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DOCLEW 28
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 10587
Location: East Oakland
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 Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| Bo_Spice wrote: | | DOCLEW 28 wrote: | This will all be a moot point if we trade down anyway.
I would actually rather draft Alabama OC Barrett Jones who could play OG and RT as well. Then we could have him battle in camp with Wiz with the "loser" moving to OG. Of if Wiz wins we could possibly move Jones out to RT with Bergstrom playing the empty OG position.
Bottom line, draft a versatile OL and put your best 5 on the field.
And by the way, Veldheer is just fine where he is.  |
Barrett Jones is a guy I really like towards the end of the first round. He's never going to be a dominant offensive lineman but he has enough versatility to play all five spots on the offensive line. He has the potential to be a really good center or guard, a good right tackle, or a solid left tackle at the next level. |
He is a dominant OC in the SEC. And he has played every position with over 50 starts. What makes you think he will never be dominant? Because he is rught now. I'm just sayin. If he can come in here and solidify one of the OL spots for the next 10 years, the pick is well worth it.
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DOCLEW 28
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 10587
Location: East Oakland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| NCOUGHMAN wrote: | | LivingLegendWFC wrote: | | NCOUGHMAN wrote: | | LivingLegendWFC wrote: | The way I see it is Velheer is fine at LT.We can keep him there and not have to worry about it for a while, I'd be perfectly fine with that. However if the staff feels like Joeckel is the best player on the board and a franchise LT and they want to slide Veldheer over to RT then that's great, it would be basically upgrading two positions at once.
I'm cool either way personally. |
i always wonder why people think he can just slide to rt and be just as effective? |
Because he's a very good run blocker and has good strength, and the one area he can struggle is against athletic sped rushers, he would see a lot less of those types of players playing against LEs. |
i would argue that ive seen him shut down jared allen and other speed rushers before imo he is a better pass blocker than run blocker. run blocking is just the icing on the cake. i would hate to move him when he is just getting his lt craft refined. if it aint broke dont fix it type mentality |
I agree 100%. We have seen him shut down dominant guys. I don't know where this distaste for his game is coming from. Its like one person says it and all of a sudden it becomes gospel and the rest of the sheep start singing the same tune. Veldheer is just fine where he is. We need a solid bookend for him at RT and an upgrade in talent and youth at the OG spots.
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La_Vader
Joined: 04 Jan 2013
Posts: 182
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:24 am Post subject: |
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Kyle Long OT 3rd Round be nice..
You think Jared is going want RT money when he knows he's a LT. When he hits the market some team will offer him a LT spot and money |
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LivingLegendWFC
Joined: 28 Oct 2009
Posts: 10956
Location: BP On The Geno Sig
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| DOCLEW 28 wrote: | | NCOUGHMAN wrote: | | LivingLegendWFC wrote: | | NCOUGHMAN wrote: | | LivingLegendWFC wrote: | The way I see it is Velheer is fine at LT.We can keep him there and not have to worry about it for a while, I'd be perfectly fine with that. However if the staff feels like Joeckel is the best player on the board and a franchise LT and they want to slide Veldheer over to RT then that's great, it would be basically upgrading two positions at once.
I'm cool either way personally. |
i always wonder why people think he can just slide to rt and be just as effective? |
Because he's a very good run blocker and has good strength, and the one area he can struggle is against athletic sped rushers, he would see a lot less of those types of players playing against LEs. |
i would argue that ive seen him shut down jared allen and other speed rushers before imo he is a better pass blocker than run blocker. run blocking is just the icing on the cake. i would hate to move him when he is just getting his lt craft refined. if it aint broke dont fix it type mentality |
I agree 100%. We have seen him shut down dominant guys. I don't know where this distaste for his game is coming from. Its like one person says it and all of a sudden it becomes gospel and the rest of the sheep start singing the same tune. Veldheer is just fine where he is. We need a solid bookend for him at RT and an upgrade in talent and youth at the OG spots. |
And I feel like because most of our team is garbage the few good players we have get overrated and its been that way for some time. We have seen Veldheer dominate some games and we have also seen him have poor outings. I wasn't calling the guy trash, I was simply saying how upset could none really be if we got a franchise LT and kicked Veldheer over to RT and solidified both spots for the next decade. But damn I must just be hating on Veldheer when in reality I'm saying him and a great looking prospect could set us up at OT for a long time and give us a great foundation on offense.
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Favorite Prospects - Tank Carradine, Kwame Geathers, Gerald Hodges, Justin Hunter, Luke Joeckel, Barrett Jones, Jarvis Jones, Corey Lemonier, Bacarri Rambo, Sheldon Richardson, Geno Smith, Larry Warford, |
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Bo_Spice
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 7076
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| DOCLEW 28 wrote: | | He is a dominant OC in the SEC. And he has played every position with over 50 starts. What makes you think he will never be dominant? Because he is rught now. I'm just sayin. If he can come in here and solidify one of the OL spots for the next 10 years, the pick is well worth it. |
I'm just not sure if he has the physical strength to be a dominant blocker in the NFL. I'm not saying he won't be a great NFL player as he is one of my favorite prospects in this years class. I think I worded my post wrong. I was meaning to say Jones will be a very good interior offensive lineman at the NFL level but could also be a good offensive tackle.
