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3-4 player transition thread
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bulldog


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropkick_pride wrote:
Frostee Rucker will be 30 next season. He has never played in a 34 always a 43 DE, and came to CLE to start at 43 DE. He is 6-3 280 so he would be the smallest of the 34 DL group. He is one year into a FIVE year 20.5 million dollar contract...

I highly doubt he would be a starting 34 DE on the team. Plus, considering he came to the Browns to be a starter instead of backup/rotational player in a 43 Im not even sure he will want to stay in Cleveland as a backup in a system he doesnt fit. Add in that contract I wonder if he gets cut if the Browns cant trade him quickly.


So you think a second year player who also has never played in a 34 is a better option?

a DE in the 34, their main priority is to maintain gap control. Rucker does this as well as anyone in the league.

Winn on the other hand, is terrible at it.

Justin Smith never played in a 34 when SF went out and gave him a huge contract in FA, and he was 28 when he signed with them. And size wise, he was very similar to Rucker.

To me, Rucker is the undisputed starter at DE.

Rubin is strictly a NT. So is Hughes.

Taylor can play both.

Winn is a backup DE, until he learns the in's and out's of the game better. He can take over for Rucker is a few years.
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schuttje


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: 3-4 player transition thread Reply with quote

shoffma1999 wrote:
I could see us drafting a pass rushing OLB with our first pick, likely someone like Jarvis Jones. Then our defense will look like this:
LDE: Phil Taylor, Devin Taylor (4th Round Pick)
NT: Ahtyba Rubin, John Hughes
RDE: Billy Winn, Frostee Rucker
LOLB: Jabaal Sheard, Ricky Elmore/Emmanuel Stephens
SILB: James Michael-Johnson, Chris Gocong, L.J. Fort
WILB: D'Qwell Jackson, Craig Robertson
ROLB: Jarvis Jones (1st round pick), Emmanuel Acho
LCB: Joe Haden, Buster Skrine
FS: Jarius Byrd (FA pickup), Usama Young
SS: T.J. Ward, Ray Ventrone
RCB: Leon McFadden (3rd round pick), Sheldon Brown, Trevin Wade


Perfect
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bulldog wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
Frostee Rucker will be 30 next season. He has never played in a 34 always a 43 DE, and came to CLE to start at 43 DE. He is 6-3 280 so he would be the smallest of the 34 DL group. He is one year into a FIVE year 20.5 million dollar contract...

I highly doubt he would be a starting 34 DE on the team. Plus, considering he came to the Browns to be a starter instead of backup/rotational player in a 43 Im not even sure he will want to stay in Cleveland as a backup in a system he doesnt fit. Add in that contract I wonder if he gets cut if the Browns cant trade him quickly.


So you think a second year player who also has never played in a 34 is a better option?

a DE in the 34, their main priority is to maintain gap control. Rucker does this as well as anyone in the league.

Winn on the other hand, is terrible at it.

Justin Smith never played in a 34 when SF went out and gave him a huge contract in FA, and he was 28 when he signed with them. And size wise, he was very similar to Rucker.

To me, Rucker is the undisputed starter at DE.

Rubin is strictly a NT. So is Hughes.

Taylor can play both.

Winn is a backup DE, until he learns the in's and out's of the game better. He can take over for Rucker is a few years.


Comparing Frostee Rucker to Justin Smith seems a bit odd to me, and Rucker maintains gap control as well as anyone in the league??? Wow... okay, lets take the opinion out of the equation for a second and look at the situation by the facts. Rucker came to CLE because he wanted to be a full time starter playing in a 43 DE. Rucker had good production in 11 and 12 but that is it. He is going to be 30 years old and we all know Banners thoughts on age and production. Plus, he is on a big contract...


Id like to see the basis for your opinion that Hughes can not play as 2 gap, run stopping DE. I look at his size, skill set, nfl and college production, and I see a player that next to Rubin and Taylor could be a wall that shuts down other teams ability to run.

You do know that Winn played in 34 base sets at Boise right? Winn is definitely a rotational 34DE, just like he is a rotational DT/DE in a 43. He will be a great fit rotating in on passing downs for Hughes.
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bulldog


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropkick_pride wrote:
bulldog wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
Frostee Rucker will be 30 next season. He has never played in a 34 always a 43 DE, and came to CLE to start at 43 DE. He is 6-3 280 so he would be the smallest of the 34 DL group. He is one year into a FIVE year 20.5 million dollar contract...

