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at23steelers


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steelcurtain29 wrote:
at23steelers wrote:
@SC: I really like your logic and it makes sense. I wouldn't oppose getting a LT for the future if one falls, especially since we probably won't draft this high in future years. However, I'd like to give one more year to the two rookies and Gilbert to see if any of those three can be a left tackle. It was only Beachum's and Adams' first year and you know how Tomlin says year 1 to year 2 is usually the biggest jump. Im starting to seriously question Gilbert, but I'd give him one more shot too.


Understandable, but Adams showed all the signs of a pure RT. He had the movement, but not the bend needed for that ability to stop the edge rusher. He'll get better as a pass blocker and become an above-average pass blocker, but become an elite run blocker. I have no problem with him being just a RT; because I think he'll be a damn good one. Neither he or Gilbert showed any signs of being capable of taking over that LT spot, however. I saw more potential in Beachum than Gilbert, honestly. I just don't like Beachum at LT unless we had a quality LG to help out.


So what about a line of: Beachum-DD-Pouncey-Foster-Adams. The problem is Beachum doesn't have the height IMO to be a left tackle.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelers22 wrote:
I like option two better but I don't like either. If we take another offensive lineman in round 1, i'll be irate. We need an OLB in the worst way and there's plenty worth a first round pick. Mingo, Ansah and Jordan are all names that could be there come our pick and considering our knack for developing productive linebackers, I would feel very comfortable taking any of those guys particularly Ansah.


1. You are correct, we need an OLB like we need oxygen
2. If Mingo, Ansah, and Jordan are there at 1.17, I'd pass on all 3 of them
3. Well, I'd have to do some more homework on Ansah to see if he can actually be an OLB. I do love his game and his hands, but I just can't see a 6'5 275 lb OLB with his frame being comfortable rushing from a standup position. He absolutely screams 43 DE to me
4. Jordan isn't a 34 OLB. He's a 43 SLB, and his schematic versatility are, in my opinion, completely overrated
5. Mingo is a tall version of Jason Worilds. All speed, no technique, anchor, or strength
6. Let's take a step back and look at the LBs we've developed lately, and compare to the # we've struck out on

the good:
Timmons - 4 years into his career
Woodley - unfortunately seems to be stricken by the Curse of the Bon-Bon

the bad:
Jason Worilds - 2nd rounder, 3 years into his career has yet to beat an offensive tackle for a sack
Chris Carter - invisible
Sylvester Stevenson - the consummate "fan favorite" who is now, and always will be, a special teams guy

the ugly:
Thad Gibson - 4th rounder, a banner year for us that season, 2 drafted LBs, to strikeouts
Bruce Davis - dear god help me please
Mike Humpal - totally forgot we even drafted this goof

jury is still out on Sean Spence.

so in 8 "at bats", we have 2 hits and 3 absolute strikeouts.
.250 batting average

dunno. I'm not as optimistic, although I do like the crop of potential guys we have possibly lined up.

Heck, we may end up drafting Ezekiel Ansah in the 1st and Kevin Minter in the 2nd (or Kiko Alonso in the 3rd) and then we'll be perfectly set to finally make the invevitable switch to the 4-3.

Wink Mr. Green
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

at23steelers wrote:
steelcurtain29 wrote:
at23steelers wrote:
@SC: I really like your logic and it makes sense. I wouldn't oppose getting a LT for the future if one falls, especially since we probably won't draft this high in future years. However, I'd like to give one more year to the two rookies and Gilbert to see if any of those three can be a left tackle. It was only Beachum's and Adams' first year and you know how Tomlin says year 1 to year 2 is usually the biggest jump. Im starting to seriously question Gilbert, but I'd give him one more shot too.


Understandable, but Adams showed all the signs of a pure RT. He had the movement, but not the bend needed for that ability to stop the edge rusher. He'll get better as a pass blocker and become an above-average pass blocker, but become an elite run blocker. I have no problem with him being just a RT; because I think he'll be a damn good one. Neither he or Gilbert showed any signs of being capable of taking over that LT spot, however. I saw more potential in Beachum than Gilbert, honestly. I just don't like Beachum at LT unless we had a quality LG to help out.


