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Tired of my Boy Jared Veldheer being thrown under the bus
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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Location: East Oakland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This will all be a moot point if we trade down anyway.

I would actually rather draft Alabama OC Barrett Jones who could play OG and RT as well. Then we could have him battle in camp with Wiz with the "loser" moving to OG. Of if Wiz wins we could possibly move Jones out to RT with Bergstrom playing the empty OG position.

Bottom line, draft a versatile OL and put your best 5 on the field.

And by the way, Veldheer is just fine where he is. Rolling Eyes
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Totty


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am starting to warm up to the Luke Joeckel idea. Someon in here said, slide Jared to the RT spot, and you have essentially upgraded two positions.

This could be something...

Idea
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DOCLEW 28


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But we need more picks. Why select a OT when we need more talent and explosion on the DL and in the secondary??? And another young MLB???
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macklemore


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totty wrote:
I am starting to warm up to the Luke Joeckel idea. Someon in here said, slide Jared to the RT spot, and you have essentially upgraded two positions.

This could be something...

Idea


That was me.

And not only do you upgrade two positions, you also improve the entire offense.

- QB will have more room and time in the pocket
- WR's will have more time to get open
- RB's will have more room to run
- TE's will be used less to stay in and block
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LivingLegendWFC


Joined: 28 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bo_Spice wrote:
Darkness wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
macklemore wrote:
Veldheer would be an excellent RT and if we drafted Joeckel we would have a top tackle tandem in the league, making our line a strength. An elite offense line would directly effect our two best players (Palmer and McFadden). we would be much better off in the short term, improving playing conditions for those two players, one defensive prospect isn't going to make the impact that a premier LT could.


Veldheer would be one of the best right tackles in the league. If we slid him over and he played really well I'm sure McKenzie would reward him as one of the highest paid right tackles in the NFL.


This makes no sense to me. He was one of the best LT's this year in only his 3rd season. How much better does he have to play? I think people just don't pay attention to him, so they take off with the wrong opinions others are saying.


I want to address the defensive line with our first pick and find a right tackle later on in the draft. Which is most likely what we'll do but I wouldn't mind taking an elite franchise left tackle and sliding Veldheer over.


Pretty much my line of thinking, I would rather bring in an impact performer on the defensive front and address the OL later, but at the same time it wold be hard to get upset with a franchise LT that would give us bookends for a long time.
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the pick the more I think about it, but I still prefer a trade down more than anything.
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Totty


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macklemore wrote:
Totty wrote:
I am starting to warm up to the Luke Joeckel idea. Someon in here said, slide Jared to the RT spot, and you have essentially upgraded two positions.

This could be something...

Idea


That was me.

And not only do you upgrade two positions, you also improve the entire offense.

- QB will have more room and time in the pocket
- WR's will have more time to get open
- RB's will have more room to run
- TE's will be used less to stay in and block


I am worried about the whole Robert Gallery fiasco... I don't want that all over again.
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LivingLegendWFC


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
LivingLegendWFC wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
LivingLegendWFC wrote:
The way I see it is Velheer is fine at LT.We can keep him there and not have to worry about it for a while, I'd be perfectly fine with that. However if the staff feels like Joeckel is the best player on the board and a franchise LT and they want to slide Veldheer over to RT then that's great, it would be basically upgrading two positions at once.

I'm cool either way personally.


i always wonder why people think he can just slide to rt and be just as effective?


Because he's a very good run blocker and has good strength, and the one area he can struggle is against athletic sped rushers, he would see a lot less of those types of players playing against LEs.


Giving up a few pressures isn't the same as struggling either. All LT's are going to be more susceptible to getting beat against the leagues best pass rushers. Those are the only players that have a chance to begin with against Veldheer. He did a hell of a job making opposing teams rushers non factors.


I think your over rating how well Veldheer played slightly. He was very good for us, but he did have games where he got worked by the man in front of him. Maybe he does only struggle against the leagues best pass rushers but if you peg Joeckel as a franchise LT capable of shutting those guys down consistently and thus allow you to move Veldheer where he won't see as many of those elite pass rushers your setting your offense up with possibly the best foundation possible. Especially if we want to draft a QB of the future nextyear. Giving him two great OTs to keep him upright would do wonders for a young QB your trying to develop. Not to mention upgrading your ability to run the football, which again does magic for a young QB.