I highly doubt he would be a starting 34 DE on the team. Plus, considering he came to the Browns to be a starter instead of backup/rotational player in a 43 Im not even sure he will want to stay in Cleveland as a backup in a system he doesnt fit. Add in that contract I wonder if he gets cut if the Browns cant trade him quickly.


So you think a second year player who also has never played in a 34 is a better option?

a DE in the 34, their main priority is to maintain gap control. Rucker does this as well as anyone in the league.

Winn on the other hand, is terrible at it.

Justin Smith never played in a 34 when SF went out and gave him a huge contract in FA, and he was 28 when he signed with them. And size wise, he was very similar to Rucker.

To me, Rucker is the undisputed starter at DE.

Rubin is strictly a NT. So is Hughes.

Taylor can play both.

Winn is a backup DE, until he learns the in's and out's of the game better. He can take over for Rucker is a few years.


Comparing Frostee Rucker to Justin Smith seems a bit odd to me, and Rucker maintains gap control as well as anyone in the league??? Wow... okay, lets take the opinion out of the equation for a second and look at the situation by the facts. Rucker came to CLE because he wanted to be a full time starter playing in a 43 DE. Rucker had good production in 11 and 12 but that is it. He is going to be 30 years old and we all know Banners thoughts on age and production. Plus, he is on a big contract...


Id like to see the basis for your opinion that Hughes can not play as 2 gap, run stopping DE. I look at his size, skill set, nfl and college production, and I see a player that next to Rubin and Taylor could be a wall that shuts down other teams ability to run.

Winn is definitely a rotational 34DE, just like he is a rotational DT/DE in a 43. He will be a great fit rotating in on passing downs for Hughes.


- I'm not comparing Justin Smith to Rucker as a player, I'm comparing their situations.

- Rucker is a run stopper. And a damn good one. Hes does that by controlling gaps, do you disagree?

-I can't disagree about Rucker's situation. Why he came here and the situation now have changed. And Banners history of older players. But that would suggest he would be cut or traded. If he still on the roster, that means he's probably still playing at a high level....= starting.

-I can't figure out how the above is a reason for Rucker to not start, but its OK to start a second year player who's strength is rushing the passer and weakness is stopping the run in a new scheme at a position he's never played before that relies on primarily playing the run and maintaining gap.

- Rucker's "big" contract looks like this.

................Base Salary ..S. Bonus .......Cap Hit
2012 ........1,000,000 1,000,000 -.......2,000,000
2013 ........2,500,000 1,000,000 -.......3,500,000
2014 ........3,650,000 1,000,000 - .......4,650,000
2015 ........3,500,000 1,000,000 - .......4,500,000
2016 ........4,100,000 1,000,000 - ........5,100,000

He most likely won't see the last year of that contract, but he could very well see years 3 and 4. Especially if he proves his worth this year, at a reasonable cost.

- I guess I shouldn't have grouped Hughes in the "strictly NT" part. To me, he is what a NT is supposed to be. He's an anchor against the run. maintains gap very well. Sucks at pass rushing. His lateral movement is limited (which is my main reason for him not being much of a DE)

I guess in certain down and distance situations, he could play DE, but I don't think he a full time DE now, or ever.

I have no doubt in my mind Rucker can play the 5-tech at an above average to a high level. Its just an opinion, but I see no reason to think otherwise.
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ditchdigger


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Brent Sobleski‏@brentsobleski

Expect Horton 34 to look like: DE - Taylor, NT - Rubin, DE - Winn/Rucker, Jack - Sheard, Buck - JMJ - Mike - DQwell, Will - No. 6 draft pick
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bulldog wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
bulldog wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
Frostee Rucker will be 30 next season. He has never played in a 34 always a 43 DE, and came to CLE to start at 43 DE. He is 6-3 280 so he would be the smallest of the 34 DL group. He is one year into a FIVE year 20.5 million dollar contract...

I highly doubt he would be a starting 34 DE on the team. Plus, considering he came to the Browns to be a starter instead of backup/rotational player in a 43 Im not even sure he will want to stay in Cleveland as a backup in a system he doesnt fit. Add in that contract I wonder if he gets cut if the Browns cant trade him quickly.