So what about a line of: Beachum-DD-Pouncey-Foster-Adams. The problem is Beachum doesn't have the height IMO to be a left tackle.


1. Re-sign Starks as Adams and Gilbert continue to develop
2. Possibly Adams or Gilbert will develop enough to be ready to start at LT by next year

OL: Starks/Foster/Pouncey/DD/Adams or Gilbert

Beachum, Legs and Adams or Gilbert whomever doesn't start at RT are reserves

You know sometimes, you actually have to show patience with young players and continue to develop them into the starters you want them to be.

This team has definitely addressed the OL a lot and IMO enough for a few years other than some mid and late round picks for depth for the next few drafts- maybe longer.

2010- 1st round center, Pouncey
2011- 2nd round Tackle, Gilbert
2012- 1st round Guard, Decastro
2nd round Tackle, Adams

There aren't too many teams in the NFL that have that much young talent on the OL. Actually, IMO there isn't another team with that much young talent on the OL. Have patience and let Gilbert, Decastro and Adams develop! Wink
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Last edited by turtle28 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steelcurtain29 wrote:
I'll take option 2 if you change round three to Lester and round 5 to Geathers.


ick. Geathers is downright terrible. For a 350-lb guy, he is incredibly easy to move off at the PoA. That interior defense's success was predicated on JJ holding his ground. Geathers is just a fat tub of garbage. If Willie Colon was even fatter and played for Georgia, he'd be Kwame Geathers.

Dook wrote:
Don't see the need for OT Fisher in the 1st. Maybe Starks does not get signed but I think we're pretty confidant in Adams or Gilbert playing left tackle and maybe even Foster or Beachum if absolutely necessary.


good heavens, please tell me you're not suggesting Foster or Beachum at LT?

steelcurtain29 wrote:
Glad you're not running this organization. Adams showed he has no signs of moving from RT anytime soon


Mike Adams is going to be our LT next season, because we won't resign Starks.

steelcurtain29 wrote:
Eric Fisher is a perfect LT, especially for Ben. He's not the strongest, but he can hold his own. He's very smart and extremely agile. Starks likely won't be back and it's time we got a long-term answer; Fisher is that answer.


Fisher is a young Max Starks with more athleticism. I don't prefer the pick in the 1st round, but based on who is available, I might not mind the pick at all. I think Lewan's performance against Clowney cemeneted him as the 2nd OT off the board, and with Matthews going back to TAM to help Johnny Football get a 2nd Heisman (and so he can have a full season at LT so he'll go top 10 next season), Fisher is the 3rd best OT in a great top end OT class.

I don't know that he's a better LT than Warmack is a LG. I do know that I want Starks back and would kick Colon to the curb to open 2013 cap space at the expense of 2014's cap.

If the coaching staff is as intent on becoming a left-handed running team, then going with Chance Warmack makes perfect sense.

1. Move Adams to LT
2. Plug Chance Warmack in, who really can be a Carl Nicks-type difference maker in the run game
3. Allow our best pulling OG pull behind the wall of Adams and Warmack

I have visions of the Seattle Seahawks from the mid-2000s with Jones and Hutch. Obviously Adams can't pass pro like Jones (ok, name some who could?) but he absolutely shows dominance as a run blocker, and a team that runs to the weakside very well can be an absolute KILLER as a play action passing team

I do think this is the direction Haley wants to head.

Beachum is a backup.
Foster is an OG who can fill in at RT in a pinch, but he will need help.

the thing that is really going to monkeywrench our early 2013 season is no Heath.

steelcurtain29 wrote:
Understandable, but Adams showed all the signs of a pure RT. He had the movement, but not the bend needed for that ability to stop the edge rusher. He'll get better as a pass blocker and become an above-average pass blocker, but become an elite run blocker. I have no problem with him being just a RT; because I think he'll be a damn good one. Neither he or Gilbert showed any signs of being capable of taking over that LT spot, however. I saw more potential in Beachum than Gilbert, honestly. I just don't like Beachum at LT unless we had a quality LG to help out.


yeah, I can't argue this, but I think Haley wants to move away from the "conventional" right handed running team, which would explain their absolute dedication to keeping our only pulling OG on the roster (DeCastro) at RG, and the talk of Adams to LT as Max moves on.

