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Is it the coaching? The player? Or the team?
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thestonedkoala


Joined: 28 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:07 am    Post subject: Is it the coaching? The player? Or the team? Reply with quote

Watching Colin Kaepernick demolish the Packers and Andy Dalton doing what he is doing for the Bengals, I got to wonder how come they are this good? I remember Kaepernick and Dalton being picked alive during the draft (schooling, size, arm strength) and they fell to the top of the 2nd round. Usually the 2nd round is where QBs go to die but both Kaepernick and Dalton are outplaying and outproducing the three that came after Newton (Locker, Ponder and Gabbert). Now you got Russell Wilson doing what he's doing in Seattle, so I got to wonder if it isn't the players but the coaching as well?
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eman9416


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The difference is that all of the successful quarterbacks you just mentioned all have significant talent around, much better than what Ponder, Locker and Gabbert were stuck with. Cam had a bad year this year and has struggled to win meaningful games on a consistent basis, though is supporting cast doesn't give him much help. Dalton, Wilson and Kap have very solid teams around them that can pick up the slack when needed. I would say it would be better to compare them in 3-4 years when they have had time to get talent that fits their skills around them.

I especially think Dalton might be one of the most overrated quarterbacks in the league. He has exceptional weapons around him and yet they can't beat anybody significant. Plus he looked just awful in that playoff game
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LostRoadStone


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalton isn't any different than Ponder, he's just got aj green.

But I think coaching and talent around them have a huge part in a quarterbacks development.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kaep has a lot of talent on offense and one of the best defenses in the league. He also has one of the best QB and offensive minds in the game coaching him in Harbaugh. Harbaugh has had brilliant Qbs where he coached from the University of San Diego, to Stanford and now to the 49ers. He is a coach with HOF potential.

Dalton has AJ Green. Put him in MN, he will largely be doing what Ponder is doing. Relying on the underneath passing game and not having a threat who can take the top off defenses.

Ponder wouldnt be having the success that Kaep is in SF, because they are completely different QBs. But he would still be regarded as a QB. Same goes for Dalton, he would find success in SF too.

The Vikings situation hasnt been ideal for a young QB. Young QBs need great receiving threats and defense, a great run game isnt that instrumental as those two other aspects.
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thestonedkoala


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know the AJ Green argument but:

11 TDs out of 27 came from Green. So 16 had to come from somewhere else. He already has 47 TDs and 7,067 yards in passing in 2 years.

I think Dalton would have been a better choice regardless.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thestonedkoala wrote:
I think Dalton would have been a better choice regardless.

so... another thread to knock Ponder, is it? or at least compare him to other players?
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thestonedkoala wrote:
I know the AJ Green argument but:

11 TDs out of 27 came from Green. So 16 had to come from somewhere else. He already has 47 TDs and 7,067 yards in passing in 2 years.

I think Dalton would have been a better choice regardless.


As we saw with Randy Moss, you cant ignore the coverages and attention Green draws. It makes the QBs job easier and allows the other receivers to get less attention.
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wcblack34


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
thestonedkoala wrote:
I know the AJ Green argument but:

11 TDs out of 27 came from Green. So 16 had to come from somewhere else. He already has 47 TDs and 7,067 yards in passing in 2 years.

I think Dalton would have been a better choice regardless.


As we saw with Randy Moss, you cant ignore the coverages and attention Green draws. It makes the QBs job easier and allows the other receivers to get less attention.


Absolutely. Moss made Jeff George, Randall Cunningham, and Daunte Culpepper, into borderline superstars.

Kaepernick was tailor-made to shred the Green Bay defense. Harbaugh does his best to play to his QB's strengths, whether it's Kaepernick or Alex Smith.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wcblack34 wrote:
Absolutely. Moss made Jeff George, Randall Cunningham, and Daunte Culpepper, into borderline superstars.

and helped the already exceptional Tom Brady have one one the best seasons ever for a NFL QB.

i don't understand what this thread is about...
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SteelKing728


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you put a QB in a good system with good coaches, along with strong offensive talent around them, then you can help your QB succeed early.

Ponder didn't put up the bulk stats this year, but he has progressed.

I don't know the future of Bill Musgrave, but if the coaching can improve, and we can upgrade our WR status, then I think Ponder will take the next step.
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CriminalMind


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cant see how anyone can be confident in saying who is actually better between Ponder or Dalton.

Theres not a whole lot between them thus far in my opinion.
We spent a higher pick on the position, thats it right now, so the argument can be made that CIN is getting more bang for their buck.
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HighHopes


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is just a guess but I feel like in drafts people over analyze. Also I honestly feel its luck lol.
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VikeSince70


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is interesting to bring up I think. Bevell in Seattle is thriving so you have to think at some point it is the mix of all 3. I do not think people have an exact science to who will be great and who will not be. It is at best an educated guess based on past baselines of players in the same position. I think what we are seeing though is the option Qb's are starting to change that educated guess per position to educated guess in a specific mold, such as option Qb.

Bear with me on this. The game has developed into a passing game and the QB has become more relevant. The thing is though the game still has the need for rushing yards to keep the defenses from overloading on pass rushers and shutting the passing game down. Enter the option QB where they scramble and/or run for those rushing yards needed for them to have enough time to throw.

I found it interesting when I heard an announcer say Wilson reminded them of Fran Tarkenton. Defenses have yet to catch up to this fad yet, who knows maybe it is here to stay or maybe, just maybe, it is a gimmick that coaches are taking advantage of until the defenses catch up to the gimmick.

Until then the teams/coaches who have drafted option Qb's and made their offense function around these rookie Qb's they will have the illusion that they knew for a certainty they had their HOF QB Smile Or maybe this is where the NFL is headed and those coaches have just gotten ahead of the curve.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, a player shines brightest when you get a perfect storm of player talent, surrounding talent, and coaching/scheme.
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thestonedkoala


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VikeSince70 wrote:
This is interesting to bring up I think. Bevell in Seattle is thriving so you have to think at some point it is the mix of all 3.


Holy crap forgot Bevell was in Seattle with Russell.

It's not necessarily about Ponder but what is going right with other QBs and how to replicate that success.

BTW Cunningham was a superstar in Philadelphia.
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