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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3755
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People are getting confused between read option and the pistol formation. The readoption is a offense and the pistol is a formation. Teams run a read option out of that formation but you can run a read option out of different formations or run a regular offense out of a pistol formation.
It's just a short shotgun.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22761
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't want to call it a gimmick, that's fine. My point is, it has a shelf life.

Nobody is being negative. It's just annoying when 1 team does something well, fans think THAT has to be incorporated into their teams offense. They start talking about their 3rd string QB running that offense despite the fact he hasn't got the arm to stretch a defense vertically.

If we are going to be a team that conforms to recent trends, I would rather take the Patriot approach. Call up Chip Kelly and have him advise the offense and go no huddle, up tempo.

The Pistol and read option have a shelf life. Just like the wildcat. Name a team who runs the wildcat now with success? It's dead.

DC's will start scheming for it and watch what happens. The fad will slowly die out.

Green Bay got diced by the read option this weekend. They were the team that saw it the least in 2012. Atlanta more or less shutdown the read option against Seattle.

This league will always be a conventional offensive league. Pocket passers will prevail w/ longevity and defenses will adjust to the trends. Always have, always will.
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are tons of teams running it on every level.
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
People are getting confused between read option and the pistol formation. The readoption is a offense and the pistol is a formation. Teams run a read option out of that formation but you can run a read option out of different formations or run a regular offense out of a pistol formation.
It's just a short shotgun.


Exactly. We give different looks by running the read option out of divide backs because we have two excellent running backs. Or we can go single back from the pistol with a RB on the wing for the threat of a counter. And our QB is about 6-1, 225 and a pure pocket passer. We run it from the pistol not to threaten the defense with our QB running, but with the other (and shorter RB) on the wing with the counter because you can't see him.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
bitty wrote:
People are getting confused between read option and the pistol formation. The readoption is a offense and the pistol is a formation. Teams run a read option out of that formation but you can run a read option out of different formations or run a regular offense out of a pistol formation.
It's just a short shotgun.


Exactly. We give different looks by running the read option out of divide backs because we have two excellent running backs. Or we can go single back from the pistol with a RB on the wing for the threat of a counter. And our QB is about 6-1, 225 and a pure pocket passer. We run it from the pistol not to threaten the defense with our QB running, but with the other (and shorter RB) on the wing with the counter because you can't see him.


niners ran alot of runs up the middle out of the pistol. thats how they set gb up for kap to bust loose. i wanna see the niners vrs atl but i like the pistol cause it keeps the defense guessing. imo it isnt even a read option the way harbaugh runs it. i never saw kap fake a hand off then strait up run it. the only time kap got loose is when clay rushed wide leaving a huge hole for kap to scramble through.
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Raiiiiidersssss


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pryor in a Redskins pistol with McFadden, Reece, and Goodson in a power blocking scheme
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raiiiiidersssss wrote:
Pryor in a Redskins pistol with McFadden, Reece, and Goodson in a power blocking scheme


And teams would stack the box against it because Pryor isn't beating anyone deep.

The read option portion of the pistol will be shored up by DCs soon here. So what else can Pryor bring?
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Raiiiiidersssss wrote:
Pryor in a Redskins pistol with McFadden, Reece, and Goodson in a power blocking scheme


And teams would stack the box against it because Pryor isn't beating anyone deep.

The read option portion of the pistol will be shored up by DCs soon here. So what else can Pryor bring?


Swag.



But in all honesty, he still can improve as a passer. I know you're skeptical, as am I, but we both know he's gonna bust his behind trying to get better. I see no reason to assume he will or won't become a better passer. So until, I see results of his work this offseason next August then I'm not going to assume anything on either side. I will still be skeptical though
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Raiiiiidersssss wrote:
Pryor in a Redskins pistol with McFadden, Reece, and Goodson in a power blocking scheme


And teams would stack the box against it because Pryor isn't beating anyone deep.

The read option portion of the pistol will be shored up by DCs soon here. So what else can Pryor bring?


First this is an assumption. Second this isnt something defenses has to catch up with. This isnt the wildcat. What you are saying its like saying defenses will catch up with the I formation or defenses will catch up with the ZBS or defenses will catch up with the Shotgun. Yes defense will learn to defend it better but it still can be effective just like all those other formations I named. Whats the difference between handing it off to Mcfadden out of the single back, I formation or pistol. The thing is Pistol dosent equal Pryor.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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Location: ATL
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Raiiiiidersssss wrote:
Pryor in a Redskins pistol with McFadden, Reece, and Goodson in a power blocking scheme


And teams would stack the box against it because Pryor isn't beating anyone deep.

