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AlanFanecaFan


Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 10936
Location: Getting hammered with Jeff Reed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Steelers draft Ogletree, they better get another NT that can take on 2 OL cause neither him or Timmons can/have shown consistent ability to shed and disengage.

If they can, that 2 damn athletic ILBs that can run and cover.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 49036
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurgan wrote:
@23 and fourthree

I totally agree with what you both are saying and there is no way that I am saying that we should straight up move Timmons to OLB. I think that we are just coming from different angles and looking at things in different ways. In the way that football is being played in the modern era, the starting lineup and what gets on the field is sooo different on every level. I know that we love to strategize and plug in players in certain spots, and think that that is where they play most of the time.

As bad as Timmons is at OLB in an everydown scenario, there is no way you all can say that there would not be certain aspects and times that he could come in and play OLB and be a dynamic player. There are certain stunts, twists and packages that LeBeau could come up with that begins with Timmons at OLB. Hell, most of the time on 3rd down we are not even in a 3-4.

I guess, that to me, the idea of "too many athletic linebackers" or "too many BUCK backers" is like saying "Dang, we have too many young cover corners"


Fair enough points.

My main point is, we shouldnt move Timmons from ILB because a) he is definitely better suited for ILB and b) when we move him around, it seems to throw off his play at ILB, and he is a very average OLB, at best.

Id rather keep Timmons where I know he will be great rather than put him somewhere where he is average and then replace him with someone at ILB who isnt nearly as good....even if it means Worlids playing OLB.
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kurgan


Joined: 04 Jan 2013
Posts: 45
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:


Fair enough points.

My main point is, we shouldnt move Timmons from ILB because a) he is definitely better suited for ILB and b) when we move him around, it seems to throw off his play at ILB, and he is a very average OLB, at best.

Id rather keep Timmons where I know he will be great rather than put him somewhere where he is average and then replace him with someone at ILB who isnt nearly as good....even if it means Worlids playing OLB.


Even as fans, how do we know that Timmons can't play the BUCK in certain situations. He has been around enough, and should know the responsibilities and roles that the BUCK would play. You can do a rotation of ILB like Foote/Timmons, Foote/Tree, Timmons/Tree with some Spence, Sylvester or a young plugger like Johnson/Klein sprinkled in. Then start expanding to packages where he can play a little OLB for pass rush and zone blitz packages.

Hell, I would prefer not to move anyone and draft a killer OLB that could walk in and play like Jarvis Jones, or Teo drop and plug him in.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurgan wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:


Fair enough points.

My main point is, we shouldnt move Timmons from ILB because a) he is definitely better suited for ILB and b) when we move him around, it seems to throw off his play at ILB, and he is a very average OLB, at best.

Id rather keep Timmons where I know he will be great rather than put him somewhere where he is average and then replace him with someone at ILB who isnt nearly as good....even if it means Worlids playing OLB.


Even as fans, how do we know that Timmons can't play the BUCK in certain situations. He has been around enough, and should know the responsibilities and roles that the BUCK would play. You can do a rotation of ILB like Foote/Timmons, Foote/Tree, Timmons/Tree with some Spence, Sylvester or a young plugger like Johnson/Klein sprinkled in. Then start expanding to packages where he can play a little OLB for pass rush and zone blitz packages.

Hell, I would prefer not to move anyone and draft a killer OLB that could walk in and play like Jarvis Jones, or Teo drop and plug him in.


You could play Timmons in the buck position, definitely, but not in the classic buck role.

I agree with the gist of what youre saying, though.
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mosteelers


Joined: 24 Apr 2008
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Location: Washington State
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlanFanecaFan wrote:
If the Steelers draft Ogletree, they better get another NT that can take on 2 OL cause neither him or Timmons can/have shown consistent ability to shed and disengage.

If they can, that 2 damn athletic ILBs that can run and cover.


This is what I would like. A good A to A gap NT then draft two athletic ILBs.