I like Elam's aggressiveness, but I question his instincts. I see a DeAngelo Hall type at safety, one who goes for the big play (or big hit) and misses almost as often as he hits.

I'll say this though, I frickin' LOVE watching him play. His aggressiveness and fire and willingness to really push things...he's Ryan Clark as a kid. I have to watch some more on that Fresno kid.

Geathers is a fat tub of goo. No thanks. He offers nothing that Fangupo or Ta'amu don't already offer.
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armsteeld


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
armsteeld wrote:
Geathers is straight garbage. Elam in the 1st? Undersized and I question his quickness and speed. I hate slow and small as a Safety.
he plays the game like Ed Reed and Sean Taylor with that type of tenacity. He isn't as good as those two, but he plays like that.

He's definitely a 1st round pick. He's the 1st or 2nd safety to come off the board.

Also how is 5'10, 202 lbs undersized to play safety? Shocked Laughing Shame on you

Geathers hasn't lived up to his hype. He's huge, has untapped talent and needs better coaching. Getting him that late in the draft and being patient on his developing and coaching him up will pay off in the long run.


Elam reminds me of a poor mans Bob Sanders. Yes he is undersized for a Safety. He will probably measure in at 5'8 or 5'9 and is small but put him as a Cover 2 CB if he measures that small and he could be successful.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

armsteeld wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
armsteeld wrote:
Geathers is straight garbage. Elam in the 1st? Undersized and I question his quickness and speed. I hate slow and small as a Safety.
he plays the game like Ed Reed and Sean Taylor with that type of tenacity. He isn't as good as those two, but he plays like that.

He's definitely a 1st round pick. He's the 1st or 2nd safety to come off the board.

Also how is 5'10, 202 lbs undersized to play safety? Shocked Laughing Shame on you

Geathers hasn't lived up to his hype. He's huge, has untapped talent and needs better coaching. Getting him that late in the draft and being patient on his developing and coaching him up will pay off in the long run.


Elam reminds me of a poor mans Bob Sanders. Yes he is undersized for a Safety. He will probably measure in at 5'8 or 5'9 and is small but put him as a Cover 2 CB if he measures that small and he could be successful.
hahahhahahahahahha Laughing hahahhahahahahahha Rolling Eyes

There is not one thing he doesn't do well as a safety. He actually reminds me of Troy Polamalu

Have you even seen him play? I assure you he is not a cover 2 cb, he is arguably the best safety prospect in the 2012 draft buddy. Geeze! Shocked
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like Elam, but the Bob Sanders comparison is pretty valid I think. I do love watching him play though
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Gatoradus


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shame on you

Shamarko Thomas is Bob Sanders 2.0, no one else can steal the comparsion from the kid!

Very Happy
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steelcurtain29


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

at23steelers wrote:
So what about a line of: Beachum-DD-Pouncey-Foster-Adams. The problem is Beachum doesn't have the height IMO to be a left tackle.


I don't like the idea of DD at LG. You're moving him from RG; which takes away his ability to pull. Seeing his college tapes and how agile and aggressive he can be, I think you're removing his best asset by having him at LG.

kethnaab wrote:
Fisher is a young Max Starks with more athleticism.


Not sure how I feel about that comparison Think I think he's extremely similar to Joe Staley.
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Dook


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:


Dook wrote:
Don't see the need for OT Fisher in the 1st. Maybe Starks does not get signed but I think we're pretty confidant in Adams or Gilbert playing left tackle and maybe even Foster or Beachum if absolutely necessary.


good heavens, please tell me you're not suggesting Foster or Beachum at LT?


