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3-4 player transition thread
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poorbytehshore


Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Posts: 2635
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmmm Reply with quote

Ether wrote:


No, but I didn't think Rogers was either in 2008.


Rogers problem IMO was lack of discipline in the scheme. Oftentimes he'd overshoot and leave a massive lane for the back to burst into and rip us for chunks of yards. Taylor is great against the run and good at collapsing the pocket so I think he'd hold up great at 34 end with Rubin being the unsung hero on the nose.
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Ether


Joined: 16 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmmm Reply with quote

Dropkick_pride wrote:
Ether wrote:


I remember Rubin being a nobody until Rogers got hurt then we him a shot at NT. He was so good that when Rogers came back we tried to keep him at nose and put Rogers at end, in which either due to injury, lack of motivation, or the position switch Rogers was pretty worthless. Which screams Phil Taylor to me really.

tl;dr version: no


They have have similar body types and position, but Rogers was famous for being a lazy, unmotivated sack of crap most of his career. Rogers had more talent than most, but not enough between the ears. I think its rather insulting to compare Taylor to him at this point...


They play comparably and I don't know how much we can credit Roger's underachievement at DE to just his "laziness". I do know that there's not a lot of players that size in the league who play the position. I just don't think that one can make the assumption that a position switch like that would pan out when it's rooted blind faith. Ngata for the most part is an exception, not a rule when it comes to playing DE in a 3-4.

That being said I'm not too worried about it because it sounds like Horton is focused on putting players in the best position to succeed no matter what. I'd just be surprised if Taylor could play a true 5 tech in a 3-4.
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Ether


Joined: 16 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmmm Reply with quote

poorbytehshore wrote:
Ether wrote:


No, but I didn't think Rogers was either in 2008.


Rogers problem IMO was lack of discipline in the scheme. Oftentimes he'd overshoot and leave a massive lane for the back to burst into and rip us for chunks of yards. Taylor is great against the run and good at collapsing the pocket so I think he'd hold up great at 34 end with Rubin being the unsung hero on the nose.


At the time we thought that the same gap shooting ability would make him a better DE than NT. I don't think that Rogers is really a good comparison at all because that little experiment last such a short amount of time. I regret making it.
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Dropkick_pride


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmmm Reply with quote

Ether wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
Ether wrote:


I remember Rubin being a nobody until Rogers got hurt then we him a shot at NT. He was so good that when Rogers came back we tried to keep him at nose and put Rogers at end, in which either due to injury, lack of motivation, or the position switch Rogers was pretty worthless. Which screams Phil Taylor to me really.

tl;dr version: no


They have have similar body types and position, but Rogers was famous for being a lazy, unmotivated sack of crap most of his career. Rogers had more talent than most, but not enough between the ears. I think its rather insulting to compare Taylor to him at this point...


They play comparably and I don't know how much we can credit Roger's underachievement at DE to just his "laziness". I do know that there's not a lot of players that size in the league who play the position. I just don't think that one can make the assumption that a position switch like that would pan out when it's rooted blind faith. Ngata for the most part is an exception, not a rule when it comes to playing DE in a 3-4.

That being said I'm not too worried about it because it sounds like Horton is focused on putting players in the best position to succeed no matter what. I'd just be surprised if Taylor could play a true 5 tech in a 3-4.



I'm saying not Taylor is Ngata either of course. I think Taylor has the potential to be a solid 34 de player, but we won't know how good he is till it happens.

As for a true 5 tech, I don't any of the guys we have fit that perfectly... I hope Horton moves our big bodies down inside and lets them play more 3 and 4i, putting rubin at 0 more than not. Force both guards to block down inside, hold the tackles narrower, and leave Sheard and Gocong? On the perimeter attacking the edge one on one. Of if the tackles flex out wide the gaps for ILBs will be plenty.... IF Horton comes in and tries to force our DEs to play true 5 tech they are screwed....
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few more tidbits I found reading old articles (instead of working on my grad paper).....


Gocong.

Holds the fcs record for career sack leaders...42. Is #2 in all college... (Suggs had 44)

Holds the fcs record for most sacks in a single season... 23 and 1/2. Is #2 in all college... (Suggs had 24)

He was a pass rushing DE in college, but a bit undersized for the nfl. Many projected him as a nfl 34 OLB.

Eagles drafted him to play OLB in their 43, surprising many.

Gocong is traded to the browns. Heckert makes multiple statements the Gocong will play OLB and be a pass rusher.

Mangini/Ryan give the two OLB starting roles to veteran players. Gocong wins the last ILB spot because of ability to tackle a rb. Gocong puts up really good stats...

Old coaches out... New coaches in... Back comes a 43. Gocong wins the starting Sam OLB spot.

Somewhere in this time Gocong makes a statement about how happy he is to be getting out of the inside and returning to the edge where he feels he is the more successful....

Gocong looks really good until the Achilles injuries...

Old coaches out... New coaches in... Back comes the 34....

I Arizona both of the OLBs were the biggest LBs on the team. The smaller LBs played inside. Gocong and Sheard and the biggest LBs.

When Horton was assisting in PIT for a good chunk of time all four LBs were smaller in comparison. Until they drafted Woodley as OLB... About the same size as Gocong and look to have many of the same skills... Pro day and combine stats are nearly exactly the same or Gocong was better.
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bulldog


Joined: 18 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropkick_pride wrote:
Old coaches out... New coaches in... Back comes a 43. Gocong wins the starting Sam OLB spot.


