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Steelers picking 17th - player discussion
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 9970
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
HeySteelers wrote:
John Jenkins has the ability to dominate offensive lines. He needs to work on technique, he gets too high too often, needs to learn how to shed blocks rather than running through them. He needs to condition better. He has this power and drive to take two offensive lineman and drive them into the QBs lap. He is a boom or bust imo.

I like Jesse Williams. He uses his hands really well and gets low. Really good at shedding the block for the wrap up. Wouldn't mind seeing him at 17.


think about what the Steelers use Hampton for. What does he have to do? Now compare Jenkins and Williams and tell me which would better fit the role that Hampton does right now.

Jenkins will be a decent NT in a 4-3 defense. He is not a NT in a 3-4 defense. He would have to be retrained. Or you can just take the player that is much like Hampton coming out of college.


exactly.

Remember, improving that NT position is CRITICAL to the success of our defense, and a guy like Williams makes Timmons that much better. As I've said on multiple occasions, I don't think it's coincidence that Timmons' peaks and valleys the last 3 seasons mirrors Snack's play almost identically.
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chieferific wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
jebrick wrote:
He is also not a pass rusher so his value will drop in this draft that is loaded with Defensive talent.


exactly

which is why I think he could possibly drop to the 2nd round.

But do you take that chance if he is indeed the player you want? After all, 4-3 teams don't just draft pass rushing DL. They draft run stuffers as well. Perhaps not in the 1st but in the 2nd is a possibility.
good point because Jesse Williams won't be there in round 2 for that selection.

If they like him, they should select him.
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1BackInBlackFan


Joined: 29 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
HeySteelers wrote:
John Jenkins has the ability to dominate offensive lines. He needs to work on technique, he gets too high too often, needs to learn how to shed blocks rather than running through them. He needs to condition better. He has this power and drive to take two offensive lineman and drive them into the QBs lap. He is a boom or bust imo.

I like Jesse Williams. He uses his hands really well and gets low. Really good at shedding the block for the wrap up. Wouldn't mind seeing him at 17.


think about what the Steelers use Hampton for. What does he have to do? Now compare Jenkins and Williams and tell me which would better fit the role that Hampton does right now.

Jenkins will be a decent NT in a 4-3 defense. He is not a NT in a 3-4 defense. He would have to be retrained. Or you can just take the player that is much like Hampton coming out of college.


I definitely feel Jenkins can be a NT in the 3-4. I don't see that there would be a problem. However, if I had the choice I like Williams better.
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stefan52268


Joined: 14 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1BackInBlackFan wrote:
jebrick wrote:
HeySteelers wrote:
John Jenkins has the ability to dominate offensive lines. He needs to work on technique, he gets too high too often, needs to learn how to shed blocks rather than running through them. He needs to condition better. He has this power and drive to take two offensive lineman and drive them into the QBs lap. He is a boom or bust imo.

I like Jesse Williams. He uses his hands really well and gets low. Really good at shedding the block for the wrap up. Wouldn't mind seeing him at 17.


think about what the Steelers use Hampton for. What does he have to do? Now compare Jenkins and Williams and tell me which would better fit the role that Hampton does right now.

Jenkins will be a decent NT in a 4-3 defense. He is not a NT in a 3-4 defense. He would have to be retrained. Or you can just take the player that is much like Hampton coming out of college.


I definitely feel Jenkins can be a NT in the 3-4. I don't see that there would be a problem. However, if I had the choice I like Williams better.



I like Williams better than Jenkins as well but Doesn't Georgia run a 3/4 base D? So Jenkins is technically a NT in a 3/4 D. I know the NFL is on a whole different level than college but I don't think he will have to be Retrained much.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefan52268 wrote:
1BackInBlackFan wrote:
jebrick wrote:
HeySteelers wrote:
John Jenkins has the ability to dominate offensive lines. He needs to work on technique, he gets too high too often, needs to learn how to shed blocks rather than running through them. He needs to condition better. He has this power and drive to take two offensive lineman and drive them into the QBs lap. He is a boom or bust imo.