I think with the league going to more passing I would like to play our base package and be able to cover guys or blitz those athletic guys up the middle.
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurgan wrote:
Timmons can play anywhere in the LB corps



no. He can't. He can play 1 position in the LB corps, the mack. He is horrible at OLB and has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he cannot play the buck, which is why Tomlin said outright that he won't be playing the buck.

He is far from versatile. He is a 3-4 WILB only. In a 4-3, he's a WLB. Not a knock on him, just reality.

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Trying to use him as a 34 OLB is like trying to use Ziggy Hood like Aaron Smith, which obviously isnt working out well.


y'know, you guys harassed the hell out of me here for rambling on about the "square peg/round hole" Smile
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timmons can play everywhere was he great at it, no! But just like the OL you need players that are able to move. Timmons is the only LB that probably knows all four positions.
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at23steelers


Joined: 05 Mar 2011
Posts: 3721
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurgan wrote:

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Trying to use him as a 34 OLB is like trying to use Ziggy Hood like Aaron Smith, which obviously isnt working out well.


y'know, you guys harassed the hell out of me here for rambling on about the "square peg/round hole" Smile


Kethy it's not a fact of agreeing with your concept, we're just not lame enough to use your "square peg/round hole" illustration! Laughing Wink
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kurgan


Joined: 04 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
kurgan wrote:
Timmons can play anywhere in the LB corps



no. He can't. He can play 1 position in the LB corps, the mack. He is horrible at OLB and has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he cannot play the buck, which is why Tomlin said outright that he won't be playing the buck.

He is far from versatile. He is a 3-4 WILB only. In a 4-3, he's a WLB. Not a knock on him, just reality.


I guess we are just saying that if a guy plays one position then that the only position that he plays. So, when we say that a guy is a BUCK, that is all he can play. We just look at a guy and say, "there is a ___" and that is all he plays. So that means Pouncey is only a center, Antonio Brown is only an X reciever, and Curtis Brown is only a nickleback. It is impossible for someone to be flexible and lineup somewhere else to play for a snap or two.
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MightyJoeYoung


Joined: 03 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurgan wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
kurgan wrote:
Timmons can play anywhere in the LB corps



no. He can't. He can play 1 position in the LB corps, the mack. He is horrible at OLB and has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he cannot play the buck, which is why Tomlin said outright that he won't be playing the buck.

He is far from versatile. He is a 3-4 WILB only. In a 4-3, he's a WLB. Not a knock on him, just reality.


I guess we are just saying that if a guy plays one position then that the only position that he plays. So, when we say that a guy is a BUCK, that is all he can play. We just look at a guy and say, "there is a ___" and that is all he plays. So that means Pouncey is only a center, Antonio Brown is only an X reciever, and Curtis Brown is only a nickleback. It is impossible for someone to be flexible and lineup somewhere else to play for a snap or two.

No, you're generalising what everyone is saying.

Timmons can play OLB, he is invisible there, he can play BUCK, he is MUCH less effective there.
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurgan wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
kurgan wrote:
Timmons can play anywhere in the LB corps



no. He can't. He can play 1 position in the LB corps, the mack. He is horrible at OLB and has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he cannot play the buck, which is why Tomlin said outright that he won't be playing the buck.

He is far from versatile. He is a 3-4 WILB only. In a 4-3, he's a WLB. Not a knock on him, just reality.


I guess we are just saying that if a guy plays one position then that the only position that he plays. So, when we say that a guy is a BUCK, that is all he can play. We just look at a guy and say, "there is a ___" and that is all he plays. So that means Pouncey is only a center, Antonio Brown is only an X reciever, and Curtis Brown is only a nickleback. It is impossible for someone to be flexible and lineup somewhere else to play for a snap or two.


save the condescending sarcasm for someone else, ok? Open up your frickin' eyes and remove your head from your hindquarters.

Timmons played OLB in a 3-4 in 2011. Timmons SUCKED. He's not a 3-4 OLB.
Tomlin said Timmons will NOT play the buck.

