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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
We didn't move up for Thomas and got stuck with Levi. Not saying Levi = Lewan but Joeckel is the superior Tackle in this draft. Go get the elite guy.


And how many playoff wins has that got the Browns?
And how many playoff wins have we missed out on?


That's a completely irrelevant argument. With Joe Thomas we are a better football and w/o Thomas the Browns win 2 games a year. Go get the best player.


Bolded: No it isn't. It's a very sound argument, as it shows directly that a left tackle doesn't change the course of our franchise nor has it changed the course of Cleveland's. So Cleveland only wins 2 games with Thomas (Which can't be backed up, you just threw out a random number), so what? 2 wins, 5 wins, it's all the same at the end of the day.

I'm not saying you don't have a point Dez but calling Khodder's argument irrelevant is incorrect. It's a very valid counter argument.


There's too many other factors just so say "Joe Thomas didn't elevate them to the playoffs". He's had no offensive weapons around him for most of his career, so yeah, that's not really an argument to show LT isn't valuable. If we had a borderline elite Tackle for the last 5 years we would've accomplished more.


Bolded: This comment just made it even MORE of an argument. Saying a LT's impact on his team is determined by the people around him absolutely, positively shows that his value to his team as an individual is only worth so much.


Except we've had weapons on offense that can't be utilized because we're not solid up front so... Do you not think things would be different had we traded up that year?
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
We didn't move up for Thomas and got stuck with Levi. Not saying Levi = Lewan but Joeckel is the superior Tackle in this draft. Go get the elite guy.


And how many playoff wins has that got the Browns?
And how many playoff wins have we missed out on?


That's a completely irrelevant argument. With Joe Thomas we are a better football and w/o Thomas the Browns win 2 games a year. Go get the best player.


Bolded: No it isn't. It's a very sound argument, as it shows directly that a left tackle doesn't change the course of our franchise nor has it changed the course of Cleveland's. So Cleveland only wins 2 games with Thomas (Which can't be backed up, you just threw out a random number), so what? 2 wins, 5 wins, it's all the same at the end of the day.

I'm not saying you don't have a point Dez but calling Khodder's argument irrelevant is incorrect. It's a very valid counter argument.


There's too many other factors just so say "Joe Thomas didn't elevate them to the playoffs". He's had no offensive weapons around him for most of his career, so yeah, that's not really an argument to show LT isn't valuable. If we had a borderline elite Tackle for the last 5 years we would've accomplished more.


Bolded: This comment just made it even MORE of an argument. Saying a LT's impact on his team is determined by the people around him absolutely, positively shows that his value to his team as an individual is only worth so much.


Except we've had weapons on offense that can't be utilized because we're not solid up front so... Do you not think things would be different had we traded up that year?


Joer Thomas doesn't solidify us up front, however. Would he make us better, you're damn right but how much? We'd still have negative grade players at center, right guard and right tackle. We'd still be very weak up the middle and off the right side, something any good defensive coordinator would recognize and scheme around. That's what defenses have done to Cleveland for the last 6 years.

I don't think things would have been different, no. No QB. Joe Thomas isn't making Derek Anderson, Max Hall, John Skelton or Ryan Lindley better and none of the shots that caused Kevin Kolb to get injured the last 2 years were a result of left tackle play. It might have helped us in 2010 with Warner but once he called her quits we were sunk, regardless of whether we had Thomas or Levi.

Joe Thomas is a phenomenal player. Would I kill to have him? Yes I would. Do I think having him significantly changes the last 6 years? No I don't. Offensive line play is judged by how well all 5 players play as a cohesive unit. 1 player can't transform a line the way 1 WR or 1 CB can transform a receiving unit/secondary.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
Joe Thomas doesn't solidify us up front, however. Would he make us better, you're damn right but how much? We'd still have negative grade players at center, right guard and right tackle. We'd still be very weak up the middle and off the right side, something any good defensive coordinator would recognize and scheme around. That's what defenses have done to Cleveland for the last 6 years.

I don't think things would have been different, no. No QB. Joe Thomas isn't making Derek Anderson, Max Hall, John Skelton or Ryan Lindley better and none of the shots that caused Kevin Kolb to get injured the last 2 years were a result of left tackle play. It might have helped us in 2010 with Warner but once he called her quits we were sunk, regardless of whether we had Thomas or Levi.

