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Burgesskills
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1168
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 Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | A yes. Let's run the recent gimmick offense or better yet, lets just go back to 5 years ago's gimmick and run the wildcat.
No gimmicks please! They all have a shelf life.
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Palooka I really looked up to you as a poster around here for years, but wow. You spew so much negativity and things that don't make sense lately.
The pistol is not a gimmick. A standard shotgun lines the QB 7 yards behind the center giving him time to find his receivers before pressure gets to him, but out of the shotgun its harder to read what the D is sending. The pistol in usually 4 yards behind the center, it allows the QB to read D and still have time before pressure arrives. It works well with athletic, mobile QB's such Kap or RGIII...it's also nice to line the RB next to the QB to and to allow the QB to run the read option where they can hand off, tuck the ball to run, or play action...its not a gimmick. The Redskins and 49ers don't utilize it every play it's a mix.. it would work well with Pryor....
Why are there so many haters/negative posters around here. We all root for the same team and want the same things. |
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Dessie
Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 6644
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Burgesskills wrote: | | Quote: | A yes. Let's run the recent gimmick offense or better yet, lets just go back to 5 years ago's gimmick and run the wildcat.
No gimmicks please! They all have a shelf life.
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Palooka I really looked up to you as a poster around here for years, but wow. You spew so much negativity and things that don't make sense lately.
The pistol is not a gimmick. A standard shotgun lines the QB 7 yards behind the center giving him time to find his receivers before pressure gets to him, but out of the shotgun its harder to read what the D is sending. The pistol in usually 4 yards behind the center, it allows the QB to read D and still have time before pressure arrives. It works well with athletic, mobile QB's such Kap or RGIII...it's also nice to line the RB next to the QB to and to allow the QB to run the read option where they can hand off, tuck the ball to run, or play action...its not a gimmick. The Redskins and 49ers don't utilize it every play it's a mix.. it would work well with Pryor....
Why are there so many haters/negative posters around here. We all root for the same team and want the same things. |
Lol, the irony.  |
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La_Vader
Joined: 04 Jan 2013
Posts: 182
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Burgesskills wrote: | | Quote: | A yes. Let's run the recent gimmick offense or better yet, lets just go back to 5 years ago's gimmick and run the wildcat.
No gimmicks please! They all have a shelf life.
_________________ |
Palooka I really looked up to you as a poster around here for years, but wow. You spew so much negativity and things that don't make sense lately.
The pistol is not a gimmick. A standard shotgun lines the QB 7 yards behind the center giving him time to find his receivers before pressure gets to him, but out of the shotgun its harder to read what the D is sending. The pistol in usually 4 yards behind the center, it allows the QB to read D and still have time before pressure arrives. It works well with athletic, mobile QB's such Kap or RGIII...it's also nice to line the RB next to the QB to and to allow the QB to run the read option where they can hand off, tuck the ball to run, or play action...its not a gimmick. The Redskins and 49ers don't utilize it every play it's a mix.. it would work well with Pryor....
Why are there so many haters/negative posters around here. We all root for the same team and want the same things. |
he is negative |
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macklemore
Joined: 27 Apr 2012
Posts: 1424
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| La_Vader wrote: | | Burgesskills wrote: | | Quote: | A yes. Let's run the recent gimmick offense or better yet, lets just go back to 5 years ago's gimmick and run the wildcat.
No gimmicks please! They all have a shelf life.
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Palooka I really looked up to you as a poster around here for years, but wow. You spew so much negativity and things that don't make sense lately.
The pistol is not a gimmick. A standard shotgun lines the QB 7 yards behind the center giving him time to find his receivers before pressure gets to him, but out of the shotgun its harder to read what the D is sending. The pistol in usually 4 yards behind the center, it allows the QB to read D and still have time before pressure arrives. It works well with athletic, mobile QB's such Kap or RGIII...it's also nice to line the RB next to the QB to and to allow the QB to run the read option where they can hand off, tuck the ball to run, or play action...its not a gimmick. The Redskins and 49ers don't utilize it every play it's a mix.. it would work well with Pryor....
Why are there so many haters/negative posters around here. We all root for the same team and want the same things. |
he is negative |
Palooka is a well known troll in the bronco forum, he is probably just really [inappropriate/removed] about them doing so good and the raiders doing so bad. hopefully he chills out.
