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CriminalMind


Joined: 25 Aug 2011
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Location: Toronto, CA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
Nevertheless, I think this situation could have been possibly avoided if more discussion and progress was made towards extending guys like Jared Allen and Phil Loadholt during the regular season. I guess I dont understand the thought process there, knowing that there deals are ending soon and having more of an outlook to the cap situation beyond 2012. It was easy to see Allen's deal being an issue, a 1 year; $17M contract after 2012 just doesnt seem justifiable for the cap and for Allen's importance going forward. He needs an extension and im sure he'd like to stick around on a longer term contract.


There is a lot of missing information:
Who is to say they did not approach Jared Allen? What if Jared Allen did not was to sign another extending after an average year.
What if Phil Loadholt/agent wanted to test Free Agency, to bring up his price tag, which it likely correctly did in his favour.

There is only so much planning they can attempt, and then its up to agents/players to work with them.

One of the things they could control was regretably cutting Winfield or K-Williams, when push comes to shove. I think Winfield was actually more valuable then K-Williams to this team, but maybe they thought they have a better chance to sign back Winfield after cutting, then K-Williams.
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Kellerman


Joined: 16 May 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CriminalMind wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
Nevertheless, I think this situation could have been possibly avoided if more discussion and progress was made towards extending guys like Jared Allen and Phil Loadholt during the regular season. I guess I dont understand the thought process there, knowing that there deals are ending soon and having more of an outlook to the cap situation beyond 2012. It was easy to see Allen's deal being an issue, a 1 year; $17M contract after 2012 just doesnt seem justifiable for the cap and for Allen's importance going forward. He needs an extension and im sure he'd like to stick around on a longer term contract.


There is a lot of missing information:
Who is to say they did not approach Jared Allen? What if Jared Allen did not was to sign another extending after an average year.
What if Phil Loadholt/agent wanted to test Free Agency, to bring up his price tag, which it likely correctly did in his favour.

There is only so much planning they can attempt, and then its up to agents/players to work with them.

One of the things they could control was regretably cutting Winfield or K-Williams, when push comes to shove. I think Winfield was actually more valuable then K-Williams to this team, but maybe they thought they have a better chance to sign back Winfield after cutting, then K-Williams.


I disagree. Kevin Williams plays a position that has much more intrinsical value. He's still our best starting tackle, in a scheme that relies heavily on it's D-line to generate pressure and stop the run.

Winfield is a great player, but he is no longer capable of tracking wide-recievers deep down the field. He's a limited player at this point, still great at what he does, but he is no longer a starting outside corner, except for maybe a shallow cover 2 zone (which we seem to be using less each year). This limits his value. On the other hand, K-Will is still our #1 DT, in essence it's between cutting that #1 DT or the #3 CB.

If we would have cut K-Will, we would be down to three part-time player (Guion, Ballard, Evans) for two starting positions. None of those guys have had a sustained period of starter-level play at this point.

Then you have to consider the age-aspect as well. Winfield is a freak at his age, but how much longer will that realistically last? There is no way you can count on Winfield beyond this season. K-Will has been declining as well, but might have a few more years left in him as a veteran, run-stopping, DT, who can provide the occasional spark.

To summarize, I believe that K-Will plays a more valuable position, is higher on the depth chart at his respective position, and has more to offer going forward. I hope we bring Winfield back, but between if I had to choose between K-Will and Winfield, I'd have probably made the same choice.
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CriminalMind


Joined: 25 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kellerman wrote:

I disagree. Kevin Williams plays a position that has much more intrinsical value. He's still our best starting tackle, in a scheme that relies heavily on it's D-line to generate pressure and stop the run.

Winfield is a great player, but he is no longer capable of tracking wide-recievers deep down the field. He's a limited player at this point, still great at what he does, but he is no longer a starting outside corner, except for maybe a shallow cover 2 zone (which we seem to be using less each year). This limits his value. On the other hand, K-Will is still our #1 DT, in essence it's between cutting that #1 DT or the #3 CB.

If we would have cut K-Will, we would be down to three part-time player (Guion, Ballard, Evans) for two starting positions. None of those guys have had a sustained period of starter-level play at this point.

Then you have to consider the age-aspect as well. Winfield is a freak at his age, but how much longer will that realistically last? There is no way you can count on Winfield beyond this season. K-Will has been declining as well, but might have a few more years left in him as a veteran, run-stopping, DT, who can provide the occasional spark.

To summarize, I believe that K-Will plays a more valuable position, is higher on the depth chart at his respective position, and has more to offer going forward. I hope we bring Winfield back, but between if I had to choose between K-Will and Winfield, I'd have probably made the same choice.


I think the DT is a more important position in a 4-3
But I think the player Winfield was/is better then K-Williams.
Winfield played 90% snaps and had a excellent rating.

I could yeild to the argument that K-Williams is needed because everyone else behind him shouldnt be starting. Which is why I'm an advocate for DT in the 1st round, given the value is there.

Guion graded out bottom 5 DT in the league, and as of right now he is still penciled in as the starter.
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Kellerman


Joined: 16 May 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CriminalMind wrote:
Kellerman wrote:

I disagree. Kevin Williams plays a position that has much more intrinsical value. He's still our best starting tackle, in a scheme that relies heavily on it's D-line to generate pressure and stop the run.

Winfield is a great player, but he is no longer capable of tracking wide-recievers deep down the field. He's a limited player at this point, still great at what he does, but he is no longer a starting outside corner, except for maybe a shallow cover 2 zone (which we seem to be using less each year). This limits his value. On the other hand, K-Will is still our #1 DT, in essence it's between cutting that #1 DT or the #3 CB.

