't know what to tell you. There's a rather big difference between me saying your argument doesn't make sense or is flawed (which is what I was doing) and me saying you're a big stupid-head (which is not what I was doing but it seems to be how you took my response to you).

Apologies if you found my tone to be too strong for your taste, but you should know by now that if someone puts forth a questionable argument that it is going to get critiqued. The issue I have mcmurtry is that you dissect every single word in a person's post, not all of us are NFL writers, or are fans with as much passion, longevity and knowledge as you. As a 'foreigner' in terms of American Football and with the amount of news coverage it gets over here,I shouldn't even know what the NFL stands for, let alone the intricacies of salary cap issues, the science of restructuring contracts etc. The fact I know little to anything about this would astound and amaze some of the people in the UK, yet in our presence, it's used to belittle me, and my post.

You also seem to try and convince people their opinion is wrong, as opposed to accepting it as an opinion, you try and force your agenda or opinion onto them. Effectively, FF is a bar where you hang out, have fun and talk about football with your mates, you talk of football as if we are in a courtroom.

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finn54


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Apologies if you found my tone to be too strong for your taste, but you should know by now that if someone puts forth a questionable argument that it is going to get critiqued.


Your tone has been far too strong for a while now. I've seen you do this to multiple people over the course of the past season. Not everything you disagree with needs to be 'absolutely laughable' or 'a ridiculous premise'. And you don't need to patronize people with condescending quotes like "This isn't Madden for the PS3" or "Not sure how long you've followed football but...". Earlier in the season I told you to stop it via PM after receiving multiple complaints from members, but clearly nothing has changed. This is your final chance to change before I involve the higher-ups. And ultimately, if you find yourself unable to be nicer and more cordial, perhaps you should stop posting altogether.

The pair of you, let this argument drop.
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AlexHyun777


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

apparently peter king reported that Ed Reed will hit the open market, and that BB will "swoop in and sign him."

regardless of the validity of this report, how do you guys feel about Ed Reed coming to NE next year?

personally i think it's the veteran presence we need in the back end. i would totally welcome this signing IF it happens
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I_GET_SAX


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Age = negative

Fact we have limited $$ for limited holes = reality

Experience would be huge but at his age how much could he really mentally and physically contribute? Not enough IMHO

I would rather use that $$ to keep Talib and sign depth guys and our draft picks.
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TomRalph


Joined: 03 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexHyun777 wrote:
apparently peter king reported that Ed Reed will hit the open market, and that BB will "swoop in and sign him."

regardless of the validity of this report, how do you guys feel about Ed Reed coming to NE next year?

personally i think it's the veteran presence we need in the back end. i would totally welcome this signing IF it happens


Depending on the cap number ( Wink ) I'd be all for it, I think he would be a tremendous learning tool for McCourty's transition to FS.

I'm sure anything that gets Gregory off the field will be celebrated by Pats fans too.
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Donut


Joined: 13 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

24isthelaw wrote:
jofos wrote:
I was suggesting drafting a WR in the first round.
Since 2002 the Patriots have drafted 3 WRs in the second round and have never drafted one higher than 36. Chad Jackson wasn't bad until injuries killed him not saying he was good but its had to develop a guy that can't get on the field because of hamstring issues and is gone after tearing his ACL.
Bethel Johnson was a failure picked at 45 in 2003. You can use him as an example as a failed pick.
The other 2nd round WR, Branch, the 65th pick in 2002. He worked out pretty well SB MVP. Also in 2002 the Pariots picked David Givens in the 7th (253). He wasn't bad, had at least 1 TD in seven post season games including SB 38 & 39 and he had 59 catches in 2005.
Drafting WR late like any other position is a crap shoot. Getting Brady in the 6th and having become the QB he is wasn't a matter of being able to develop a QB, it was luck.
As for as not being able to develop a position, there have been guys that didn't workout at a lot of different spots. Cunningham, Brace, Darius Butler, Brandon Meriweather, and Marquise Hill were all drafted in the 2nd or higher but no one says the Patriots can't draft defense.


A lot has been made of the team's inability to effectively scout defensive backs (Wheatley, Butler, Chung, Meriweather, Wilson barring unexpected improvement)

Wilson just finished his rookie year. How can you declare already use him as an example for inability? And Wheatley never could stay healthy he was always hurt and breaking his wrist.
AlexHyun777 wrote:
apparently peter king reported that Ed Reed will hit the open market, and that BB will "swoop in and sign him."

regardless of the validity of this report, how do you guys feel about Ed Reed coming to NE next year?

personally i think it's the veteran presence we need in the back end. i would totally welcome this signing IF it happens

It should be an upgrade over current S and he should help McCourty improve his communication skills in the backfield.