Joe Thomas is a phenomenal player. Would I kill to have him? Yes I would. Do I think having him significantly changes the last 6 years? No I don't. Offensive line play is judged by how well all 5 players play as a cohesive unit. 1 player can't transform a line the way 1 WR or 1 CB can transform a receiving unit/secondary.


This is true but regarding THIS year there's 1-2 great prospects and one happens to be Luke Joeckel. If it was a QB I'd say trade up as well. Were picking top 7, might as well grab that borderline elite prospect.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
Joe Thomas doesn't solidify us up front, however. Would he make us better, you're damn right but how much? We'd still have negative grade players at center, right guard and right tackle. We'd still be very weak up the middle and off the right side, something any good defensive coordinator would recognize and scheme around. That's what defenses have done to Cleveland for the last 6 years.

I don't think things would have been different, no. No QB. Joe Thomas isn't making Derek Anderson, Max Hall, John Skelton or Ryan Lindley better and none of the shots that caused Kevin Kolb to get injured the last 2 years were a result of left tackle play. It might have helped us in 2010 with Warner but once he called her quits we were sunk, regardless of whether we had Thomas or Levi.

Joe Thomas is a phenomenal player. Would I kill to have him? Yes I would. Do I think having him significantly changes the last 6 years? No I don't. Offensive line play is judged by how well all 5 players play as a cohesive unit. 1 player can't transform a line the way 1 WR or 1 CB can transform a receiving unit/secondary.


This is true but regarding THIS year there's 1-2 great prospects and one happens to be Luke Joeckel. If it was a QB I'd say trade up as well. Were picking top 7, might as well grab that borderline elite prospect.


That, as I said before, is a valid suggestion. I never said I was completely against that, though it wouldn't be my first choice. I would prefer to take the best OT/OG/OLB at 7 and then swing a pick or two to get up in the 2nd round and secure the QB we like most in that area.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What carries more value. Elite LT at #4 or Top notch LT at #7 with depth/starters in the third and fourth round.

In the ultimate team game the best franchises in the NFL are those that stockpile picks and build a team and don't try to run a team through a few superstars. We have seen of late where having no draft picks has left the Oakland Raiders and on the flip-side a team like New England who has consistently stockpiled draft picks have a reasonably well rounded team which was illustrated not long ago when they, led by Matt Cassell, went 10-6.
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iRobot


Joined: 17 Nov 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
What carries more value. Elite LT at #4 or Top notch LT at #7 with depth/starters in the third and fourth round.

In the ultimate team game the best franchises in the NFL are those that stockpile picks and build a team and don't try to run a team through a few superstars. We have seen of late where having no draft picks has left the Oakland Raiders and on the flip-side a team like New England who has consistently stockpiled draft picks have a reasonably well rounded team which was illustrated not long ago when they, led by Matt Cassell, went 10-6.


No disrespect Khodder, but I dislike when people use New England as an example. When your team allows to to be a perennial Super Bowl contender, and you have the ability to trade away your first round pick in various years or other picks to stockpile more picks.. it's pretty easy to do what they've done.

Not all teams have the luxury to do that.. as much sense as it makes TO do it.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iRobot wrote:
khodder wrote:
What carries more value. Elite LT at #4 or Top notch LT at #7 with depth/starters in the third and fourth round.

In the ultimate team game the best franchises in the NFL are those that stockpile picks and build a team and don't try to run a team through a few superstars. We have seen of late where having no draft picks has left the Oakland Raiders and on the flip-side a team like New England who has consistently stockpiled draft picks have a reasonably well rounded team which was illustrated not long ago when they, led by Matt Cassell, went 10-6.


No disrespect Khodder, but I dislike when people use New England as an example. When your team allows to to be a perennial Super Bowl contender, and you have the ability to trade away your first round pick in various years or other picks to stockpile more picks.. it's pretty easy to do what they've done.

Not all teams have the luxury to do that.. as much sense as it makes TO do it.


I am not talking about their first round picks I am talking about trading 2nd round picks for future firsts, I am talking trading 4th round picks for a pair of fourth round picks in the following draft.

