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2013 Raider Mock Off-Season
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22834
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Goodson, Riddick and Stewart.

Prepare to be ranked bottom of the league in rushing again. That is awful. As much as I like Riddick and Goody, they are both at best change of pace backs.

That FA would cost a small fortune the Raiders wouldn't spend. Too unrealistic for my liking.


If our line performs well, I think Goodson is capable of being a solid back. That's why I focused more on the line opposed to bringing in players who couldn't perform no matter how good they are w/ the line we have currently.

How are these FA's too expensive? I'd like to know what people would think expected contracts for those players are. When I did this, I didn't feel there was anyone besides Bushrod that would cost much. Knighton and Keller could but I don't see it being unreasonable. Then again, I didn't have a ton of time to research their current deals and how much they would potentially cost.


Basically, Free Agency you overpay for most 'named' players. They might demand top dollar, but they won't be cheap.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
holyghost wrote:

3rd is the highest, yeah. But even if we net a 4th, I really don't see s trading him for a 4th right now. Plus I don't know if anyone here appreciates it, but the team and staff do - having him for another year, then getting virtually the same draft pick as a trade would net, that's something the staff will likely want. He's a disappointment, but now that ZBS is up in the air he is still our best offensive player with a chance to possibly perform again. He's not going anywhere unless a trade offer is too good to pass up..


But it's also quite possible we net less than this. It's pretty hard to assess how much teams would be willing to spend on McFadden at this point. RBs have a hard time cashing in on a 2nd contract because they typically can't sustain their level of play for very long. So a RB with McFadden's injury history might not get that big of a contract.


I think a 4th is pretty likely. Someone will pay McFadden at least a reasonable salary, most likely because more than one team would be serious about him. Even if we net a 5th, it's still better to get a 5th and a year from the guy than to trade him right now for what would likely be alot less than anyone thinks. Meaning, a 5th or even worse. RBs have low value in general, even lower when they are unproductive and oft injured..
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 12363
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Jtagg, I agree with you having serious doubts about Pryor as a pro passer. But if you can't say to yourself it's a 90+% certainty he's 2nd string next year, as the staff has almost conceded at this point while mentioning the need to get him involved, then you have to consider you are tilting into the realm of "bias" against him. Have your opinion, but don't be biased man. You're an intelligent poster and your feelings on Pryor are valid, but don't go too far into being biased because it only marginalizes the validity of your own opinion and gives your opponents more ammo.


Where are the reports saying he's there or at least 90%?? I have not read them. Again, I am basing my thoughts off how he threw the ball during the SD game and it wasn't well. He had moments but he always had those at OSU also. He made some great passes but he made more terrible ones than I wish to see. I saw the exact same thing. Sure, he could get better but I don't see anything to indicate he will based off what I've seen in the past 4 years. It's the exact same player.

I try not to think of myself as bias the least bit although it may come across that way at times. I feel I always have proof or a basis to go off of and I'm not just throwing crap into the wind. I do appreciate the compliment though. Thanks! I know my thoughts don't always go w/ the norm but I think that's b/c I'm so used to this team being bad and I realize it's the personnel and some people just don't want to admit it haha. FTR, I always hope I'm wrong when I trash a player... obviously. I'd much rather be wrong than right.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 12363
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
bitty wrote:
Knighton is a must have for the Raiders. He'll keep the MLB clean and able to flow to the ball.


He lost his starting spot this season so i wouldn't say he's a must have. I'm not against it because i think he could come relatively cheap but he'd just be a role player. There are other options to fill the same role. Sammie Lee Hill or Pat Sims, for example.


Exactly. I'm trying to figure out where people are saying my expensive free agents will come from. I was giving the Knighton the benefit of the doubt but I don't think he'll be expensive. I could see Bushrod costing a pretty penny but the dude is young and if him and Veldheer could hold those spots down, we'd have bookends for 6-7 years. Who wouldn't want that?

Dorsey won't be the cheapest but he won't cost a ton either. Very middle of the pack IMO and Keller could be expensive but he's coming off a down season so I think we could get him cheaper than his actual value would be.... and he's a solid player.

You're a big "money" guy. How do the FAs here look to you in terms of value and having the cap room to sign them via the cuts that were made?
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Goodson, Riddick and Stewart.

Prepare to be ranked bottom of the league in rushing again. That is awful. As much as I like Riddick and Goody, they are both at best change of pace backs.

That FA would cost a small fortune the Raiders wouldn't spend. Too unrealistic for my liking.


If our line performs well, I think Goodson is capable of being a solid back. That's why I focused more on the line opposed to bringing in players who couldn't perform no matter how good they are w/ the line we have currently.

How are these FA's too expensive? I'd like to know what people would think expected contracts for those players are. When I did this, I didn't feel there was anyone besides Bushrod that would cost much. Knighton and Keller could but I don't see it being unreasonable. Then again, I didn't have a ton of time to research their current deals and how much they would potentially cost.