I would rather address the defensive side of the football, but what I'm saying is how upset could you really be if we draft an OT that many believe can become an elite OT at the NFL level and allows you to move a very good OT to the other side where his skill set is better suited (not to say he's ad at LT or that he can't continue to play there)? I don't get how its a luxury we can't afford, were numerous positions away from being competitive, we have a lengthy rebuild on our hands, if we decide that the best player available is an OT that will give us three great, young offensive linemen and want to build the foundation of this team on that concept I can't argue with it.

Again I want to go defense with our first pick, I think its what this team needs most at the moment, but in a rebuild especially you don't always draft for your biggest need. You bring in the best football players and build your foundation for success. Even if we get an impact defensive player we are still going to need pieces all over this team, I guess if I thought we were really close to competing I might feel differently, but I see how far off we are and I'm fine with taking the franchise LT to start the process of building this team in Reggie and DAs vision. I don't really think picking any certain position is a luxury we can't afford at this point in time because the whole team needs rebuilt for the most part.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

macklemore wrote:
Darkness wrote:
macklemore wrote:
Darkness wrote:
LivingLegendWFC wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
LivingLegendWFC wrote:
The way I see it is Velheer is fine at LT.We can keep him there and not have to worry about it for a while, I'd be perfectly fine with that. However if the staff feels like Joeckel is the best player on the board and a franchise LT and they want to slide Veldheer over to RT then that's great, it would be basically upgrading two positions at once.

I'm cool either way personally.


i always wonder why people think he can just slide to rt and be just as effective?


Because he's a very good run blocker and has good strength, and the one area he can struggle is against athletic sped rushers, he would see a lot less of those types of players playing against LEs.


Giving up a few pressures isn't the same as struggling either. All LT's are going to be more susceptible to getting beat against the leagues best pass rushers. Those are the only players that have a chance to begin with against Veldheer. He did a hell of a job making opposing teams rushers non factors.


If he is so good why would it be so bad to have two of him?


Did you see where I said that was a luxury we can't afford?


Yes, but that makes no sense, why couldn't we afford the luxury of having the best young tackles in the nfl?

One defensive prospect isn't going to fix the defense.


Everyone knows we need defensive help badly, but I agree with you here. An elite LT would transform our offense. Even if JV has been playing well at LT, drafting Joekel and moving JV to RT could give us bookends. One player would severely improve our line and the entire offense all together, whereas one DE won't solve our run stopping issues, one DT won't help our pass rush, and one MLB won't help our pass defense. I really don't think we can go wrong with any position, since there are so many needs, but you can't deny the fact that an elite LT with JV at RT could be all we need to go back to a top-10 offense, whereas our defense will still struggle even with Moore, Star, Teo, Mingo, or whoever.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:39 am    Post subject: Re: Tired of my Boy Jared Veldheer being thrown under the bu Reply with quote

La_Vader wrote:
we have a QB with no mobility, who is pass happy, and always has the ball in his hands in Palmer.


I distinctly remember silver_surfer saying this exact, dumb line, word for word. Just sayin'...

1) Palmer displayed surprisingly good mobility and escapability all season in an offense he had never played in, doing things he had never been asked to do, with linemen blocking very poorly for much of the year
2) Pass happy? We gave up 28 PPG... How many games did we lead at halftime? Of course we passed a lot
3) Always has the ball in his hands? You do know that the OC calls the plays, not Palmer, right? Or are you claiming Palmer is a glory hog who changes plays in the huddle to feed his ego?
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Last edited by ZoomWaffle on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totty wrote:
macklemore wrote:
Totty wrote:
I am starting to warm up to the Luke Joeckel idea. Someon in here said, slide Jared to the RT spot, and you have essentially upgraded two positions.

This could be something...

Idea


That was me.

And not only do you upgrade two positions, you also improve the entire offense.

- QB will have more room and time in the pocket
- WR's will have more time to get open
- RB's will have more room to run
- TE's will be used less to stay in and block


I am worried about the whole Robert Gallery fiasco... I don't want that all over again.


But the same could be said about any position. I mean Milliner could be the next Fabian Washington, Teo could be the next Rolando, Star could be the next Gerard Warren, and Werner or Moore could be the next Tyler Brayton. Just because we missed with Gallery nearly ten years ago doesn't mean we should avoid the drafts top LT if he is available.
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bigjohn


Joined: 09 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The HC Wanted too run the zone offense so we so added players too the club to run his offense it hasn't work at all. The running game went backward.

We'd be better off running a PBS and adding said players too the offense instead of bringing zone offensive players. Put the blame were it belongs on this one on the HC and GM for fixing something that's not even broke. Do a TD and running totals from last year too this year you'll see a huge drop off.