I don't know how much easier I can make it for you. TIMMONS doesn't have positional versatility. Doesn't mean other players don't. Just that HE doesn't.
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kurgan


Joined: 04 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:

Timmons played OLB in a 3-4 in 2011. Timmons SUCKED. He's not a 3-4 OLB.
Tomlin said Timmons will NOT play the buck.

I don't know how much easier I can make it for you. TIMMONS doesn't have positional versatility. Doesn't mean other players don't. Just that HE doesn't.


OK, I didnt mean to start a big battle here with you and MightyJoeYoung here on my first day, but I just get frustrated when what we are saying is essentially the same, yet when I make a statement, the fallback position is that I would like to move Timmons to OLB. I am sorry if I came off that way...

That was never my position to begin with. I never stated that it was a smart move or a good idea to put Timmons at OLB. My simple idea was that, absent a stud ILB or difference maker at OLB, packages and personnel can be shifted and made to get the best 11 on the field at any time. The original post was about draft Nico Johnson and that would allow some flexibility down the road in the LB corps.

Kethnaab, I agree with you. If we line up in base defense even 30% of the time and Timmons is at OLB, we are in trouble. I never advocated this move. Where I DO NOT agree with you is that there is no situation where Timmons can play OLB.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurgan wrote:
kethnaab wrote:

Timmons played OLB in a 3-4 in 2011. Timmons SUCKED. He's not a 3-4 OLB.
Tomlin said Timmons will NOT play the buck.

I don't know how much easier I can make it for you. TIMMONS doesn't have positional versatility. Doesn't mean other players don't. Just that HE doesn't.


OK, I didnt mean to start a big battle here with you and MightyJoeYoung here on my first day, but I just get frustrated when what we are saying is essentially the same, yet when I make a statement, the fallback position is that I would like to move Timmons to OLB. I am sorry if I came off that way...

That was never my position to begin with. I never stated that it was a smart move or a good idea to put Timmons at OLB. My simple idea was that, absent a stud ILB or difference maker at OLB, packages and personnel can be shifted and made to get the best 11 on the field at any time. The original post was about draft Nico Johnson and that would allow some flexibility down the road in the LB corps.

Kethnaab, I agree with you. If we line up in base defense even 30% of the time and Timmons is at OLB, we are in trouble. I never advocated this move. Where I DO NOT agree with you is that there is no situation where Timmons can play OLB.


ok man, no worries. just getting to know each other's style and such

If Timmons is at OLB, he'd better be in a 4-3. he cannot rush the QB from the OLB position, at all. I'd rather we put some schlep off the streets at OLB than put Timmons there.

I think that we will be fine with a smart guy inside with Tmimons, as long as he can call the defense. If it's Spence, then we'd better get a Jesse Williams type or send Ta'amu to the same physical trainer that Ziggy goes to, and hire Aaron Smith to teach Ta'amu how to use his hands and keep his leverage.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
y'know, you guys harassed the hell out of me here for rambling on about the "square peg/round hole" Smile


Huh?

I always agreed with that for the most part.

The only thing Ive ever "harrassed" you about was the hindsight stuff (shouldve drafted so and so) and when you said something like Aaron Smith really didnt do much (not sure if that was the exact argument, but it was along those lines)
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Gatoradus


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't want Nice Johnson. a nice prospect, who can take up blocks but... He always come off the field for Bama during the passing downs and that's a concern for me. I want players who can play all 4 downs and through no huddle. Gimme Miracle kind of draft (right prospects, right system) over BPA and potentials.

That's pretty much what kind of draft we need right now.

So for my mock... a really quick mock!

*this isn't my most favorite mock but... I'm looking toward "right prospects, right system, and especially; whose I feel like CAN contribute right away" rather than BPA or players with very high ceilings.

