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Why I love and at the same time DESPISE - LeBeau
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lewis is Ike Taylor hands of stone

Cortez Allen has more forced fumbles than either Ike Taylor or Keenan Lewis. He also has something that Lewis and Ike lack: ball skills (and hands)

I'm confident Carnell Lake can teach guys how to cover, but I don't think he can teach guys to catch.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
Lewis is Ike Taylor hands of stone

Cortez Allen has more forced fumbles than either Ike Taylor or Keenan Lewis. He also has something that Lewis and Ike lack: ball skills (and hands)

I'm confident Carnell Lake can teach guys how to cover, but I don't think he can teach guys to catch.


I'm not gonna give C. Lake that much credit because just like every other coordinator he'll get bashed also.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
Lewis is Ike Taylor hands of stone

Cortez Allen has more forced fumbles than either Ike Taylor or Keenan Lewis. He also has something that Lewis and Ike lack: ball skills (and hands)

I'm confident Carnell Lake can teach guys how to cover, but I don't think he can teach guys to catch.


I'm not gonna give C. Lake that much credit because just like every other coordinator he'll get bashed also.


???

What other coordinators/positional coaches get bashed?

Arians and Kugler have been the only ones over the last few years to really get slammed.

There are criticism about LeBeau and Mitchell here and there, but they dont get bashed.
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Bobikus


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Allen more than Lewis still.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
Lewis is Ike Taylor hands of stone

Cortez Allen has more forced fumbles than either Ike Taylor or Keenan Lewis. He also has something that Lewis and Ike lack: ball skills (and hands)

I'm confident Carnell Lake can teach guys how to cover, but I don't think he can teach guys to catch.


I'm not gonna give C. Lake that much credit because just like every other coordinator he'll get bashed also.


i don't understand what you're trying to say.

are you saying that Lake doesn't deserve credit?
are you saying that you don't want to give Lake credit because he'll end up getting bashed?

i'm cornfoosed.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
Lewis is Ike Taylor hands of stone

Cortez Allen has more forced fumbles than either Ike Taylor or Keenan Lewis. He also has something that Lewis and Ike lack: ball skills (and hands)

I'm confident Carnell Lake can teach guys how to cover, but I don't think he can teach guys to catch.


I'm not gonna give C. Lake that much credit because just like every other coordinator he'll get bashed also.


i don't understand what you're trying to say.

are you saying that Lake doesn't deserve credit?
are you saying that you don't want to give Lake credit because he'll end up getting bashed?

i'm cornfoosed.


Im guessing the latter, but as I said...its not like all coordinators and position coaches get bashed on here. Critcism comes with the job, but the only ones ever really bashed over the last couple years have been Arians and Kugler, and thats after a couple years of being terrible.

Lake has had nothing except positive effects on our secondary. Much better than Horton as a secondary coach, although Horton is doing a nice job as DC.

Lake deserves tons of credit. Only way he will get bashed is if we have several years of our DBs making the same mistakes over and over....and thus far, I notice a huge difference in just that. Our DBs have their issues, but unlike in seasons past, they seem to fix it, at least to the best of their ability.

I love Lake. Was thrilled with the hire. I just have a feeling that he is going to get hired elsewhere soon.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C. Lake has taken the job at the right time along with the Steelers drafting 1 good CB during that time. K. Lewis showed flashes of ability under Horton. I'm not taking anything away from C. Lake, but he's walk into a very favorable situation.

I remember all the kudos S. Kugler was getting his first season.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:
I'm not taking anything away from C. Lake, but he's walk into a very favorable situation.



I don't understand how you can assert this.

The Steelers' CBs were terrible under Horton. McFadden and Gay both regressed.

Who did we have for Lake to work with?

1. William Gay - one season with Carnell Lake, and William Gay, who was (arguably) the worst CB in the NFL, improved by leaps and bounds and earned himself a starting job out of town (thankfully)

2. Keenan Lewis - who never showed ANYTHING in a game situation under Horton, was looked at as "the guy" and Carnell Lake turned him into "the guy"

3. Here's a list of the DBs Horton had drafted for him: Ricardo Colclough, Bryant McFadden, Anthony Smith, Keenan Lewis, William Gay, Crezdon Butler, Ryan Mundy. Pretty crappy, huh? Guess what, the first 4 I listed were top 3 round draft picks.

4. Lake came in and immediately improved that secondary. All those years with Horton and our CBs stunk despite having a great pass rush. Lake has had ZERO pass rush and has produced 2 straight "#1 pass defense" seasons. I don't put a lot of stock in yards allowed or anything, but Lake worked some miracles with zero pass rush to support his DBs.