Basically, Free Agency you overpay for most 'named' players. They might demand top dollar, but they won't be cheap.


I understand Bushrod will cost money and he'll be worth it b/c I know it won't be an "Al contract". Reggie is a smart enough guy where if he feels the value isn't there, it won't happen.

Again, I just don't see too many players really demanding that much money but I have admitted many times that contracts and the monetary fundamentals of the game are not my specialty.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Jtagg, I agree with you having serious doubts about Pryor as a pro passer. But if you can't say to yourself it's a 90+% certainty he's 2nd string next year, as the staff has almost conceded at this point while mentioning the need to get him involved, then you have to consider you are tilting into the realm of "bias" against him. Have your opinion, but don't be biased man. You're an intelligent poster and your feelings on Pryor are valid, but don't go too far into being biased because it only marginalizes the validity of your own opinion and gives your opponents more ammo.


Where are the reports saying he's there or at least 90%?? I have not read them. Again, I am basing my thoughts off how he threw the ball during the SD game and it wasn't well. He had moments but he always had those at OSU also. He made some great passes but he made more terrible ones than I wish to see. I saw the exact same thing. Sure, he could get better but I don't see anything to indicate he will based off what I've seen in the past 4 years. It's the exact same player.

I try not to think of myself as bias the least bit although it may come across that way at times. I feel I always have proof or a basis to go off of and I'm not just throwing crap into the wind. I do appreciate the compliment though. Thanks! I know my thoughts don't always go w/ the norm but I think that's b/c I'm so used to this team being bad and I realize it's the personnel and some people just don't want to admit it haha. FTR, I always hope I'm wrong when I trash a player... obviously. I'd much rather be wrong than right.


There's no reports saying it. Allen himself said he has to find a way to get him involved. I'd take that as a sign he's definitely gonna make the team, ya know? And if he intends to truly get him involved, it cannot come at 3rd string because that's the emergency QB who has playing limitations. Any involvement he has must basically come from the 2nd string slot.

Leinart is FA, and really only a "fit" for an offense now gone. Considering Pryor leapfrogged him mid week to start, I'd say Leinart is gone. Really. How much do you think they think of Leinart?

How he threw the ball during the SD game is all well and good and up for criticism, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. He brings another element and as far as 2nd string QBs go that's more than you get out of most of them. You can criticize whatever you want of him man, but he did produce 21 points. And those 21 points were his too. Not freebies, long YAC TDs or 1 yard scrambles. Passing or otherwise, ultimately what is on the scoreboard is the only thing that counts. Most 2nd stringers cannot produce a damn thing - refer back to Leinart. So I would say all in all unless they add a significant addition at QB which I would say is an unexpected move, I would go ahead and give it a 90% chance he will be the 2nd string guy.

I get to 90+% by adding up all the simple factors pointing to it, and the pretty obscure factors against it. There's still the 10% where we add another QB. But considering the needs at so many other positions and limited resources to fill them, I think QB will be a holdover position for us this year. Does some random guy come in and beat out Pryor? Maybe, but I don't see it.

Let's not forget how unimportant 2nd string QB is. Unless the starter gets hurt AND you have a pressing need to keep winning games (i.e. playoff hunt), the position is really a developmental non factor or desperation insurance. Almost any team is totally screwed if they have to play the 2nd string QB for a period of time.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 12363
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Jtagg, I agree with you having serious doubts about Pryor as a pro passer. But if you can't say to yourself it's a 90+% certainty he's 2nd string next year, as the staff has almost conceded at this point while mentioning the need to get him involved, then you have to consider you are tilting into the realm of "bias" against him. Have your opinion, but don't be biased man. You're an intelligent poster and your feelings on Pryor are valid, but don't go too far into being biased because it only marginalizes the validity of your own opinion and gives your opponents more ammo.


Where are the reports saying he's there or at least 90%?? I have not read them. Again, I am basing my thoughts off how he threw the ball during the SD game and it wasn't well. He had moments but he always had those at OSU also. He made some great passes but he made more terrible ones than I wish to see. I saw the exact same thing. Sure, he could get better but I don't see anything to indicate he will based off what I've seen in the past 4 years. It's the exact same player.

I try not to think of myself as bias the least bit although it may come across that way at times. I feel I always have proof or a basis to go off of and I'm not just throwing crap into the wind. I do appreciate the compliment though. Thanks! I know my thoughts don't always go w/ the norm but I think that's b/c I'm so used to this team being bad and I realize it's the personnel and some people just don't want to admit it haha. FTR, I always hope I'm wrong when I trash a player... obviously. I'd much rather be wrong than right.


There's no reports saying it. Allen himself said he has to find a way to get him involved. I'd take that as a sign he's definitely gonna make the team, ya know? And if he intends to truly get him involved, it cannot come at 3rd string because that's the emergency QB who has playing limitations. Any involvement he has must basically come from the 2nd string slot.