I'd draft Defense first.


Our guards stink if there's anyplace to upgrade I'd start there.
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Bo_Spice


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
This will all be a moot point if we trade down anyway.

I would actually rather draft Alabama OC Barrett Jones who could play OG and RT as well. Then we could have him battle in camp with Wiz with the "loser" moving to OG. Of if Wiz wins we could possibly move Jones out to RT with Bergstrom playing the empty OG position.

Bottom line, draft a versatile OL and put your best 5 on the field.

And by the way, Veldheer is just fine where he is. Rolling Eyes


Barrett Jones is a guy I really like towards the end of the first round. He's never going to be a dominant offensive lineman but he has enough versatility to play all five spots on the offensive line. He has the potential to be a really good center or guard, a good right tackle, or a solid left tackle at the next level.
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NCOUGHMAN


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LivingLegendWFC wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
LivingLegendWFC wrote:
The way I see it is Velheer is fine at LT.We can keep him there and not have to worry about it for a while, I'd be perfectly fine with that. However if the staff feels like Joeckel is the best player on the board and a franchise LT and they want to slide Veldheer over to RT then that's great, it would be basically upgrading two positions at once.

I'm cool either way personally.


i always wonder why people think he can just slide to rt and be just as effective?


Because he's a very good run blocker and has good strength, and the one area he can struggle is against athletic sped rushers, he would see a lot less of those types of players playing against LEs.


i would argue that ive seen him shut down jared allen and other speed rushers before imo he is a better pass blocker than run blocker. run blocking is just the icing on the cake. i would hate to move him when he is just getting his lt craft refined. if it aint broke dont fix it type mentality
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Darkness


Joined: 24 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LivingLegendWFC wrote:
Darkness wrote:
LivingLegendWFC wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
LivingLegendWFC wrote:
The way I see it is Velheer is fine at LT.We can keep him there and not have to worry about it for a while, I'd be perfectly fine with that. However if the staff feels like Joeckel is the best player on the board and a franchise LT and they want to slide Veldheer over to RT then that's great, it would be basically upgrading two positions at once.

I'm cool either way personally.


i always wonder why people think he can just slide to rt and be just as effective?


Because he's a very good run blocker and has good strength, and the one area he can struggle is against athletic sped rushers, he would see a lot less of those types of players playing against LEs.


Giving up a few pressures isn't the same as struggling either. All LT's are going to be more susceptible to getting beat against the leagues best pass rushers. Those are the only players that have a chance to begin with against Veldheer. He did a hell of a job making opposing teams rushers non factors.


I think your over rating how well Veldheer played slightly. He was very good for us, but he did have games where he got worked by the man in front of him. Maybe he does only struggle against the leagues best pass rushers but if you peg Joeckel as a franchise LT capable of shutting those guys down consistently and thus allow you to move Veldheer where he won't see as many of those elite pass rushers your setting your offense up with possibly the best foundation possible. Especially if we want to draft a QB of the future nextyear. Giving him two great OTs to keep him upright would do wonders for a young QB your trying to develop. Not to mention upgrading your ability to run the football, which again does magic for a young QB.

I would rather address the defensive side of the football, but what I'm saying is how upset could you really be if we draft an OT that many believe can become an elite OT at the NFL level and allows you to move a very good OT to the other side where his skill set is better suited (not to say he's ad at LT or that he can't continue to play there)? I don't get how its a luxury we can't afford, were numerous positions away from being competitive, we have a lengthy rebuild on our hands, if we decide that the best player available is an OT that will give us three great, young offensive linemen and want to build the foundation of this team on that concept I can't argue with it.

Again I want to go defense with our first pick, I think its what this team needs most at the moment, but in a rebuild especially you don't always draft for your biggest need. You bring in the best football players and build your foundation for success. Even if we get an impact defensive player we are still going to need pieces all over this team, I guess if I thought we were really close to competing I might feel differently, but I see how far off we are and I'm fine with taking the franchise LT to start the process of building this team in Reggie and DAs vision. I don't really think picking any certain position is a luxury we can't afford at this point in time because the whole team needs rebuilt for the most part.


But Veldheer did consistently do a good job against some of the leagues best. Just because he wasn't always perfect, doesn't mean he struggled. It seems like you're expecting Joeckel to be that, which won't happen. Regardless of how great a LT is, there's going to be games where he doesn't play as well as others. Assuming Joeckel will step in and allow as little pressure game in and game out as Veldheer did in our one dimensional, pass happy attack is very premature.
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