If we do keep trading back and end up in the bottom of the first round I'd love to take a look at Jones.
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LivingLegendWFC
Joined: 28 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| Darkness wrote: |
But Veldheer did consistently do a good job against some of the leagues best. Just because he wasn't always perfect, doesn't mean he struggled. It seems like you're expecting Joeckel to be that, which won't happen. Regardless of how great a LT is, there's going to be games where he doesn't play as well as others. Assuming Joeckel will step in and allow as little pressure game in and game out as Veldheer did in our one dimensional, pass happy attack is very premature. |
Veldheer did a good job, but I don't think he played great football this year. I think Joeckel has that potential and if he didn't he wouldn't be looked at as a top five pick. I don't think its crazy to think a top five pick at LT could com in and play great football, maybe not right off the bat but in time.
Its like you guys are taking such offence to say I wouldn't be against adding a franchise LT and moving Veldheer over to RT to lock down both spots long term. I really don't get the problem there, and I even said I would rather address the defense but I couldn't be upset about the idea of solidifying the OT spot on this team long term. People want to talk about teams being built in the trenches, but if you suggest moving someone that is already on the team for a franchise type talent its blasphemy. The bottom line is drafting Joeckel could upgrade our entire offensive unit, just because Veldheer has been good doesn't mean we should rule mouth a chance to upgrade the team just because he would switch sides. That type of thinking leaves you missing out on talent because you have someone who's solid and thus rule out a potential upgrade to your overall team.
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Favorite Prospects - Tank Carradine, Kwame Geathers, Gerald Hodges, Justin Hunter, Luke Joeckel, Barrett Jones, Jarvis Jones, Corey Lemonier, Bacarri Rambo, Sheldon Richardson, Geno Smith, Larry Warford, |
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Bo_Spice
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 7076
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| La_Vader wrote: | Kyle Long OT 3rd Round be nice..
You think Jared is going want RT money when he knows he's a LT. When he hits the market some team will offer him a LT spot and money |
Kyle Long still has a ways to go before he'll be a starter in the NFL. I love his potential though, he's a big kid, he's strong, he's really athletic, and he has enough versatility to slide inside and play either guard spot too.
He's relatively new to playing high level competitive football and is still learning the nuances of playing offensive line but the physical talent is definitely there.
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macklemore
Joined: 27 Apr 2012
Posts: 1425
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| DOCLEW 28 wrote: | | I agree 100%. We have seen him shut down dominant guys. I don't know where this distaste for his game is coming from. Its like one person says it and all of a sudden it becomes gospel and the rest of the sheep start singing the same tune. Veldheer is just fine where he is. We need a solid bookend for him at RT and an upgrade in talent and youth at the OG spots. |
Nobody has a distaste for his game. People are just saying Luke Joeckel is better. If I said Joe Thomas is better than Jared Veldheer would you take that as me [inappropriate/removed] on Veldheer? You're right Veldheer is fine where he is, he would also be fine on the other side of the line. a combination of Joeckel and Veldheer would be A THOUSANDS TIMES BETTER than Veldheer and whatever mid-round/journeyman scrub we find. We could potentially have two elite tackles..
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Bo_Spice
Joined: 17 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:58 am Post subject: |
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I think it's kind of funny that Jared Veldheer fanboys are taking it to the heart that some of us wouldn't mind taking Joeckel. We're not saying that Veldheer isn't a good left tackle but if we could add another franchise tackle and slid Veldheer over wouldn't that make our football team better as a whole?
And I also think it's kind of funny that people are acting like Veldheer is some immature, low character guy that would leave in free agency because we slid him over to right tackle. If we slide him over and he dominates I'm sure McKenzie would reward him with a big contract and make him one of the highest paid right tackles in the league.
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RaisinBran
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
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Location: 925 Bay Area
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| macklemore wrote: | | Totty wrote: | I am starting to warm up to the Luke Joeckel idea. Someon in here said, slide Jared to the RT spot, and you have essentially upgraded two positions.
This could be something...
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That was me.
And not only do you upgrade two positions, you also improve the entire offense.
- QB will have more room and time in the pocket
- WR's will have more time to get open
- RB's will have more room to run
- TE's will be used less to stay in and block |
It also will help out our defense if you think about it. With better OT's, we should be getting more first downs keeping our D rested. A lot of our 3 and outs had to do with poor OL play. And we had a lot of 3 and outs this year.... A LOT.