Leinart is FA, and really only a "fit" for an offense now gone. Considering Pryor leapfrogged him mid week to start, I'd say Leinart is gone. Really. How much do you think they think of Leinart?

How he threw the ball during the SD game is all well and good and up for criticism, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. He brings another element and as far as 2nd string QBs go that's more than you get out of most of them. You can criticize whatever you want of him man, but he did produce 21 points. And those 21 points were his too. Not freebies, long YAC TDs or 1 yard scrambles. Passing or otherwise, ultimately what is on the scoreboard is the only thing that counts. Most 2nd stringers cannot produce a damn thing - refer back to Leinart. So I would say all in all unless they add a significant addition at QB which I would say is an unexpected move, I would go ahead and give it a 90% chance he will be the 2nd string guy.

I get to 90+% by adding up all the simple factors pointing to it, and the pretty obscure factors against it. There's still the 10% where we add another QB. But considering the needs at so many other positions and limited resources to fill them, I think QB will be a holdover position for us this year. Does some random guy come in and beat out Pryor? Maybe, but I don't see it.

Let's not forget how unimportant 2nd string QB is. Unless the starter gets hurt AND you have a pressing need to keep winning games (i.e. playoff hunt), the position is really a developmental non factor or desperation insurance. Almost any team is totally screwed if they have to play the 2nd string QB for a period of time.


I don't want to turn the thread this way. I'm not getting into garbage time or not garbage time or ineffectiveness during the game. I've said that numerous times and I've said why I didn't care about stats for the game and there's a good reason for it.

I'd rather focus on the team I laid out as a whole and not discuss who the number 2 QB should be. I think you'll understand.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3813
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
bitty wrote:
Knighton is a must have for the Raiders. He'll keep the MLB clean and able to flow to the ball.


He lost his starting spot this season so i wouldn't say he's a must have. I'm not against it because i think he could come relatively cheap but he'd just be a role player. There are other options to fill the same role. Sammie Lee Hill or Pat Sims, for example.


I think it was Becouse he was out of shape not poor play.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 6473
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't see your FA because of the color choice.
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Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 12363
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
I can't see your FA because of the color choice.


My bad. I thought the green looked too much like the traditional black text so I chose something light. I'll go through it and change the text to something else a little less chaotic.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 15251
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

- was a sims fan about 5 yrs ago imo he is a 2nd stringer. good depth.
- dont really want star imo he is too inconsistent for that high of a pick
- dont want to move jv and or pay big bucks for bushrod
- redick and goody are kinda the same back and im not really big on redick
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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ChaRisMa


Joined: 08 Mar 2007
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Location: @_G_Tom
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I popped over to check in on big Reg being a Packer fan--I think you guys might be a little out of sync with how he's probably building that team. You should be having a fire sale on veteran players with value and cutting the big contracts that aren't producing. Build through the draft, believe in Big Reg. Hes got to pick out the core pieces to build with. The previous GM set him back two years.
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oakdb36


Joined: 01 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChaRisMa wrote:
I popped over to check in on big Reg being a Packer fan--I think you guys might be a little out of sync with how he's probably building that team. You should be having a fire sale on veteran players with value and cutting the big contracts that aren't producing. Build through the draft, believe in Big Reg. Hes got to pick out the core pieces to build with. The previous GM set him back two years.


How are we out of sync? That"s exactly what we'd expect and want. Whether it can happen this year is where we disagree.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChaRisMa wrote:
I popped over to check in on big Reg being a Packer fan--I think you guys might be a little out of sync with how he's probably building that team. You should be having a fire sale on veteran players with value and cutting the big contracts that aren't producing. Build through the draft, believe in Big Reg. Hes got to pick out the core pieces to build with. The previous GM set him back two years.


I believe that's what has happened here. The only real big contracts left w/ my mock are Palmer b/c he's the best QB option available and he's got the potential to lead this team to victories w/ some help. There is also no available FAs that have the ability to compete at his level. Huff is a big contract also but we can't get rid of all of them at once. Getting rid of Seymour, Kelly, McClain, Bey, and McFadden would fit the mold of what you're implying we should do, correct?

I believe this would be an ideal start by building up both lines w/ solid, young talent then putting the rest of the pieces together in the following couple years. I mean, I believe Bushrod would be the oldest person on both lines and he's only 28.
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ChaRisMa


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have 8 Free Agents. That's not a lot of draft and develop. Those roles may seem insignificant but you are trying to be the best you can in three years--not this year. The season goal needs to be finding young guys--players still in their rookie deals--that can play.

You cut a ton of guys, which is good. But you brought more in. Let the young guys develop. Then have the cap space to sign them to a contract for their prime. The draft is great. That would be another year of progress.

I don't know at what point addressing the elephant in the room that is the quarterback position is a good idea--but that probably means ASAP.
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