1). Jesse Williams, 3-4 D-lineman, Alabama. 6'4" 320 lbs.
Became more warmer with this idea, a player who is big and strong enough to play 3-4 NT... also can play through all downs? any of positions we ask of him? Gimme him. I know under Lebeau no rookie ever play enough snaps but... With our salary cap Lebeau may have no choice. Considering there are prospects with better potentials and offer more in other positions but we truly are weaken in the area where we can be exposed easily in rushing and passing downs. This is a slingshot kind of pick; almost never will find a perfect 3-4 lineman within our pick due to always being in playoff (usually...) so either we draft other players and doesn't exceed their expectations or within our system OR get a player that you know what exactly you are getting out from. During passing downs we can play Jesse Williams on outside with Ziggy inside or something, just become more schematic versatile with this kind of prospect.

2). DJ Swearinger, S, South Carolina. 5'11" 210 lbs.
is any explanation really needed?

3). Jawan Jamison, RB, Rutgers. 5'8" 200 lbs.
My favorite running back of the draft beside Eddie Lacy. Lacy is going into 1st round now, easily. I have came to believe that Jamison is a running back with hidden gem even if he is a 3nd round prospect. Exceptionally young, very fast, a grinder, and fits our running game. Could grow more a bit, plays really low, catch very well, and schematic versatile. Could replace both Mendenhall and Rainey (returning game) so in 3rd round we find a RB who can be a full-time starter. This kid really excites me everytime I watch him play. It's not coincidence that Rutgers were sneaking into top 25 with this kid being healthy until his ankle got injuried and Rutgers sudden is out of top 25.

4). Aaron Mellette, WR, Elon. 6'3" 218 lbs.
A Wide Receiver with nice size, very underrated. Would be a good comparison if I compared him to Brian Quick where Quick probably went off the board tady early last year. Mellette displayed not only good catching and deep-threat abilities, but he's shown good route-running and some underrated blocking ability. Horrible QB play have played in a role for his underproduction (he just had broken a SoCo record, a conference not a name of alcohol BTW) so in that consideration getting him would be a steal. Mellette also displayed great ability to play closer to QB (dink n dunk) and catch, then break tackles and run for longer gain. Mike Wallace is very likely to be gone... Where there is a good depth on our roster, we are missing one more piece to complete the Haley's offense.

5). Michael Williams, TE, Alabama. 6'6" 270 lbs.
Not many people know about this guy; he's a true blocking TE who can catch balls. Kind of like... Mark Bruener, mind you. I have been fiddled with the concept of pass-catching TE vs blocking TE vs overall TE. To be honest, I'd rather have a true blocking TE playing behind Heath Miller and I just hope Heath come back sooner. Paulson did okay considering he was a 7th round prospect but he was no blocker. It'd be nice having a run-blocking TE who can pancake regularly. This kid is more athletic than he seem to be (runs 4.77) and to have a better running game, you ought to take a run-blocking TE and hope he can become the pass-catcher you would he like to be than asking a pass-catching TE to block...

6). Quanterus Smith, 3-4 OLB, Western Kentucky. 6'5" 250 lbs.
Other Western Kentucky product, however this kid has plenty of good moves. Not quite the athletic pass-rusher you would like to have but he fits... Brook Reed kind of role. Just let him explode through any lane and he will find his way to QB. Use his arms very well, high motor, and has good feel for the game. He's rated this late because of injury he just sustained. Far from project, but he's going to be a career pass-rusher at best.

7). James Hurst, OT, North Carolina. 6'7" 310 lbs.
I know we can find depth at OL from the free agency and that's not what I was going for; we need a good tackle back-up who can play BOTH tackles. rumors to be that Marcus Gilbert will be our future LT or Max Starks in that case... Regardless, you want to be comfortable with the depth. Hurst is a beast in running game but plays somewhat awkward in passing blocking (a lot like Max Starks pre-willie colon) and when you can find somebody who could play both tackles at THIS late, you take him.

None of the players above have attitude nor off-field troubles. At best, they all become major contributors but nothing more. Targeting right players for our systems are hard but it's doable.


Last edited by Gatoradus on Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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