Gocong didn't "win" anything. He was competing (kinda) for the MLB spot, coaches wanted DQ there. Then he was assigned the WILL spot. He was never the dedicated starter for the SAM. Only when Fujita was out.

Quote:
Somewhere in this time Gocong makes a statement about how happy he is to be getting out of the inside and returning to the edge where he feels he is the more successful....


Where did you see this? just general curiosity.
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bulldog wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
Old coaches out... New coaches in... Back comes a 43. Gocong wins the starting Sam OLB spot.


Gocong didn't "win" anything. He was competing (kinda) for the MLB spot, coaches wanted DQ there. Then he was assigned the WILL spot. He was never the dedicated starter for the SAM. Only when Fujita was out.

Quote:
Somewhere in this time Gocong makes a statement about how happy he is to be getting out of the inside and returning to the edge where he feels he is the more successful....


Where did you see this? just general curiosity.


He was strong side in Phili, weak side with the browns...

All the LBs were playing for all the spots to see which combination was best, yes including MLB. If don't think Gocong won the spot you should ask the backups what happened...

I have links for everything... Somewhere....
---- gggrftrr. Can't find it. Still looking. It was such a good quote I can't believe I lost it... That what I get for using my iPad I guess. Crap man... I'm almost positive it was 2011... [inappropriate/removed]
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bulldog wrote:

Dropkick_pride wrote:
Somewhere in this time Gocong makes a statement about how happy he is to be getting out of the inside and returning to the edge where he feels he is the more successful....

Where did you see this? just general curiosity.


http://chronicle.northcoastnow.com/2011/10/14/browns-outside-linebacker-chris-gocongís-play-getting-notice/

Not the article I'm looking for Mad But does have some good tid-bits realting to the conversation. I believe this is right about the same time as the article that I'm looking for but haven't found yet... Crying or Very sad So frustrating.
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bulldog


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In coordinator - Jauronís scheme, the linebackers are used as the primary blitzers. In many of the nickel situations, Jauron goes with three defensive linemen and three linebackers, often blitzing Gocong.


Gocong was the guy to come OFF the field when the Browns went to the Nickel.

I did always think he could be a guy off the edge, i'm just stating what you are ignoring. The fact that 3 HC's never used him as a primary pass rusher or pass rushing specialist.
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DawgSoldier


Joined: 30 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropkick pride. Gocong is an ILBin the 34. He had his best career numbers there.

He has never been a pass rusher in the NFL. 3 NFL HC's vs Dropkickpride opinion. Give it up guy.
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Dropkick_pride


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DawgSoldier wrote:
Dropkick pride. Gocong is an ILBin the 34. He had his best career numbers there.

He has never been a pass rusher in the NFL. 3 NFL HC's vs Dropkickpride opinion. Give it up guy.


Yup, said he was a ILB with Mangini many many many many many times.

2 HC he has played OLB.

I don't want you to give it up, I want you to keep an open mind, take into consideration all the information, and not believe that Mangini and Ryan positioning for Gocong was the end all be all.
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bulldog wrote:
Quote:
In coordinator - Jauronís scheme, the linebackers are used as the primary blitzers. In many of the nickel situations, Jauron goes with three defensive linemen and three linebackers, often blitzing Gocong.


Gocong was the guy to come OFF the field when the Browns went to the Nickel.

I did always think he could be a guy off the edge, i'm just stating what you are ignoring. The fact that 3 HC's never used him as a primary pass rusher or pass rushing specialist.


Gocong came off the field in Nickle sets, because he was not a Nickle LB and not a pass rushing de.

2 HC used him as an OLB.

Stop looking at a small data set and look at the entire picture with an open mind. Horton just might see it different than Mangini.
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AGain....


Im not nor have I ever said that Gocong is going to be some pass rushing monster for the Browns at OLB That so many fans are hung up on...

What I have said is that he has the size, experience, and skill set to potentially fill the vacant OLB depending upon how Horton sees the players fitting based on the available information that is out there...
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bulldog


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropkick_pride wrote:
bulldog wrote:
Quote:
In coordinator - Jauronís scheme, the linebackers are used as the primary blitzers. In many of the nickel situations, Jauron goes with three defensive linemen and three linebackers, often blitzing Gocong.


Gocong was the guy to come OFF the field when the Browns went to the Nickel.

I did always think he could be a guy off the edge, i'm just stating what you are ignoring. The fact that 3 HC's never used him as a primary pass rusher or pass rushing specialist.


Gocong came off the field in Nickle sets, because he was not a Nickle LB and not a pass rushing de.

2 HC used him as an OLB.

Stop looking at a small data set and look at the entire picture with an open mind. Horton just might see it different than Mangini.


I'm just adding to the conversation.

I've stated that I thought he would have been an OLB for us when the Browns traded for him. He could be this time around. Who knows. I just know he's good at 34 ILB, so why fix whats not broken??

And you claim he's to small to be a 43 DE, but he's 6'2 and 262 lbs. Thats plenty big to be a DE.
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ditchdigger


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where is Gocong going to get this additional explosiveness and fluidity to play outside from? Is that one of the benefits of having Achilles' Tendon reconstructive surgery?

Jamir Miller was one of the best pass-rushing linebackers in the NFL when he blew his Achilles', and was never the same player again. Gocong wasn't anywhere near his level pre-injury, and never before in his NFL career played ROLB in a 3-4.

There is a zero percent chance Gocong ends up the starting ROLB in this defense. I will sig bet that all day.
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