Lake didn't walk into a favorable situation. I cannot fathom how you think that. He walked into a garbage situation (1 old veteran, 1 young veteran who was one of the worst in the NFL, 1 china doll who couldn't stay healthy, and a bunch of nobody's who didn't belong in the NFL) and took the sour lemons he received and made pretty darn good lemonade.

I can't tell if you're being facetious or what, but this whole concept is as ridiculous to me as the Brandon Weeden > Andrew Luck thread

I mean, are you being serious?
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
I'm not taking anything away from C. Lake, but he's walk into a very favorable situation.



I don't understand how you can assert this.

The Steelers' CBs were terrible under Horton. McFadden and Gay both regressed.

Who did we have for Lake to work with?

1. William Gay - one season with Carnell Lake, and William Gay, who was (arguably) the worst CB in the NFL, improved by leaps and bounds and earned himself a starting job out of town (thankfully)

2. Keenan Lewis - who never showed ANYTHING in a game situation under Horton, was looked at as "the guy" and Carnell Lake turned him into "the guy"

3. Here's a list of the DBs Horton had drafted for him: Ricardo Colclough, Bryant McFadden, Anthony Smith, Keenan Lewis, William Gay, Crezdon Butler, Ryan Mundy. Pretty crappy, huh? Guess what, the first 4 I listed were top 3 round draft picks.

4. Lake came in and immediately improved that secondary. All those years with Horton and our CBs stunk despite having a great pass rush. Lake has had ZERO pass rush and has produced 2 straight "#1 pass defense" seasons. I don't put a lot of stock in yards allowed or anything, but Lake worked some miracles with zero pass rush to support his DBs.

Lake didn't walk into a favorable situation. I cannot fathom how you think that. He walked into a garbage situation (1 old veteran, 1 young veteran who was one of the worst in the NFL, 1 china doll who couldn't stay healthy, and a bunch of nobody's who didn't belong in the NFL) and took the sour lemons he received and made pretty darn good lemonade.

I can't tell if you're being facetious or what, but this whole concept is as ridiculous to me as the Brandon Weeden > Andrew Luck thread

I mean, are you being serious?


Agreed.

Face value alone....our CBs improved alot in one year from Horton to Lake.

And keep in mind, this is the first full season Lake had with these guys. the first year was abbreviated because of the lockout. Lake still helped some of them improve.

And Lewis may have shown some flashes under Horton, but Horton never got much out of him, and IMO, Lewis would still be medicore if Horton were still here.

I dont think Horton was awful, but I definitely like what Ive seen from Lake thus far more than what Horton ever did. As I stated, our CBs always seemed to lack discipline under Horton. Ive seen that change over the last 2 years.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
I'm not taking anything away from C. Lake, but he's walk into a very favorable situation.



I don't understand how you can assert this.

The Steelers' CBs were terrible under Horton. McFadden and Gay both regressed.

Who did we have for Lake to work with?

1. William Gay - one season with Carnell Lake, and William Gay, who was (arguably) the worst CB in the NFL, improved by leaps and bounds and earned himself a starting job out of town (thankfully)

2. Keenan Lewis - who never showed ANYTHING in a game situation under Horton, was looked at as "the guy" and Carnell Lake turned him into "the guy"

3. Here's a list of the DBs Horton had drafted for him: Ricardo Colclough, Bryant McFadden, Anthony Smith, Keenan Lewis, William Gay, Crezdon Butler, Ryan Mundy. Pretty crappy, huh? Guess what, the first 4 I listed were top 3 round draft picks.

4. Lake came in and immediately improved that secondary. All those years with Horton and our CBs stunk despite having a great pass rush. Lake has had ZERO pass rush and has produced 2 straight "#1 pass defense" seasons. I don't put a lot of stock in yards allowed or anything, but Lake worked some miracles with zero pass rush to support his DBs.

Lake didn't walk into a favorable situation. I cannot fathom how you think that. He walked into a garbage situation (1 old veteran, 1 young veteran who was one of the worst in the NFL, 1 china doll who couldn't stay healthy, and a bunch of nobody's who didn't belong in the NFL) and took the sour lemons he received and made pretty darn good lemonade.

I can't tell if you're being facetious or what, but this whole concept is as ridiculous to me as the Brandon Weeden > Andrew Luck thread

I mean, are you being serious?


How many times was the Steelers defense #1 versus the pass before C. Lake showed up? It just wasn't this year and I've mentioned this before, the Steelers pass defense changed after the Patriots game last year. The Steelers finally noticed that they had players who could play man coverage.