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BBIB
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 8771
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| big_palooka wrote: | A yes. Let's run the recent gimmick offense or better yet, lets just go back to 5 years ago's gimmick and run the wildcat.
No gimmicks please! They all have a shelf life. |
The Redskins were top 5 in the league in scoring this year
The Pistol offense is not a gimmick. It's based off of a formation. The wildcat is just a series of plays that is reliant on NFL RBs for a very limited passing tree to say the least in the few pass variations out of it
The Pistol offense stretches the entire football field vertically and horizontally.
The people calling it a gimmick are going to look as absurd as people calling the singleback formation as a gimmick. Or the shotgun formation as a gimmick |
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JTagg7754
Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 15392
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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I remember when people said the wildcat wasn't a gimmick and every team should employ that also. Give me an offense that keeps the QB upright so he can last for a long time rather than one that will make him prone to big hits ala RGIII this season. No thanks on that.
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DOCLEW 28
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 11203
Location: East Oakland
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| Baggabonez wrote: | | Raiders4sho! wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | A yes. Let's run the recent gimmick offense or better yet, lets just go back to 5 years ago's gimmick and run the wildcat.
No gimmicks please! They all have a shelf life. |
Comments like this show no understanding of what the pistol really is. It is not a gimmick offense by any means, it is just a versatile formation, allows for more spread looks and allows the deep back to the ball earlier and find his hole with the ball. I ran it and high school it offers even more versatility with an athletic QB but even that isn't totally necessary. |
Thanks for your educational comments. I too was/am of the mindset that the pistol was a gimmick offense and have a short shelf life. However, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the pistol despite following the Mtn West Conf. I was under the impression that having a QB with the ability to run was the X-factor that allows the pistol to be effective. Could you cite an example of a true pocket passer who played mainly in a pistol package? |
On a lower level we had a QB that was a slow footed pocket passer and we ran it to perfection. The kid threw for about 28 TD's and over 2500 yards and the team rushed for over 1500 yards two years in a row. He would have been a D1 prospect if he didn't take his 93 mph fast ball to Oregon State on a full ride next year.
And there have not been very many NFL guys who have played mainly in the pistol because it was mostly a college offense since it was only created within the last 10 years. With more teams running it you will begin to see more. And you don't need to be a pocket passer or a running QB any more these days. Offenses are so versitile that you can use anyone you want back there and simply play to their strengths or plug and play them in your system.
And running the fly or counters out of the pistol is devestating.
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Raider X hooked me with the sig |
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Bo_Spice
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 9687
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:56 am Post subject: |
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I'd like to see some variation of the pistol offense incorporated into our playbook, especially if Pryor's running the offense, but I don't think we could realistically expect to use it full-time and succeed. I'd be in favor of using a similar offense to the one Hue used during his time here while incorporating elements of the pistol in our shot gun sets.
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Last edited by Bo_Spice on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DOCLEW 28
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 11203
Location: East Oakland
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| JTagg7754 wrote: | | I remember when people said the wildcat wasn't a gimmick and every team should employ that also. Give me an offense that keeps the QB upright so he can last for a long time rather than one that will make him prone to big hits ala RGIII this season. No thanks on that. |
What are you talking about??? The pistol is not a QB running offense. Its actually designed for better vision for the RB and gives the QB a run/pass option for the RB or WR's. You can also run a ton of fly or counters from it. RGIII gets hurt because he is prone to running. Its not the fault of theoffense.
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Raider X hooked me with the sig |
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Baggabonez
Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 8060
Location: RaiderNation
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| DOCLEW 28 wrote: | | Baggabonez wrote: | | Raiders4sho! wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | A yes. Let's run the recent gimmick offense or better yet, lets just go back to 5 years ago's gimmick and run the wildcat.
No gimmicks please! They all have a shelf life. |
Comments like this show no understanding of what the pistol really is. It is not a gimmick offense by any means, it is just a versatile formation, allows for more spread looks and allows the deep back to the ball earlier and find his hole with the ball. I ran it and high school it offers even more versatility with an athletic QB but even that isn't totally necessary. |
Thanks for your educational comments. I too was/am of the mindset that the pistol was a gimmick offense and have a short shelf life. However, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the pistol despite following the Mtn West Conf. I was under the impression that having a QB with the ability to run was the X-factor that allows the pistol to be effective. Could you cite an example of a true pocket passer who played mainly in a pistol package? |
On a lower level we had a QB that was a slow footed pocket passer and we ran it to perfection. The kid threw for about 28 TD's and over 2500 yards and the team rushed for over 1500 yards two years in a row. He would have been a D1 prospect if he didn't take his 93 mph fast ball to Oregon State on a full ride next year.
