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Vontae Deal better for Colts than expected
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fishfan4life wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
If I had the patience I would go back and pull up the thread from about one year ago in this very forum that had over half of our posters claiming that Vontae Davis was the single best defensive player on the Dolphins roster and the future of our franchise. Now, its considered a decent deal that we got a low second rounder for him?

Beyond that, its pretty clear we took a first round selection from just 4 years ago and got a low second rounder for him in exchange. Corners should be peaking at around 4 years into their NFL careers. How anyone can consider that a win for the Dolphins is beyond me.
I do not consider it a succesful draft pick but do not think the trade was bad if that makes any sense. Now that I think of it im not sure it makes sense but I feel like we manged to salvage a very respectable pick out of a bad pick tht wasnt going to really ever be a pro bowl player and would be entering free agency soon. He showed up hungover last year and for a brand new coach he showed up out of shape


I tend to agree, but the long and short of it is that Vontae Davis is not a player that could be/should be considered a success when evaluating Jeff Ireland. Its not me being hard on Ireland, although I would have no problem with that, its simply that he didn't work out and Ireland held out for a 2nd and 6th, believing that the Colts would be one of the worse teams in the NFL. It turns out they made the playoffs, Vontae was injured and we lost the 6th rounder and the 2nd rounder became nearly a third rounder. Not a good move.
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dolphan9954


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love me some Vontae Davis. Him and Marshall are my two favorite Fins from the last few years. I can realistically look at both deals though and totally understand it. It sucks that they both got dealt because I just liked watching them, but at the same time for a young TEAM you need TEAM players. Don't come to camp out of shape, Vontae. That is why he got traded. Don't get stupid penalties and drop touchdowns, Brandon. That is why he got traded.
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cddolphin


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pre-season opinion:
Vontae trade was okay, we had two average - good starting corners but depth was a big issue.

Post-season opinion:
Vontae trade was good. Sean Smith showed solid progression from last year to this and Vontae continued to fluctuate wildly, when he was on the field. Yes, depth turned out to be an issue but Smith did well against some big names this year. This team has a #1 CB, and we can draft our new #2 CB.

The CB class in this draft looks DEEP, starters could be easily had in rounds 2 - 3.
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ViolentMonk71


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This deal was made worse by the surprise performance of the Colts. In the end Davis has never played up to his draft status and while he flashed potential he never had any consistency. The biggest issue I had was his work ethic (or lack there of), and even joked about pretending to be good and trying to act not tired. This move was done from the stand point of getting rid of a very underachieving player for at least something before he was gone for nothing.

I also don't look at this article as saying the Colts received a great deal, but it being a better value based on the 6th round pick and the later second pick based on how well they achieved. No one expected the Colts to make the playoffs at the beginning of the year and perform as well as they did. If the Colts performed how most expected we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Even for the Colts he wasn't a difference maker except of the last game....for most of the season he was injured or played poorly. I still haven't seen anything that shows he has improved his work ethic and most likely won't know that until next season.

Moves like this are hard to evaluate in one season....we still don't know who the Dolphins will draft with the pick, if Vontae will actually turn his career around and play to his potential, or if he will even resign with them at the end of next season. There are too many variables that have yet to be determine.
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Clutch


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
If I had the patience I would go back and pull up the thread from about one year ago in this very forum that had over half of our posters claiming that Vontae Davis was the single best defensive player on the Dolphins roster and the future of our franchise. Now, its considered a decent deal that we got a low second rounder for him?

Beyond that, its pretty clear we took a first round selection from just 4 years ago and got a low second rounder for him in exchange. Corners should be peaking at around 4 years into their NFL careers. How anyone can consider that a win for the Dolphins is beyond me.


Hey Merc, what I liked was that Ireland realized there was a mistake made on the drafting of VD and corrected it before it was too late. Getting a 2nd for a 1st round draft choice whom has injury and mental make up issues is a good deal for us. You can't build a team around players who are constantly missing games every season.

I can apply that logic to Jake Long and Greg Jennings as well. As Sug said, we could have traded Jake at the start of the season and landed some quality talent/picks. Jennings is a great guy to have as a mentor for future WR's and a solid contributor when healthy.
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Miami2DaMax


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ViolentMonk71 wrote:
The move was made by Ireland, therefore it is a horrible one, regardless of any other information.


Give me solid proof, thanks.
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D-Z-O


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO, VD showed some laziness and the STAFF didn't want this to spread to the other CB's. We all want our Fins to win big, but they are rebuilding right now. Rebuilding the character of the team is included! with that being said, I don't know why Incognito is still around, but I enjoy watching him be dirty.
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ovaw8lover


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
If I had the patience I would go back and pull up the thread from about one year ago in this very forum that had over half of our posters claiming that Vontae Davis was the single best defensive player on the Dolphins roster and the future of our franchise. Now, its considered a decent deal that we got a low second rounder for him?