So you think a second year player who also has never played in a 34 is a better option?

a DE in the 34, their main priority is to maintain gap control. Rucker does this as well as anyone in the league.

Winn on the other hand, is terrible at it.

Justin Smith never played in a 34 when SF went out and gave him a huge contract in FA, and he was 28 when he signed with them. And size wise, he was very similar to Rucker.

To me, Rucker is the undisputed starter at DE.

Rubin is strictly a NT. So is Hughes.

Taylor can play both.

Winn is a backup DE, until he learns the in's and out's of the game better. He can take over for Rucker is a few years.


Comparing Frostee Rucker to Justin Smith seems a bit odd to me, and Rucker maintains gap control as well as anyone in the league??? Wow... okay, lets take the opinion out of the equation for a second and look at the situation by the facts. Rucker came to CLE because he wanted to be a full time starter playing in a 43 DE. Rucker had good production in 11 and 12 but that is it. He is going to be 30 years old and we all know Banners thoughts on age and production. Plus, he is on a big contract...


Id like to see the basis for your opinion that Hughes can not play as 2 gap, run stopping DE. I look at his size, skill set, nfl and college production, and I see a player that next to Rubin and Taylor could be a wall that shuts down other teams ability to run.

Winn is definitely a rotational 34DE, just like he is a rotational DT/DE in a 43. He will be a great fit rotating in on passing downs for Hughes.


- I'm not comparing Justin Smith to Rucker as a player, I'm comparing their situations.

- Rucker is a run stopper. And a damn good one. Hes does that by controlling gaps, do you disagree?

-I can't disagree about Rucker's situation. Why he came here and the situation now have changed. And Banners history of older players. But that would suggest he would be cut or traded. If he still on the roster, that means he's probably still playing at a high level....= starting.

-I can't figure out how the above is a reason for Rucker to not start, but its OK to start a second year player who's strength is rushing the passer and weakness is stopping the run in a new scheme at a position he's never played before that relies on primarily playing the run and maintaining gap.

- Rucker's "big" contract looks like this.

................Base Salary ..S. Bonus .......Cap Hit
2012 ........1,000,000 1,000,000 -.......2,000,000
2013 ........2,500,000 1,000,000 -.......3,500,000
2014 ........3,650,000 1,000,000 - .......4,650,000
2015 ........3,500,000 1,000,000 - .......4,500,000
2016 ........4,100,000 1,000,000 - ........5,100,000

He most likely won't see the last year of that contract, but he could very well see years 3 and 4. Especially if he proves his worth this year, at a reasonable cost.

- I guess I shouldn't have grouped Hughes in the "strictly NT" part. To me, he is what a NT is supposed to be. He's an anchor against the run. maintains gap very well. Sucks at pass rushing. His lateral movement is limited (which is my main reason for him not being much of a DE)

I guess in certain down and distance situations, he could play DE, but I don't think he a full time DE now, or ever.

I have no doubt in my mind Rucker can play the 5-tech at an above average to a high level. Its just an opinion, but I see no reason to think otherwise.



I think Rucker may be able to play in the 34, I really have much less issue with that aspect as its all guess work, but his situation makes it unlikely that he is here to find out...

Hughes lateral movement doesnt both me. I think he fits on the strong side to eat up blockers for Sheard? on his left, and DQ? on his back right.


Opposing teams are going to have fun trying to run against the Browns front 7. Imagine if the Browns draft Star at 6.... yikes.
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Quote:
Brent Sobleski‏@brentsobleski

Expect Horton 34 to look like: DE - Taylor, NT - Rubin, DE - Winn/Rucker, Jack - Sheard, Buck - JMJ - Mike - DQwell, Will - No. 6 draft pick



Pretty standard opinion i think.

It continues to underestimate Hughes as most everyone else did before the draft (myself included). Rubin is a no-brainer at NT. I think the real reason Hughes plays DE versus NT is based on his and Rubin's ability to play more or less snaps... He is listing "Winn/Rucker" most likely since Winn played in a 34 base sets already and Rucker never has.

Horton had both bigger LBs on the outside with the Cards. On this team that is Sheard and Gocong. JMJ played both inside and outside at Nevada and I agree he is the other ILB. Sheard and DQ are no-brainers

Draft pick is completely up in the air. His guess is as good as anyones...
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depending upon FA of course...

after looking at the front 7 closer I think Milliner at 6 might not be such a bad idea after all... and then follow it up with a FS (Rambo?) in the 3rd.