Why is everybody getting all testy about what I said. I'm not slandering C. Lake just stated the obvious. I know that's he's contributed towards the improved play of the Steelers CBs, but I'm not gonna give him all the credit.
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The Curtain


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
3. Here's a list of the DBs Horton had drafted for him: Ricardo Colclough, Bryant McFadden, Anthony Smith, Keenan Lewis, William Gay, Crezdon Butler, Ryan Mundy. Pretty crappy, huh? Guess what, the first 4 I listed were top 3 round draft picks.


Good lord that is so bad. Anthony Smith getting humiliated by Tom Brady is still really hilarious.
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jebrick


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
I'm not taking anything away from C. Lake, but he's walk into a very favorable situation.



I don't understand how you can assert this.

The Steelers' CBs were terrible under Horton. McFadden and Gay both regressed.

Who did we have for Lake to work with?

1. William Gay - one season with Carnell Lake, and William Gay, who was (arguably) the worst CB in the NFL, improved by leaps and bounds and earned himself a starting job out of town (thankfully)

2. Keenan Lewis - who never showed ANYTHING in a game situation under Horton, was looked at as "the guy" and Carnell Lake turned him into "the guy"

3. Here's a list of the DBs Horton had drafted for him: Ricardo Colclough, Bryant McFadden, Anthony Smith, Keenan Lewis, William Gay, Crezdon Butler, Ryan Mundy. Pretty crappy, huh? Guess what, the first 4 I listed were top 3 round draft picks.

4. Lake came in and immediately improved that secondary. All those years with Horton and our CBs stunk despite having a great pass rush. Lake has had ZERO pass rush and has produced 2 straight "#1 pass defense" seasons. I don't put a lot of stock in yards allowed or anything, but Lake worked some miracles with zero pass rush to support his DBs.

Lake didn't walk into a favorable situation. I cannot fathom how you think that. He walked into a garbage situation (1 old veteran, 1 young veteran who was one of the worst in the NFL, 1 china doll who couldn't stay healthy, and a bunch of nobody's who didn't belong in the NFL) and took the sour lemons he received and made pretty darn good lemonade.

I can't tell if you're being facetious or what, but this whole concept is as ridiculous to me as the Brandon Weeden > Andrew Luck thread

I mean, are you being serious?


I would argue that you got to see a change of schemes. Drafting Lewis, Allen and Brown was a shift from getting CB who were zone coverage players. Gay and McFadden sucked at bump man but that was fine because of the scheme. Allen, Ike and Lewis excel at Bump man and that is what the Steelers played a lot of this season.

Schemes are not changed overnight. They need the personnel to make them work.
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at23steelers


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks goodness I don't have to watch Gay and McFadden playing 15 yards past the LOS and the WR's completing 10 yard comeback routes on them over and over again. SteelProven, your argument is ridiculous. Who do you give credit to? Lake immensely improves the secondary players that were on the team when he came (Ike, Lewis, and even Ryan Clark playing at the peaks of their careers) while also developing our new guys into quality players, especially Cortez Allen. So, he comes in and does a good job and he doesn't get the credit. But Im sure if our secondary completely sucked, he'd get all the blame. Rolling Eyes
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:

How many times was the Steelers defense #1 versus the pass before C. Lake showed up? It just wasn't this year


actually, the only other time was 2008 when we put up 51 sacks and Troy was healthy the entire season.

SteelProven wrote:
and I've mentioned this before, the Steelers pass defense changed after the Patriots game last year. The Steelers finally noticed that they had players who could play man coverage.


the players showed they could play man in that game.

SteelProven wrote:
Why is everybody getting all testy about what I said. I'm not slandering C. Lake just stated the obvious. I know that's he's contributed towards the improved play of the Steelers CBs, but I'm not gonna give him all the credit.


because our CBs were considered the worst part of our defense, by far, before Lake came in. The change in our CB play was almost immediate. We've been #1 in passing yards allowed on back to back seasons despite generating almost no pressure, which is what our previous secondaries relied upon.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So C. Lake is the reason the Steelers play man coverage? No.

Lake is given the players drafted, Lake would of done nothing differently then Horton with the talent he was given. I can't say if Horton would of done better with this current talent pool, but it was leaning more that way. K. Lewis was going to play this year and the Steelers were going to more man coverage.

Horton DBs in AZ are far outperforming the DBs with the Steelers in the turnover departement. For all the bashing Horton got, that pass defense in AZ is just as good if not better then the Steelers. With the same issues very little pressure on the QB and AZ has 12 Ints

C. Lake still hasn't taught the Steelers DBs how to catch, still the same issue it was before. Troy and Clark gets 7-9 Ints, I. Taylor gets 1-2 whoever plays #2 and 3 get 1-2.
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