Beyond that, its pretty clear we took a first round selection from just 4 years ago and got a low second rounder for him in exchange. Corners should be peaking at around 4 years into their NFL careers. How anyone can consider that a win for the Dolphins is beyond me.


Thank you. This is my point.
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Judson49


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just out of interest, how much of a role do people think Hard Knocks played in fans assessing Vontae's attitude?

I mean, I may be wrong (I usually am) but aside from the turning up to practice drunk (which is obviously dumb beyond belief) I can't recall anything else during his Dolphin's career that marked him out as a fool.

Maybe that time he injured himself doing a super-stretch celebration, but that was funny rather than damaging to the franchise.
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ViolentMonk71


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judson49 wrote:
Just out of interest, how much of a role do people think Hard Knocks played in fans assessing Vontae's attitude?

I mean, I may be wrong (I usually am) but aside from the turning up to practice drunk (which is obviously dumb beyond belief) I can't recall anything else during his Dolphin's career that marked him out as a fool.

Maybe that time he injured himself doing a super-stretch celebration, but that was funny rather than damaging to the franchise.


I think it said a lot about his attitude especially since many already believed he underachieved and was inconsistent....in a way it confirmed what many already thought.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judson49 wrote:
Just out of interest, how much of a role do people think Hard Knocks played in fans assessing Vontae's attitude?

I mean, I may be wrong (I usually am) but aside from the turning up to practice drunk (which is obviously dumb beyond belief) I can't recall anything else during his Dolphin's career that marked him out as a fool.

Maybe that time he injured himself doing a super-stretch celebration, but that was funny rather than damaging to the franchise.


The regime during the Sparano era was all about closing down info to the public and funneling everything through Sparano and the front office to the public. As a result, we knew nothing that they didn't want us to know, or at least for the most part. Ross decided after Sparano left that he wanted to open the doors to the media and that was best characterized by hard knocks. I suspect there could have been other issues with Vontae, but we wouldn't have heard of them during Sparano's time. While I don't like much about Sparano, I do think closing the media out is not a bad idea.
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Tetsuya_Ryuji


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ViolentMonk71 wrote:
Judson49 wrote:
Just out of interest, how much of a role do people think Hard Knocks played in fans assessing Vontae's attitude?

I mean, I may be wrong (I usually am) but aside from the turning up to practice drunk (which is obviously dumb beyond belief) I can't recall anything else during his Dolphin's career that marked him out as a fool.

Maybe that time he injured himself doing a super-stretch celebration, but that was funny rather than damaging to the franchise.


I think it said a lot about his attitude especially since many already believed he underachieved and was inconsistent....in a way it confirmed what many already thought.


Where were these fans a year or two ago?! Just playing, but really.. other than showing up to camp out of shape year after year? I never got the impression from Vontae that he actually cared. I don't think he ever put effort into getting better, he has a ton of talent but just didn't put it to good use IMO.
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HOW about this ?

1. Everybody graded to be selected in the 2nd round of this years draft is more valuable than Vontae Davis (and we get a 6th as well ... i'd do this for any CB we have)

2. If he found a way to gain credibility with the coaching staff, I would still trade him for Sean Smith in a heartbeat.

3. It is how he presented himself to the coaching staff in preseason that sparked that trade. Prior to that he was our best corner. That is not saying much, but it was true. Re-Sign sean smith if you want but he is who he is. He is always a candidate to get faked out of his shoes and he can't cover routes where the receiver breaks to the middle of the field.
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Last edited by dolphinologist on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Miami2DaMax


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather have Davis than Smith, sure he was injured but doesn't mean he would have on Miami. Nothing would ever change my mind, hell commentators worship the guy at times too. Pretty sure it was Gruden talking about him being the future and an amazing athlete and great tackler, etc.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
HOW about this ?

1. Everybody graded to be selected in the 2nd round of this years draft is more valuable than Vontae Davis (and we get a 6th as well ... i'd do this for any CB we have).


Sorry, no chance. Yes, Davis has holes in his game, but lets not forget he got Defensive Player of Week honors the last week of the season when he was healthy. I can't believe we've come so far that I am arguing for Vontae but there is not a chance in hell that everyone, let alone half of the players in the 2nd round are more valuable than Vontae Davis. No chance. If 33% of the guys taken in the 2nd prove to be more productive, longer careers than Vontae it will be one of the best 2nd rounds in draft in history. Vontae is a head case, but he is a talented guy. If he decides to show up, he can even be great. 2nd rounds in the NFL draft have a success rate below 33%. The better teams hit on rates higher than that, but then again, that's what makes them better teams.
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