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Bo_Spice
Joined: 17 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:23 am Post subject: |
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There isn't anything even somewhat negative about having two franchise level offensive tackles. And the plus side in all of this is the fact that Veldheer has already proven he is scheme versatile and Joeckel looks like he can play well in a PBS and ZBS too. While we do have other more glaring needs and I'd like to address our defensive line with our first pick, we could do a lot worse than getting Luke Joeckel at number three, he's the best prospect in this years class.
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DOCLEW 28
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 10587
Location: East Oakland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Bo_Spice wrote: | | DOCLEW 28 wrote: | | He is a dominant OC in the SEC. And he has played every position with over 50 starts. What makes you think he will never be dominant? Because he is rught now. I'm just sayin. If he can come in here and solidify one of the OL spots for the next 10 years, the pick is well worth it. |
I'm just not sure if he has the physical strength to be a dominant blocker in the NFL. I'm not saying he won't be a great NFL player as he is one of my favorite prospects in this years class. I think I worded my post wrong. I was meaning to say Jones will be a very good interior offensive lineman at the NFL level but could also be a good offensive tackle.
If we do keep trading back and end up in the bottom of the first round I'd love to take a look at Jones. |
But that is partly my point, you don't keep that position on the best team in the land if you don't have the total package to fight off all of the recruits they bring in behind you. And at 6-5, 302 he is the perfect size for either blocking scheme. And if you want more size and strength, he has the frame to give it to you.
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DOCLEW 28
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 10587
Location: East Oakland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| LivingLegendWFC wrote: | | DOCLEW 28 wrote: | | NCOUGHMAN wrote: | | LivingLegendWFC wrote: | | NCOUGHMAN wrote: | | LivingLegendWFC wrote: | The way I see it is Velheer is fine at LT.We can keep him there and not have to worry about it for a while, I'd be perfectly fine with that. However if the staff feels like Joeckel is the best player on the board and a franchise LT and they want to slide Veldheer over to RT then that's great, it would be basically upgrading two positions at once.
I'm cool either way personally. |
i always wonder why people think he can just slide to rt and be just as effective? |
Because he's a very good run blocker and has good strength, and the one area he can struggle is against athletic sped rushers, he would see a lot less of those types of players playing against LEs. |
i would argue that ive seen him shut down jared allen and other speed rushers before imo he is a better pass blocker than run blocker. run blocking is just the icing on the cake. i would hate to move him when he is just getting his lt craft refined. if it aint broke dont fix it type mentality |
I agree 100%. We have seen him shut down dominant guys. I don't know where this distaste for his game is coming from. Its like one person says it and all of a sudden it becomes gospel and the rest of the sheep start singing the same tune. Veldheer is just fine where he is. We need a solid bookend for him at RT and an upgrade in talent and youth at the OG spots. |
And I feel like because most of our team is garbage the few good players we have get overrated and its been that way for some time. We have seen Veldheer dominate some games and we have also seen him have poor outings. I wasn't calling the guy trash, I was simply saying how upset could none really be if we got a franchise LT and kicked Veldheer over to RT and solidified both spots for the next decade. But damn I must just be hating on Veldheer when in reality I'm saying him and a great looking prospect could set us up at OT for a long time and give us a great foundation on offense. |
I am saying the same thing. We need a bookend. But the bookend should be taken where there is value. Trade down and get a RT instead of tinkering with Veldheer when there is no need to. How much better would we be if we could get a quality RT, a DT and maybe a CB with the trade downs we can get from that #3 pick???
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DOCLEW 28
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 10587
Location: East Oakland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| macklemore wrote: | | DOCLEW 28 wrote: | | I agree 100%. We have seen him shut down dominant guys. I don't know where this distaste for his game is coming from. Its like one person says it and all of a sudden it becomes gospel and the rest of the sheep start singing the same tune. Veldheer is just fine where he is. We need a solid bookend for him at RT and an upgrade in talent and youth at the OG spots. |
Nobody has a distaste for his game. People are just saying Luke Joeckel is better. If I said Joe Thomas is better than Jared Veldheer would you take that as me [inappropriate/removed] on Veldheer? You're right Veldheer is fine where he is, he would also be fine on the other side of the line. a combination of Joeckel and Veldheer would be A THOUSANDS TIMES BETTER than Veldheer and whatever mid-round/journeyman scrub we find. We could potentially have two elite tackles.. |
Joe Thomas has done it in the NFL. So has Veldheer. Joeckel has not. And realistically, there is no way to know how he will do in the NFL. He could be the next best thing or he could be Robert Gallery. There is a lot of unknown there. I would rather take my chances with his bookend college teammate lower in the draft.
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Rolni
Joined: 08 Jun 2008
Posts: 2165
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:51 am Post subject: |
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The way I see this:
We have lots of holes on our team and we need lots of talent...
With that said the trade down is the best option.
We have to focus on BPA, but on the same time we have to be flexible...what I mean is if you have an OT rated 8,5 and a RDE rated 8,2 you gotta go with the RDE since we already have a good LT in place, while we have nothing at RDE...
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