FA is going to tell us all a lot this year.
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roger murdock


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lombardi has also had a lot of success drafting DBs in the first round. Turner, Woodson, Scrabbles, and a few other good ones. Milliner wouldn't shock me on bit.
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris Gocong.

Found some nice tidbits on rotoworld.... from the spring/summer when Gocong was brought in...

Philadelphia Daily News wrote:
Browns GM Tom Heckert indicated that he envisions Chris Gocong as a pass rusher first and foremost in the team's 3-4 defense... I believe this move will give him a chance to show off a lot of the skills that allowed him to record more than 40 sacks in college."


Akron Beacon-Journal wrote:
GM Tom Heckert envisions Gocong as a pass rusher, but coach Eric Mangini is placing an unusually big emphasis on versatility.


Cleveland Plain Dealer wrote:
The Browns believe that Gocong will be a factor against the run, indicating that they are comfortable using him as an inside linebacker. Still, Gocong's main role will be to rush the passer off the edge out of the 3-4. That's the skill that got him drafted 71st overall in 2006.


Cleveland Plain Dealer wrote:
Chris Gocong has been lining up with the first-team at inside linebacker next to D'Qwell Jackson early in camp. Look for it to stay that way, too. Matt Roth and Scott Fujita are locked in as the starting outside linebackers, so Gocong won't see much time as an edge rusher.





Now obviously there are some scheme issues with what Mangini/Ryan decided to do, but I think the vast majority of posters here think that Heckert is smarter than Mangini/Ryan on personell. Even though Heckert is not here could Gocong stay at OLB in the 34 inside of moving back inside like under Mangini/Ryan? We all know he played DE and was very productive in college and then OLB in the 43...

Sheard 6-2, 255, 4.68, 8th ranked DE that year
Gocong 6-2, 263, 4.70, 9th ranked DE that year

And on the surface he matches pretty well what Horton had in Arizona...

Quintin Groves 6-3, 265, 4.53, 2nd ranked olb that year
Sam Acho 6-2, 257, 4.67, 7th ranked olb that year
then back up Zach Nash 6-4, 260, 4.78, 46th ranked DE.

Horton's starting ILBs at ARI were smaller - 230 and 240... that is DQ, JMJ, Robertson, Fort, Carder...

I think its very possible. He might not be the elite edge rusher that many of us want, but he could do an excellent job and it does drop the level of need for a starting olb and allow the team to draft closer to bpa at 6...
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DaWg_LB.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 3-4 player transition thread Reply with quote

shoffma1999 wrote:
I could see us drafting a pass rushing OLB with our first pick, likely someone like Jarvis Jones. Then our defense will look like this:

LDE: Phil Taylor, Devin Taylor (4th Round Pick)
NT: Ahtyba Rubin, John Hughes
RDE: Billy Winn, Frostee Rucker

LOLB: Jabaal Sheard, Ricky Elmore/Emmanuel Stephens
SILB: James Michael-Johnson, Chris Gocong, L.J. Fort
WILB: D'Qwell Jackson, Craig Robertson
ROLB: Jarvis Jones (1st round pick), Emmanuel Acho

LCB: Joe Haden, Buster Skrine
FS: Jarius Byrd (FA pickup), Usama Young
SS: T.J. Ward, Ray Ventrone
RCB: Leon McFadden (3rd round pick), Sheldon Brown, Trevin Wade


Hate to critique here.....Devin Taylor is NOT a 3-4 D-lineman..he would get MURDERED trying to play a 5 tech in the NFL....The kid from SMU is the way we want to go if we drafting a 5 tech.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropkick_pride wrote:



Now obviously there are some scheme issues with what Mangini/Ryan decided to do, but I think the vast majority of posters here think that Heckert is smarter than Mangini/Ryan on personell. Even though Heckert is not here could Gocong stay at OLB in the 34 inside of moving back inside like under Mangini/Ryan? We all know he played DE and was very productive in college and then OLB in the 43...

Sheard 6-2, 255, 4.68, 8th ranked DE that year
Gocong 6-2, 263, 4.70, 9th ranked DE that year

And on the surface he matches pretty well what Horton had in Arizona...