It is not difficult, especially if you think a draft lacks depth to move out of this years draft and into the next years.

Bottom Line - Football is a team game, one superstar (not at the QB position) has a minimal affect on winning football games. The teams with the two best WR's in football are at home right now and drafting in the top 10 of the draft. Some of the best LT's in the League (Thomas, Roos, Ferguson) are on losing football teams.

It is far easier said than done, but you have to build a team around a Quarterback. You need to find a top quality QB and then put a lot of good talent around him, even if the team lacks the "superstar" quality player.

In terms of wins generated for their Football Team the difference between Joe Thomas and Joe Staley is nada, zip, zilch zero. One is considered the elite player at his position, the other is regarded as a top 10-12 player at his position.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
What carries more value. Elite LT at #4 or Top notch LT at #7 with depth/starters in the third and fourth round.

In the ultimate team game the best franchises in the NFL are those that stockpile picks and build a team and don't try to run a team through a few superstars. We have seen of late where having no draft picks has left the Oakland Raiders and on the flip-side a team like New England who has consistently stockpiled draft picks have a reasonably well rounded team which was illustrated not long ago when they, led by Matt Cassell, went 10-6.


Give me the elite player over two mid-round guys who MIGHT be solid starters or depth guys.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
What carries more value. Elite LT at #4 or Top notch LT at #7 with depth/starters in the third and fourth round.

In the ultimate team game the best franchises in the NFL are those that stockpile picks and build a team and don't try to run a team through a few superstars. We have seen of late where having no draft picks has left the Oakland Raiders and on the flip-side a team like New England who has consistently stockpiled draft picks have a reasonably well rounded team which was illustrated not long ago when they, led by Matt Cassell, went 10-6.


Give me the elite player over two mid-round guys who MIGHT be solid starters or depth guys.


I will take the elite player and the two guys for depth.
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AZPSquared


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
What carries more value. Elite LT at #4 or Top notch LT at #7 with depth/starters in the third and fourth round.

In the ultimate team game the best franchises in the NFL are those that stockpile picks and build a team and don't try to run a team through a few superstars. We have seen of late where having no draft picks has left the Oakland Raiders and on the flip-side a team like New England who has consistently stockpiled draft picks have a reasonably well rounded team which was illustrated not long ago when they, led by Matt Cassell, went 10-6.


Give me the elite player over two mid-round guys who MIGHT be solid starters or depth guys.


I will take the elite player and the two guys for depth.


Who knows? Maybe Joeckel will fall to us at 7. Maybe Jake Matthews declares.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
What carries more value. Elite LT at #4 or Top notch LT at #7 with depth/starters in the third and fourth round.

In the ultimate team game the best franchises in the NFL are those that stockpile picks and build a team and don't try to run a team through a few superstars. We have seen of late where having no draft picks has left the Oakland Raiders and on the flip-side a team like New England who has consistently stockpiled draft picks have a reasonably well rounded team which was illustrated not long ago when they, led by Matt Cassell, went 10-6.


Give me the elite player over two mid-round guys who MIGHT be solid starters or depth guys.


I will take the elite player and the two guys for depth.


My opinion could change if Lewan impresses during pre-draft activities. Will our Big-10 favoritism continue if Keim is GM?

AZP - No way he drops to #7...
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AZPSquared


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe if this happens:

KC: Geno Smith
JAC: Star Lotulelei
OAK: Bjoern Werner
PHI: Dee Milliner
DET: Manti Te'o
CLE: Demontre Moore
ARI: Luke Joeckel

It's a long shot, but it's not certain the eagles take Joeckel (they have Peters coming back). I don't think the Lions would take another OT in the 1st because theyre not even starting Reiff.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't watch this game tonight and think Warmack is a reach at 7. It's impossible. The kid's on another planet, I've never seen a college guard play as well as he is tonight and against a darn good ND front to boot.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
I can't watch this game tonight and think Warmack is a reach at 7. It's impossible. The kid's on another planet, I've never seen a college guard play as well as he is tonight and against a darn good ND front to boot.


Potter-Warmack > Lewan-Colledge

(imo)
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Boise&cards Fan


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love if Arizona picked Warmack
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