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Arrowhead86


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: The Sutton Defense Reply with quote

So over on AP someone shared this cool link discussion Rex Ryan's version of defense. It is from 2010 and certainly should provide some of the principles Sutton learned while working with Ryan.

Now remember as you read this, this represents A recent influence, not all his defensive philosophy is shaped solely from his time with Ryan. Added to that I'd expect the ideas from Gibbs and Thomas will represent a new evolution in his overall mindset to running a defense as well.

This just gives a frame of reference. Enjoy.

http://www.scardraft.com/RyanHybrid46.html
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KC_Guy


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice explanation ... and it mentions Justin Houston and Quan Surdivant as well suited 2011 rookies for that defense.

Well, we all know a thing or two about Houston, and Sturdivant paid a short visit to the Chiefs practice squad late last season ... albeit, he wasn't even signed to a future contract.

Looking at the current roster: Berry playing upfield again most of the time? Guess if the Chiefs go that way they definitely need to get some additionsl FS on board.

BTW: Who - without googling - knows where the term "46 Defense" comes from???

I knew the reason, not the name.
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Mikek163


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KC_Guy wrote:
Nice explanation ... and it mentions Justin Houston and Quan Surdivant as well suited 2011 rookies for that defense.

Well, we all know a thing or two about Houston, and Sturdivant paid a short visit to the Chiefs practice squad late last season ... albeit, he wasn't even signed to a future contract.

Looking at the current roster: Berry playing upfield again most of the time? Guess if the Chiefs go that way they definitely need to get some additionsl FS on board.

BTW: Who - without googling - knows where the term "46 Defense" comes from???

I knew the reason, not the name.


I feel like I am being to obvious by saying 4 down linemen and 6 linebackers.
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KC_Guy


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikek163 wrote:

I feel like I am being to obvious by saying 4 down linemen and 6 linebackers.


Nope, he 46 actually starts with a 3-4 lineup
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Rearviewmirror


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KC_Guy wrote:
Mikek163 wrote:

I feel like I am being to obvious by saying 4 down linemen and 6 linebackers.


Nope, he 46 actually starts with a 3-4 lineup


Da Bears
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KC_Guy


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote=]"Rearviewmirror"
Da Bears[/quote]


yep - but where does the name come from???

jimmydee - you knew all that guys ... come on ...
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Mikek163


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KC_Guy wrote:
Mikek163 wrote:

I feel like I am being to obvious by saying 4 down linemen and 6 linebackers.


Nope, he 46 actually starts with a 3-4 lineup


Learn something new every day. Thanks to Doug Plank.
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Arrowhead86


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had to look it up.

Back to the matter at hand.. I do wonder reading that info if we should expect Berry up in the formation a lot like we did this year. However, I kinda liked Hartmann in that role and thought late in the year he was making a number of plays out of that position.

Do people think Hartmann can be that safety and Berry can move to FS, pushing Lewis into a backup/3rd safety role?

Hartmann is 6'2 and 206 and runs a 4.6 for a frame of reference.

Or maybe drafting a SS for this role and moving Berry rather than drafting a FS?

Hmm.
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Chiefer


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asked about the Rex Ryan defense in the Jets forum, some quotes. A bit different from the article posted

Quote:
You did ask for Ryan's defense so here it is: it relies on a pass rush that begins with the DL and is aided by exotic blitz packages from LBs, safeties and even corners. Some times the Jets run a lot of zone blitzing, particularly when the pass rush is getting to the QB (2009), but there's also a lot of man coverage from the corners. Considering our personnel consists of two of the best man cover corners in the L, we use a lot of man coverage as well with a safety usually to blanket the corner that needs the help (the #2 usually.)

We run a 3-4, but Rex loves his DL and likes to use a lot of different DL. Our DL has a huge rotation and shows plenty of 4 and 5 man fronts.

Now, whether Sutton actually implements this in your defense remains to be seen. He seems to be quite alright running a 4-3 or a 3-4...so it will probably depend on what Andy wants to run.