Quintin Groves 6-3, 265, 4.53, 2nd ranked olb that year
Sam Acho 6-2, 257, 4.67, 7th ranked olb that year
then back up Zach Nash 6-4, 260, 4.78, 46th ranked DE.

Horton's starting ILBs at ARI were smaller - 230 and 240... that is DQ, JMJ, Robertson, Fort, Carder...

I think its very possible. He might not be the elite edge rusher that many of us want, but he could do an excellent job and it does drop the level of need for a starting olb and allow the team to draft closer to bpa at 6...


I don't know, Heckert also thought Jayme Mitchell was the best pass rusher on the team so not to knock his personnel prowess, but I trust Mangini more to place players in the best position to succeed, in his defense at least.
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LETSGOBROWNIES


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bulldog wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
Frostee Rucker will be 30 next season. He has never played in a 34 always a 43 DE, and came to CLE to start at 43 DE. He is 6-3 280 so he would be the smallest of the 34 DL group. He is one year into a FIVE year 20.5 million dollar contract...

I highly doubt he would be a starting 34 DE on the team. Plus, considering he came to the Browns to be a starter instead of backup/rotational player in a 43 Im not even sure he will want to stay in Cleveland as a backup in a system he doesnt fit. Add in that contract I wonder if he gets cut if the Browns cant trade him quickly.


So you think a second year player who also has never played in a 34 is a better option?

a DE in the 34, their main priority is to maintain gap control. Rucker does this as well as anyone in the league.

Winn on the other hand, is terrible at it.

Justin Smith never played in a 34 when SF went out and gave him a huge contract in FA, and he was 28 when he signed with them. And size wise, he was very similar to Rucker.

To me, Rucker is the undisputed starter at DE.

Rubin is strictly a NT. So is Hughes.

Taylor can play both.

Winn is a backup DE, until he learns the in's and out's of the game better. He can take over for Rucker is a few years.


I agree with most of this with only a few differences of opinion.

First, I think Winn would be a pretty decent 5 tech. He didn't do much in the way of 2 gap play this past season, but I think he has the ability to play it in time.

For most of the season his role appeared to be to use said athleticism to attack a single gap and try to wreak havoc.

Also, I think Hughes is much more athletic than some want to give him credit for. He *may* be able to be a quality backup at both NT and DE depending on down and distance.

Also, I think Rucker would fit in very well in the 3-4. Justin Smith is a nice point btw.

Nice points bulldog.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 3-4 player transition thread Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ether wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:



Now obviously there are some scheme issues with what Mangini/Ryan decided to do, but I think the vast majority of posters here think that Heckert is smarter than Mangini/Ryan on personell. Even though Heckert is not here could Gocong stay at OLB in the 34 inside of moving back inside like under Mangini/Ryan? We all know he played DE and was very productive in college and then OLB in the 43...

Sheard 6-2, 255, 4.68, 8th ranked DE that year
Gocong 6-2, 263, 4.70, 9th ranked DE that year

And on the surface he matches pretty well what Horton had in Arizona...

Quintin Groves 6-3, 265, 4.53, 2nd ranked olb that year
Sam Acho 6-2, 257, 4.67, 7th ranked olb that year
then back up Zach Nash 6-4, 260, 4.78, 46th ranked DE.

Horton's starting ILBs at ARI were smaller - 230 and 240... that is DQ, JMJ, Robertson, Fort, Carder...

I think its very possible. He might not be the elite edge rusher that many of us want, but he could do an excellent job and it does drop the level of need for a starting olb and allow the team to draft closer to bpa at 6...


I don't know, Heckert also thought Jayme Mitchell was the best pass rusher on the team so not to knock his personnel prowess, but I trust Mangini more to place players in the best position to succeed, in his defense at least.


haha good point about Mitchell. That was weird!!!

Ryan's scheme was different than Horton's, and also Mangini placed such a high value on older veteran players that the younger guys didnt get much of a shot. Note in the article's comment where it said Roth and Fujita has the OLB spots locked, which left Gocong competing for an inside spot in order to play. I think most of us would agree that neither Roth or Fujita were the edge rushers the we are looking for... I liked lots of stuff from Mangini but that was not one of them.

I think Horton will take a fresh look at the LBs and place them according to how he wants them, which opens the chance for Gocong to stay on the outside. Gocong has more experience playing on the outside than the inside, and I think their is a good chance Horton keeps him out there.
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