If we would have cut K-Will, we would be down to three part-time player (Guion, Ballard, Evans) for two starting positions. None of those guys have had a sustained period of starter-level play at this point.

Then you have to consider the age-aspect as well. Winfield is a freak at his age, but how much longer will that realistically last? There is no way you can count on Winfield beyond this season. K-Will has been declining as well, but might have a few more years left in him as a veteran, run-stopping, DT, who can provide the occasional spark.

To summarize, I believe that K-Will plays a more valuable position, is higher on the depth chart at his respective position, and has more to offer going forward. I hope we bring Winfield back, but between if I had to choose between K-Will and Winfield, I'd have probably made the same choice.


I think the DT is a more important position in a 4-3
But I think the player Winfield was/is better then K-Williams.
Winfield played 90% snaps and had a excellent rating.

I could yeild to the argument that K-Williams is needed because everyone else behind him shouldnt be starting. Which is why I'm an advocate for DT in the 1st round, given the value is there.

Guion graded out bottom 5 DT in the league, and as of right now he is still penciled in as the starter.


It's hard to directly compare to vastly different positions, so I'd rather discuss the relative impact each release would have had on the team. Winfield might have played 90% of the snaps with a great rating, but he wasn't used in a very expansive way.

I looked up some PFF stats, Winfield ranked above Chris Cook in yards/coverage snap. Yet nobody would argue that Winfield is a better corner than Chris Cook at this point. The Vikings are only asking Winfield to do things he does well at this point (shallow zones, run support), while Cook handles the tougher, deeper coverages. Same goes for K-Will, he's still our main 3-down DT at this point. Winfield might be a better nickel corner than K-Will is a defensive tackle, but a nickel corner is far less important than a DT, even if he does play 90% of the snaps. Winning without Kevin Williams is way harder than winning without Winfield. Not to mention the age difference going forward.
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PrplChilPill


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disagree, way easier to replace KWill with a draft pick, and get the same effectiveness, than to replace Winfield.

Also, you need 5 CBs, and right now they have 3, all with MAJOR question marks.

I think KWill is eminently more cuttable than Winfield at this point. Really, a good rookie DT can come in and start pretty easily....not so easy for a CB (especially considernig they have no veteran to help him adjust and learn on the entire roster).

I can't think of any argument anyone could make to convince me otherwise.
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Kellerman


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PrplChilPill wrote:
Disagree, way easier to replace KWill with a draft pick, and get the same effectiveness, than to replace Winfield.

Also, you need 5 CBs, and right now they have 3, all with MAJOR question marks.

I think KWill is eminently more cuttable than Winfield at this point. Really, a good rookie DT can come in and start pretty easily....not so easy for a CB (especially considernig they have no veteran to help him adjust and learn on the entire roster).

I can't think of any argument anyone could make to convince me otherwise.


For starters, you are talking about finding either a starting DT or a nickel CB to replace them. The latter is significantly easier to find. Last year we drafted a rookie CB in the 3rd round who played in every game, had 2 picks and 52 solo tackles. You're not likely to find a 3rd round DT of Williams level in his first year. I don't think any DT after Wolfe (early 2nd) started every game in the season, like K-Williams did).

I'm not saying Winfield isn't a loss, but his position on the field is more easily replaceable than Williams'. Frazier already mentoined he wanted to cut down on his snaps. The organization made the call to cut Winfield over Williams. Are they really that wrong that you can't even see the argument in favor of the cut?
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO, yes, they are that wrong.

They have 1 outside CB on the roster right now that is even average. Robinson was really bad last year. They have no veteran CB on the roster to coach/help the younger players (Cook just has little experience, frankly).

Before cutting winfield they needed a starting CB, now they need 1 or 2 starting CBs (given how much a slot CB plays). At least with Winfield on the roster he could cover the outside if he had to.

Last year's draft was not nearly as deep as this year's, at DT. So I'm not sure why we are even talking about that.

Look, cutting either weakens the team. Would you rather be weaker at DT, or CB? Me, I'd role the die on rookie DTs before I rolled them on rookie (maybe 2) CBs.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, I don't expect everyone to agree with me....and I'm probably done with the conversation because I've beaten it to death.....
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winfield, on the outside, is an average at best corner. As a slot corner, he's among the best in the NFL.

His PFF's ratings are inflated due to his great grade against the run. Against the pass, the further he gets from the line of scrimmage the worse he gets. He's pretty much relegated to slot, zone, duty if you want to maximize his effectiveness.

Williams plays the position of greater importance, but Winfield is likely the better player.
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Kellerman


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PrplChilPill wrote:
BTW, I don't expect everyone to agree with me....and I'm probably done with the conversation because I've beaten it to death.....


That's fine, I've probably said all I had to say as well. Bottom line for me is that I'd rather keep a starting defensive tackle than a slot corner, especially if that slot corner is 36 years old next season.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam Caplan ‏@caplannfl
Vikings announced the signing of G Seth Olsen.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
Adam Caplan ‏@caplannfl
Vikings announced the signing of G Seth Olsen.


He was on the Vikings' P.S. a couple of years ago....so, welcome back!
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Willmar, MN as well!
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
Adam Caplan ‏@caplannfl
Vikings announced the signing of G Seth Olsen.


What's he been doing? Is he a starter candidate? I have no clue.
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Klomp


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PrplChilPill wrote:
rpmwr19 wrote:
Adam Caplan ‏@caplannfl
Vikings announced the signing of G Seth Olsen.


What's he been doing? Is he a starter candidate? I have no clue.


Our five starters won't change. He is likely a Schwartz replacement.
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