And there have not been very many NFL guys who have played mainly in the pistol because it was mostly a college offense since it was only created within the last 10 years. With more teams running it you will begin to see more. And you don't need to be a pocket passer or a running QB any more these days. Offenses are so versitile that you can use anyone you want back there and simply play to their strengths or plug and play them in your system.
And running the fly or counters out of the pistol is devestating. |
Thank you and S&B88 for responding however no one has addressed the question which was: Can you cite an example of a true pocket passing QB who has run the pistol so we can compare. Those who are proponents of the pistol said that the pistol offense is for any kind of QB. If that were true than you would think Ault would have recruited pocket passing QBs. Since 2005, when Ault is credited for primarily going pistol full-time the starting Reno QBs are:
2005: Jeff Rowe
2006: Jeff Rowe
2007: kaepernick
2008: Kaepernick
2009: Kaepernick
2010: Kaepernick
2011: Fajardo/Lantrip
2012: Cody Fajardo
Being very familiar with but not an expert on the pistol my contention was I was under the impression that the pistol required the threat of a running QB to make the system work. Since 2005, every QB has been a running QB.
Imo, the suggestion that a true pocket passer in the mold of Manning, Brady or Palmer could effectively run a pistol offense is false. period. Football is a conformist sport in a non-conformist city. We want to believe that we can do things in a non-conformist way and still win to valid ourselves. We are bitter that non-conformists never get opportunities to prove this point. It's why we always root for the underdog, and non-conformist QBs and rooted for an owner who was different. To be honest, non-conformity was partly one of the original reasons I became a Raiders fan.
However, non-conformity isn't new and the facts are a non-traditional QB has yet to win a Super Bowl or find consistent success. Keep holding on to that fleeting dream as the physicality of the game and the rules of game are edited to facilitate conformity at the QB position. You can't win unless have a QB and you can't have the entire viability of your franchise exposing itself unnecessarily to injury as the QB streaks down field.
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| Nodisrespect wrote: | | (on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly. |
| Bonez wrote: | | Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly |
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Baggabonez
Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 8060
Location: RaiderNation
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Burgesskills wrote: | | Quote: | A yes. Let's run the recent gimmick offense or better yet, lets just go back to 5 years ago's gimmick and run the wildcat.
No gimmicks please! They all have a shelf life.
_________________ |
Palooka I really looked up to you as a poster around here for years, but wow. You spew so much negativity and things that don't make sense lately.
The pistol is not a gimmick. A standard shotgun lines the QB 7 yards behind the center giving him time to find his receivers before pressure gets to him, but out of the shotgun its harder to read what the D is sending. The pistol in usually 4 yards behind the center, it allows the QB to read D and still have time before pressure arrives. It works well with athletic, mobile QB's such Kap or RGIII...it's also nice to line the RB next to the QB to and to allow the QB to run the read option where they can hand off, tuck the ball to run, or play action...its not a gimmick. The Redskins and 49ers don't utilize it every play it's a mix.. it would work well with Pryor....
Why are there so many haters/negative posters around here. We all root for the same team and want the same things. |
Are we talking football or politics? Regardless, there is a perfect analogy. There is a lot at stake and sides vehemently disagree on how to get the Raiders where they need to be.
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| Nodisrespect wrote: | | (on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly. |
| Bonez wrote: | | Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly |
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BBIB
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 8771
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| JTagg7754 wrote: | | I remember when people said the wildcat wasn't a gimmick and every team should employ that also. Give me an offense that keeps the QB upright so he can last for a long time rather than one that will make him prone to big hits ala RGIII this season. No thanks on that. |
Just because they have both running components, comparing the wildcat to the pistol is about as sensible as comparing Steve Spurrier's 5 wide receiver on every down offense to an offense with 3 WR sets and TEs
IN fact it's even more dissimilar than that. The Wildcat had a RUNNING BACK behind center for crying out loud.