What I suggested was Starks, Adams, or Gilbert at LT and Foster or Beachum if ABSOLUTELY necessary, meaning, if Starks, Adams, and Gilbert all get injured during the season. Don't be too quick to think that Foster can't play LT in the future, no one thought Starks could either.

I think Adams is the future at LT, whether that starts next season or the one after, no one knows. I don't know if we will sign Starks or not but I don't see why others are so sure about it. For the price he's the best deal in the NFL. It may depend on whether he's still available after June 1st if we let Colon go and have the $5.5m to spend.
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kysteeler


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that Foster will test the market and get a decent offer elsewhere. We still have Colon until the draft, and at this point in the draft we're looking at two things in the 1st round in my opinion at 17.

1. Finish the D-line (Williams, Jenkins, Hankins)
2. Finish the O-line (Warmack)

It doesn't make sense to me to draft two build the lines and leave wholes.

I personally would save the money on Foster and take Warmack. After the worst rushing season since 2003, we need a stud LG to aid in closing out games and its added protection for Ben. Plus I like McClendon to take over the NT spot.

Taking a OLB in the first would be nice, but I don't think that there will be a good one available, would much rather go there in the mid rounds. Worilds is going to be the starter if Harrison is out, no way around it.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kysteeler wrote:
I believe that Foster will test the market and get a decent offer elsewhere. We still have Colon until the draft, and at this point in the draft we're looking at two things in the 1st round in my opinion at 17.

1. Finish the D-line (Williams, Jenkins, Hankins)
2. Finish the O-line (Warmack)

It doesn't make sense to me to draft two build the lines and leave wholes.

I personally would save the money on Foster and take Warmack. After the worst rushing season since 2003, we need a stud LG to aid in closing out games and its added protection for Ben. Plus I like McClendon to take over the NT spot.

Taking a OLB in the first would be nice, but I don't think that there will be a good one available, would much rather go there in the mid rounds. Worilds is going to be the starter if Harrison is out, no way around it.
you don't need all 1st and second round OL to have a successful OL. The redskins have only 2 drafted that high (Trent Williams & Chris Chester) and they are the best run blocking OL in the nfl.

1. Re-sign Foster. he's not going to be getting some huge contractTake a guard in free agency that won't be unaffordable.

2. Take a guard prospect in the mid rounds
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
you don't need all 1st and second round OL to have a successful OL. The redskins have only 2 drafted that high (Trent Williams & Chris Chester) and they are the best run blocking OL in the nfl.


ZBS has very different requirements than standard man blocking.
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steelcurtain29


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Redskins didn't draft Chris Chester. He was drafted years ago by the Ravens.
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kysteeler


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
kysteeler wrote:
I believe that Foster will test the market and get a decent offer elsewhere. We still have Colon until the draft, and at this point in the draft we're looking at two things in the 1st round in my opinion at 17.

1. Finish the D-line (Williams, Jenkins, Hankins)
2. Finish the O-line (Warmack)

It doesn't make sense to me to draft two build the lines and leave wholes.

I personally would save the money on Foster and take Warmack. After the worst rushing season since 2003, we need a stud LG to aid in closing out games and its added protection for Ben. Plus I like McClendon to take over the NT spot.

Taking a OLB in the first would be nice, but I don't think that there will be a good one available, would much rather go there in the mid rounds. Worilds is going to be the starter if Harrison is out, no way around it.
you don't need all 1st and second round OL to have a successful OL. The redskins have only 2 drafted that high (Trent Williams & Chris Chester) and they are the best run blocking OL in the nfl.

1. Re-sign Foster. he's not going to be getting some huge contractTake a guard in free agency that won't be unaffordable.

2. Take a guard prospect in the mid rounds


I understand we don't need 1st or 2nd round picks to fill those holes, but if Warmack is as good as people believe him to be, I just don't see how your could pass on potentially someone who could be one of the best at his position. Ben getting hurt is still an issue, so if we is out we are going to need a good run game.

Based on the projections right now, I just don't see a better 1st round prospect, unless someone falls to us is all I'm saying.
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