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nicfre2011


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiefer wrote:
Asked about the Rex Ryan defense in the Jets forum, some quotes. A bit different from the article posted

Quote:
You did ask for Ryan's defense so here it is: it relies on a pass rush that begins with the DL and is aided by exotic blitz packages from LBs, safeties and even corners. Some times the Jets run a lot of zone blitzing, particularly when the pass rush is getting to the QB (2009), but there's also a lot of man coverage from the corners. Considering our personnel consists of two of the best man cover corners in the L, we use a lot of man coverage as well with a safety usually to blanket the corner that needs the help (the #2 usually.)

We run a 3-4, but Rex loves his DL and likes to use a lot of different DL. Our DL has a huge rotation and shows plenty of 4 and 5 man fronts.

Now, whether Sutton actually implements this in your defense remains to be seen. He seems to be quite alright running a 4-3 or a 3-4...so it will probably depend on what Andy wants to run.


Yeah, that is a departure from the original posting. The comment you quoted seems to jive with what has been the M.O. of the Baltimore defense all the way back to the days of Rex Ryan as DC.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 46 defense originated from the dominant 80s Bears defenses. The base defense started out as a 3-4 and developed into a "kill the quarterback scheme". Seriously. The idea behind the defense was to rush between 4 and 6 players on every single down and sometimes, even more than that. The point was literally to hit the QB enough times to injure him and force him out of the game, then do the same to the backup qb. But the term "46 defense" refers to the number of rushers on the majority of plays. For the vast majority of snaps in 1985, the Bears had 6 defensive lineman in a 3 point stance, ready to kill QBs and demolish RBs. It was incredibly entertaining to watch, but there's a reason why you don't see the 46 bases often; it requires elite talent at almost every position on defense. Takes a ton of versatility, too.
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KC_Guy


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those too lazy to look it up:


You may have noticed the pivotal role the SS plays in this scheme. When Buddy Ryan developed the 46 in Chicago his starting safety was Doug Plank who's jersey number was, yes, you guessed correctly, 46.
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DT58_lives_on


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another little tid-bit I read somewhere about the 4-6. When young defensive coaches are learning schemes, they almost all read a book on the 4-6 defense.

That book was written by - Rex Ryan...the guy who trained/mentored Sutton for the last few years. Take that for what it's worth.
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jimmydee


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dang, KC_Guy, by the time I got to my puter this AM you guys had most of it figured out. I think Bud Carson also had some significant input into the 46 and yes, it was Doug Plank (46), that was most of the initial energy behind it.

It was primarily designed, as stated here, to rip off the QB's head regardless of completed passes or not, just get him out of the game. Talk about "Bounty Gate".....Goddell would have a hay day with this.

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OILCHIEFS


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiefer wrote:
Asked about the Rex Ryan defense in the Jets forum, some quotes. A bit different from the article posted

Quote:
You did ask for Ryan's defense so here it is: it relies on a pass rush that begins with the DL and is aided by exotic blitz packages from LBs, safeties and even corners. Some times the Jets run a lot of zone blitzing, particularly when the pass rush is getting to the QB (2009), but there's also a lot of man coverage from the corners. Considering our personnel consists of two of the best man cover corners in the L, we use a lot of man coverage as well with a safety usually to blanket the corner that needs the help (the #2 usually.)

We run a 3-4, but Rex loves his DL and likes to use a lot of different DL. Our DL has a huge rotation and shows plenty of 4 and 5 man fronts.

Now, whether Sutton actually implements this in your defense remains to be seen. He seems to be quite alright running a 4-3 or a 3-4...so it will probably depend on what Andy wants to run.



One of things that i haven't heard much about is that we already have that one dominant CB to work with a lot of blitz heavy schemes. Flowers isn't Revis but he is one of the best at shutting down the top WR's. He'll be a key piece in any of our schemes and will allow us to blitz heavy if we want.
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