And there were not the options even in the running game in the wildcat as there are in the pistol
In the pistol, the RB is running down hill and can run through basically through all the gaps on both sides of the OLine
The same for the QB
And the entire passing tree is available in the playaction game |
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BBIB
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 8771
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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The Raiders have to be insane not to consider the possibility of Pryor and the Pistol offense
They should be the main team going after Greg Roman |
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dante9876
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 26898
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Baggabonez wrote: | | DOCLEW 28 wrote: | | Baggabonez wrote: | | Raiders4sho! wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | A yes. Let's run the recent gimmick offense or better yet, lets just go back to 5 years ago's gimmick and run the wildcat.
No gimmicks please! They all have a shelf life. |
Comments like this show no understanding of what the pistol really is. It is not a gimmick offense by any means, it is just a versatile formation, allows for more spread looks and allows the deep back to the ball earlier and find his hole with the ball. I ran it and high school it offers even more versatility with an athletic QB but even that isn't totally necessary. |
Thanks for your educational comments. I too was/am of the mindset that the pistol was a gimmick offense and have a short shelf life. However, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the pistol despite following the Mtn West Conf. I was under the impression that having a QB with the ability to run was the X-factor that allows the pistol to be effective. Could you cite an example of a true pocket passer who played mainly in a pistol package? |
On a lower level we had a QB that was a slow footed pocket passer and we ran it to perfection. The kid threw for about 28 TD's and over 2500 yards and the team rushed for over 1500 yards two years in a row. He would have been a D1 prospect if he didn't take his 93 mph fast ball to Oregon State on a full ride next year.
And there have not been very many NFL guys who have played mainly in the pistol because it was mostly a college offense since it was only created within the last 10 years. With more teams running it you will begin to see more. And you don't need to be a pocket passer or a running QB any more these days. Offenses are so versitile that you can use anyone you want back there and simply play to their strengths or plug and play them in your system.
And running the fly or counters out of the pistol is devestating. |
Thank you and S&B88 for responding however no one has addressed the question which was: Can you cite an example of a true pocket passing QB who has run the pistol so we can compare. Those who are proponents of the pistol said that the pistol offense is for any kind of QB. If that were true than you would think Ault would have recruited pocket passing QBs. Since 2005, when Ault is credited for primarily going pistol full-time the starting Reno QBs are:
2005: Jeff Rowe
2006: Jeff Rowe
2007: kaepernick
2008: Kaepernick
2009: Kaepernick
2010: Kaepernick
2011: Fajardo/Lantrip
2012: Cody Fajardo
Being very familiar with but not an expert on the pistol my contention was I was under the impression that the pistol required the threat of a running QB to make the system work. Since 2005, every QB has been a running QB.
Imo, the suggestion that a true pocket passer in the mold of Manning, Brady or Palmer could effectively run a pistol offense is false. period. Football is a conformist sport in a non-conformist city. We want to believe that we can do things in a non-conformist way and still win to valid ourselves. We are bitter that non-conformists never get opportunities to prove this point. It's why we always root for the underdog, and non-conformist QBs and rooted for an owner who was different. To be honest, non-conformity was partly one of the original reasons I became a Raiders fan.
However, non-conformity isn't new and the facts are a non-traditional QB has yet to win a Super Bowl or find consistent success. Keep holding on to that fleeting dream as the physicality of the game and the rules of game are edited to facilitate conformity at the QB position. You can't win unless have a QB and you can't have the entire viability of your franchise exposing itself unnecessarily to injury as the QB streaks down field. |
Again you are confusing Pistol with Read option out of the Pistol. Cam ran the option out of the shotgun and he is just as prone to injury as RG3 is running the read option out of the Pistol. The reason he has recruited running QBs is cause it make the Pistol even harder to defend. When you QB can trun the edge and get 15 yards or just the fake where he is taking a linebacker aqway from the running back. Kirk Cousins lined up in the Pistol against the Browns when RG3 was out would you consider him a pocket passer. Only difference is he didnt do the read option part. He just either handed off or did play action for the most part.
Shanny is still running a zone blocking scheme offense. Houston and Skins offense is not really that much different, One runs it out of i formations and single back while the other runs it out of the pistol(with some read option added). Redskins go deep and for the most part use the middle of the field and screens the same as Houston passing game for the most part. |
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Bo_Spice
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 9687
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| BBIB wrote: | The Raiders have to be insane not to consider the possibility of Pryor and the Pistol offense
They should be the main team going after Greg Roman |
Why would Greg Roman leave San Francisco to coach in Oakland? He has more talent in San Fran, they might win it all this year, and he's setting himself up to get a head coaching position in the near future.
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