I like Jesse Williams. He uses his hands really well and gets low. Really good at shedding the block for the wrap up. Wouldn't mind seeing him at 17.


think about what the Steelers use Hampton for. What does he have to do? Now compare Jenkins and Williams and tell me which would better fit the role that Hampton does right now.

Jenkins will be a decent NT in a 4-3 defense. He is not a NT in a 3-4 defense. He would have to be retrained. Or you can just take the player that is much like Hampton coming out of college.


I definitely feel Jenkins can be a NT in the 3-4. I don't see that there would be a problem. However, if I had the choice I like Williams better.



I like Williams better than Jenkins as well but Doesn't Georgia run a 3/4 base D? So Jenkins is technically a NT in a 3/4 D. I know the NFL is on a whole different level than college but I don't think he will have to be Retrained much.


for the most part, yes, but the way Georgia has their DTs play is different than how we have them play. Jenkins gets moved by the double team WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY easier than Williams despite being 30 lbs heavier, and alot slower (especially later in the drive and/or game)
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lebeau (oh crap did I say a bad name?? Laughing Rolling Eyes ) and his staff have a knack of developing defenders some of us wonder if they will fit our scheme into good or great players. I have faith in them, even if others have lost some faith over the past few years as the defense has aged and gotten injured.

I'm fine with either Williams or Jenkins if the team goes in that direction. Look at what they did in developing McClendon, Woodley, Timmons, Lewis, Allen

All guys who needed a lot of transitional coaching to their new roles when they were drafted but all look like key parts of this defenses future.
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Lebeau (oh crap did I say a bad name?? Laughing Rolling Eyes ) and his staff have a knack of developing defenders some of us wonder if they will fit our scheme into good or great players. I have faith in them, even if others have lost some faith over the past few years as the defense has aged and gotten injured.


well, see, that's kinda the point. we say that we develop defensive linemen really well, but who have we developed on the defensive line in the last half decade?

turtle28 wrote:
Look at what they did in developing McClendon, Woodley, Timmons, Lewis, Allen


McClendon has proven nothing other than he cannot hold the point, is poor against the run, but can rush from the interior.

I have faith in Carnell Lake, as I've said many times. I have less faith in John Mitchell.

Jenkins is a pure space eater with poor physical conditioning. Why is that important? Because he provides the same vulnerability against the zone stretch and cut blocking that have ripped us to shreds. Think it's a coincidence those ZBS teams run the ball down our throats? Think it's a coincidence Alabama ran for 350 yards against the 'dawgs? Jenkins is really the only run stopper on that team and he couldn't hang. Williams provides just as much anchor, in a much better conditioned package.

We already have enough issues with players being fat unconditioned slobs. We don't need to add another, and I hope like hell we don't.
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Gatoradus


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think at this point, everybody knows Jesse Williams will have to be taken in 1st round. Jesse Williams is not only easily best 3-4 NT, but 3-4 DE... You don't see a prospect like him very often. I understand why would some teams rank him 2nd, but for the rarity, to us especially me, he's a 1st rounder.
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HeySteelers


Joined: 16 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
stefan52268 wrote:
1BackInBlackFan wrote:
jebrick wrote:
HeySteelers wrote:
John Jenkins has the ability to dominate offensive lines. He needs to work on technique, he gets too high too often, needs to learn how to shed blocks rather than running through them. He needs to condition better. He has this power and drive to take two offensive lineman and drive them into the QBs lap. He is a boom or bust imo.

I like Jesse Williams. He uses his hands really well and gets low. Really good at shedding the block for the wrap up. Wouldn't mind seeing him at 17.


think about what the Steelers use Hampton for. What does he have to do? Now compare Jenkins and Williams and tell me which would better fit the role that Hampton does right now.