The read option portion of the pistol will be shored up by DCs soon here. So what else can Pryor bring?


Swag.



But in all honesty, he still can improve as a passer. I know you're skeptical, as am I, but we both know he's gonna bust his behind trying to get better. I see no reason to assume he will or won't become a better passer. So until, I see results of his work this offseason next August then I'm not going to assume anything on either side. I will still be skeptical though


For me, I just haven't seen enough improvement from college to now as a passer. I just don't see an inaccurate passer becoming accurate. Would love to see it happen, but if history tells us anything, it won't.
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BBIB


Joined: 20 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:


The Pistol and read option have a shelf life. Just like the wildcat. Name a team who runs the wildcat now with success? It's dead.

DC's will start scheming for it and watch what happens. The fad will slowly die out.

Green Bay got diced by the read option this weekend. They were the team that saw it the least in 2012. Atlanta more or less shutdown the read option against Seattle.

This league will always be a conventional offensive league. Pocket passers will prevail w/ longevity and defenses will adjust to the trends. Always have, always will.


Russell Wilson had almost 500 yards of offense vs my Falcons. You call that shutting down the non-pocket QB?

And again continuing to compare the pistol offense to the wildcat is ridiculous not just because we say it's ridiculous but because schematically they couldn't be any different

THe Wildcat is literally just a series of plays. The type of gaps that the ball carrier can run through are limited and above all the threat of the pass is limited

It's no shock that something that relies on Ronnie Brown passing the ball can be schemed against by a defensive coordinator.

If you're comparing that to the pistol offense which again is a FORMATION not a series of plays, when the pistol offense has the entire passing tree opened up to it with route combinations like any other formation, again that's moronic


The idea that it will be stopped is not based on anything but wishful thinking. Not track record. Because for it to be based on track record the two would have to be analogous

And to schematically compare the wildcat to the pistol offense is as asinine as comparing 5 wide receiver shot gun offense to a regular passing attack just because they both use the pass
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:


First this is an assumption. Second this isnt something defenses has to catch up with. This isnt the wildcat. What you are saying its like saying defenses will catch up with the I formation or defenses will catch up with the ZBS or defenses will catch up with the Shotgun. Yes defense will learn to defend it better but it still can be effective just like all those other formations I named. Whats the difference between handing it off to Mcfadden out of the single back, I formation or pistol. The thing is Pistol dosent equal Pryor.


Exactly. That just shows the ignorance. "People will catch up to the pistol"

Really? So how's catching up to the shotgun working out for defenses?

And the pistol offense in theory is even a more dangerous offense to defend than the shotgun because the threat of the run from the running back, let alone the QB is far more dangerous because the RB is in position to run downhill
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Why such heated discussion about a formation that is highly unlikely to be the base formation of the Raiders new OC?

2) The run-and-shoot was a formation that was ultimately determined to be logistically flawed. Hence it has a shelf-life unless used sparingly which is how I could see the pistol being implemented, sparingly. The shotgun works but not long-term as the base of an offense.

3) While a running QB is not required to run the pistol the teams that deploy it most often only target running QBs, obviously the creator knows what king of QB would be most effective in a pistol. Promoting the pistol is just a covet way to promote the QB you want behind center.

Two or three plays. Sure. Other than that. . . .pfft.
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Raiders4sho!


Joined: 21 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
1) Why such heated discussion about a formation that is highly unlikely to be the base formation of the Raiders new OC?

2) The run-and-shoot was a formation that was ultimately determined to be logistically flawed. Hence it has a shelf-life unless used sparingly which is how I could see the pistol being implemented, sparingly. The shotgun works but not long-term as the base of an offense.

3) While a running QB is not required to run the pistol the teams that deploy it most often only target running QBs, obviously the creator knows what king of QB would be most effective in a pistol. Promoting the pistol is just a covet way to promote the QB you want behind center.

Two or three plays. Sure. Other than that. . . .pfft.


Uhm no it was a scheme. And as far as shotgun it's becoming more and more prevalent. The point is no team runs ace every down. No team uses shotgun every down. When you combine them with each other and variations and other formations then you have an offense you can use. Adding pistol looks in various concentrations makes your offense all that more formidable. It's not a gimmick, it's a formation.
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Raiders4sho!


Joined: 21 Jan 2009
Posts: 1801
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an interview with ault that talks about pistol and Kaep. It touches on some of the points I made. Also makes me wish we could've completed that trade for Kaep....

http://t.co/M5MC2fUE
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