McMurtry is there something you've seen on tape that makes you believe Cannon will be an effective starting RT for us? I' like Vollmer back if price is right(though I wouldnt spend the 7 mill I' offer him less.). Also how much do you think amendola would cost?

Tom Ralph Brady would be fine if we have a decent RT. Kaczur wasn't as bad as people made him out to be but he wasnt anything much more than average and Brady has been fine.

Another thing I'd throw out there is Devone Bess is a FA next yr and report Miami was frustrated w/ him wonder how much it'd cost to get him here. I still wish we could've somehow gotten Jarius Wright last yr loved him as a slot WR.
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donut wrote:

McMurtry is there something you've seen on tape that makes you believe Cannon will be an effective starting RT for us? I' like Vollmer back if price is right(though I wouldnt spend the 7 mill I' offer him less.). Also how much do you think amendola would cost?


Cannon - He was really unimpressive in camp but looked OK during the season when asked to fill in. I think it's really a cost/benefit type thing. IMO it's just not worth investing big bucks in a RT, no matter how good he is. I think between Cannon and another young player (either a current PS guy or a mid round pick), they'd be OK. If there's a place on the team I wouldn't mind being a little weak, it's probably RT. I trust the offense and coaches to be able to make up for a shaky RT (we've seen them do that many times before) and it's just not that important of a position all things considered.

So my belief here is that between the coaching staff and a little progression, Cannon can be a slightly below average RT (at worst). To me, that's good enough given the financial cost.

Amendola - I think there will be a small but strong market (i.e. most teams won't want him but a few will really want him) and he will get too much given his injury issues. It does look to be a bad market for free agents so I wouldn't expect that he'd break the bank but he should be able to get something like 3/$15M unless his medicals are really terrible. That's probably a touch too rich for my taste given the number of other options out there.
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Donut


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Donut wrote:

McMurtry is there something you've seen on tape that makes you believe Cannon will be an effective starting RT for us? I' like Vollmer back if price is right(though I wouldnt spend the 7 mill I' offer him less.). Also how much do you think amendola would cost?


Cannon - He was really unimpressive in camp but looked OK during the season when asked to fill in. I think it's really a cost/benefit type thing. IMO it's just not worth investing big bucks in a RT, no matter how good he is. I think between Cannon and another young player (either a current PS guy or a mid round pick), they'd be OK. If there's a place on the team I wouldn't mind being a little weak, it's probably RT. I trust the offense and coaches to be able to make up for a shaky RT (we've seen them do that many times before) and it's just not that important of a position all things considered.

So my belief here is that between the coaching staff and a little progression, Cannon can be a slightly below average RT (at worst). To me, that's good enough given the financial cost.

Alright I was just wondering if I was just missing something about Cannon. Though people have talked up Zusevic being a good pick up and he was learning from Ferentzes. Though I agree w/ not wanting to pay a lot for Vollmer w/ the success we've had w/ Olman and vollmer.
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Amendola - I think there will be a small but strong market (i.e. most teams won't want him but a few will really want him) and he will get too much given his injury issues. It does look to be a bad market for free agents so I wouldn't expect that he'd break the bank but he should be able to get something like 3/$15M unless his medicals are really terrible. That's probably a touch too rich for my taste given the number of other options out there.

I'd be willing to give him slightly less. If he got and Eddie royal type deal or Morgan I'd be fine w/ that(3 yrs 11.25 type money).
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jofos


Joined: 13 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomRalph wrote:
Well, clearly we can't agree on which side of the ball we should look to improve as the main priority.

You're obviously OK with Marcus Cannon at RT and letting Vollmer walk and spending some money on an offensive weapon.

I think our Offense will be OK should we let Welker go and replace him with a middle tier WR, you obviously do not.

I'm not a fan of the way you seem to take enjoyment in belittling people however.


There is nothing wrong with disagreeing as we are all just giving an opinion. It's not like Bill is reading these forums to get ideas.
As for as mcmurtry and the belittling, well he has his opinion. His way of sharing it may seem rude but thats likely just how he is. I'm pretty much a smartass all the time and everyone that knows me thinks its funny because they know that its just a joke or whatever. Mcmurtry is just giving an opinion and I really don't think he was trying to belittle you anymore than I felt you were trying to belittle me when talking about it being a bad idea to go after a FA WR. I agree that it would be a horrible idea and you simply misunderstood what I meant when I said the Patriots needed to get an elite WR. I feel like that could be done through the draft.
Tom you and mcmurtry are both good posters and you both bring a lot of good things to the conversation, you should both keep doing it the same way that you have been, just don't take it personal.
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