Jenkins will be a decent NT in a 4-3 defense. He is not a NT in a 3-4 defense. He would have to be retrained. Or you can just take the player that is much like Hampton coming out of college.


I definitely feel Jenkins can be a NT in the 3-4. I don't see that there would be a problem. However, if I had the choice I like Williams better.



I like Williams better than Jenkins as well but Doesn't Georgia run a 3/4 base D? So Jenkins is technically a NT in a 3/4 D. I know the NFL is on a whole different level than college but I don't think he will have to be Retrained much.


for the most part, yes, but the way Georgia has their DTs play is different than how we have them play. Jenkins gets moved by the double team WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY easier than Williams despite being 30 lbs heavier, and alot slower (especially later in the drive and/or game)


He gets moved when he plays high. When he uses proper form he has the ability to destroy double teams, and he does.

I've seen games where Jenkins is beating double teams late into the 4th quarter.

His first step and punch is mean. Hurts the defender. Defensive tackles don't need to run 40 yards, judge him by his first 10 yards.

I like Williams and like the fact that he plays "leabeu 2-gap" extremely well, to answer your question Jebrick. Though my problem with Williams is our DEs aren't Smith and Kimo anymore. They are Hood, Heyward, and Keisel. All three have the ability to rush the passer, I wouldn't mind seeing a d-line that attacked the passer a bit more. And I think Jenkins, who I firmly believe can play NT in a 3-4 defense, would be a better fit for our current d-line than Williams. Lebeau is known to adjust to his players. In a passing league you need your dline to have the ability to rush the passer. He needs work, but this man has so much talent.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HeySteelers wrote:
Lebeau is known to adjust to his players.


Not really.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HeySteelers wrote:
Lebeau is known to adjust to his players. .


I'd argue the opposite. It takes a LONG time to adjust to his players. He's stll trying to get Ziggy to play like Aaron Smith, still has his OLBs dropping back into coverage 40% of the time.
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HeySteelers


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is not perfect, look at all the man coverage we played this year. It's because the players strengths are man coverage. Outside linebackers weren't getting pressure so he started using a lot more inside blitz. Clark goes out with an injury, Polamalu plays deep safety. He makes makes adjustments. You can't have Hood attack while Hampton and Keisel are playing 2 gap all the time. That is ridiculous. His entire 3/4 occupy the blockers 2 gap scheme needs some adjustments, imo, he doesn't have the right personnel for that anymore. If he does want to keep his current system, we are going to need to find a replacement for Hood IMO, because he has been terrible in this system. I think our current defensive line would benefit from playing in a similar 3/4 defense to the Texans. It's a passing league now, it would be nice if our defensive line could generate some pressure.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HeySteelers wrote:
He is not perfect, look at all the man coverage we played this year. It's because the players strengths are man coverage. Outside linebackers weren't getting pressure so he started using a lot more inside blitz. Clark goes out with an injury, Polamalu plays deep safety. He makes makes adjustments. You can't have Hood attack while Hampton and Keisel are playing 2 gap all the time. That is ridiculous. His entire 3/4 occupy the blockers 2 gap scheme needs some adjustments, imo, he doesn't have the right personnel for that anymore. If he does want to keep his current system, we are going to need to find a replacement for Hood IMO, because he has been terrible in this system. I think our current defensive line would benefit from playing in a similar 3/4 defense to the Texans. It's a passing league now, it would be nice if our defensive line could generate some pressure.


solid. I can agree with most of that.
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Bobikus


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
HeySteelers wrote:
Lebeau is known to adjust to his players.


Not really.


Not adjusting to his players is probably his biggest flaw as a DC.
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at23steelers


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's just too hard for me to say how well he is at adapting to player's strength. I just don't know how much power our positional coaches have. It seems to me like the DB's play more to their strengths than our defensive line does. Is that Carnall Lake's doing or Lebeau's? Is the defensive line Mitchell's doing or Lebeau's? Too tough for me to say.
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