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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 10300
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bearsaddict wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
A good OC and Lovie don't go in the same sentence.

He had 9 years and 4 tries at getting this good OC and he has failed.

And I admit it may get worse before it gets better.
I wholeheartedly agree that a change needed to be made WC. The only place I differ with you is what the change needed to be. Lovie Smith had 3 distinct problems:
1. He is faithful to a fault
2. He is accepting of antiquated offensive philosophies, styles, and people who run them
3. and worst of all...the residual slime of Jerry Angelo that remains to this day because it just takes time to remove all of the goo from this poop monster.

Now, that being said, let me tell you why firing Lovie was a BAD move. Lovie Smith is very good at a lot of things. He is a GREAT defensive coach. He gets every single drop of effort out of every player on his teams, and his positive, never-say-die attitude is infectious and his players buy into it/him. Part of being a great leader is knowing your own limitations. If Lovie didn't know it already I've got a news flash, your offense isn't/wasn't working. What Emery SHOULD have done is tell Lovie, we think your overall performance is solid, especially since that schlub of a man Jerky Angelo gave you a worthless pile of crap to work with on offense. However, we cannot continue this offensive trend. I am going to get us a new, high powered offensive mind who will mix conventional wisdom with great forward thinking that will fuel mismatches, opportunities for the playmakers we have in space, and plays that will confuse and cross up defenses, leaving guys uncovered at times. We will work around the clock to get you a realistic offensive line, not a bunch of castoffs and UFAs. You might disagree with him because he will make big plays, and not just be conservative and NOT lose games, but will WIN us games. We will take chances, we will be balls out, and we will put points on the board. All you need to do is co-exist with him. You might not like him one bit, but he will be MY hire, and he will my responsibility if he is a miserable failure.

In this scenario you don't have to start over, you don't have to switch defensive schemes ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR D IS ESTABLISHED AND WORKING VERY VERY WELL, and you can tweak with the real possibility of a Superbowl instead of a guy coming in with the real possibility of blowing this thing up to get his own system going, and using at least one year and the end of some great players' careers to do it.


What killed Lovie is that he had 3-4 opportunities to get that guy on his own and he failed to do so.

I expect our defense to be top 12 next year regardless of who is coaching them they are too talented to not be.

Emery has a vision for this team and Lovie was not part of it.
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bearsaddict


Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 3544
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't get me wrong here WC, I don't think its outlandish for you to want Lovie to get the ax. As Superman has stated several times, the only guy you can truly blame Lovie for is Mike Tice, not the others. In my opinion you can't really heap blame on the guy due to the anchor that he dragged for years named Angelo.
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ak06max


Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 1242
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bearsaddict wrote:
Don't get me wrong here WC, I don't think its outlandish for you to want Lovie to get the ax. As Superman has stated several times, the only guy you can truly blame Lovie for is Mike Tice, not the others. In my opinion you can't really heap blame on the guy due to the anchor that he dragged for years named Angelo.



lovie sucks. Bills good luck
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Superman(DH23)


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 19347
Location: Abdi on the sick sig
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bearsaddict wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
A good OC and Lovie don't go in the same sentence.

He had 9 years and 4 tries at getting this good OC and he has failed.

And I admit it may get worse before it gets better.
I wholeheartedly agree that a change needed to be made WC. The only place I differ with you is what the change needed to be. Lovie Smith had 3 distinct problems:
1. He is faithful to a fault
2. He is accepting of antiquated offensive philosophies, styles, and people who run them
3. and worst of all...the residual slime of Jerry Angelo that remains to this day because it just takes time to remove all of the goo from this poop monster.

Now, that being said, let me tell you why firing Lovie was a BAD move. Lovie Smith is very good at a lot of things. He is a GREAT defensive coach. He gets every single drop of effort out of every player on his teams, and his positive, never-say-die attitude is infectious and his players buy into it/him. Part of being a great leader is knowing your own limitations. If Lovie didn't know it already I've got a news flash, your offense isn't/wasn't working. What Emery SHOULD have done is tell Lovie, we think your overall performance is solid, especially since that schlub of a man Jerky Angelo gave you a worthless pile of crap to work with on offense. However, we cannot continue this offensive trend. I am going to get us a new, high powered offensive mind who will mix conventional wisdom with great forward thinking that will fuel mismatches, opportunities for the playmakers we have in space, and plays that will confuse and cross up defenses, leaving guys uncovered at times. We will work around the clock to get you a realistic offensive line, not a bunch of castoffs and UFAs. You might disagree with him because he will make big plays, and not just be conservative and NOT lose games, but will WIN us games. We will take chances, we will be balls out, and we will put points on the board. All you need to do is co-exist with him. You might not like him one bit, but he will be MY hire, and he will my responsibility if he is a miserable failure.

In this scenario you don't have to start over, you don't have to switch defensive schemes ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR D IS ESTABLISHED AND WORKING VERY VERY WELL, and you can tweak with the real possibility of a Superbowl instead of a guy coming in with the real possibility of blowing this thing up to get his own system going, and using at least one year and the end of some great players' careers to do it.
Excellent, well written post BA
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 8044
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:08 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone else have Missing Lovie Smith Syndrome(MLS) Reply with quote

Sr7252 wrote:
Yes this is a real disease.

A part of me feels that this should have been a decision made a year later, with the joining of a good OC. If even then Lovie had failed, we could've fired him knowing very well that he deserved it.

I agree with Ditka.
I am terrorized with the idea that the World Is Coming to an End. How, oh how will we ever replace a coach who averages NINE wins a year?
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 8044
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sr7252 wrote:
But a part of you doesn't at least feel like what if things get worse?

I mean a year more with a good OC would have DEFINITELY made it clear.
It has been clear for a long time for many of us.

Why would you have any hope that Smith could choose a better OC? Don't you find it odd that ALL of them working for him were bad? Or that the HEAD Coach could not get an offense to work?
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 8044
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Sr7252 wrote:
But a part of you doesn't at least feel like what if things get worse?

I mean a year more with a good OC would have DEFINITELY made it clear.


I am almost 30 years old.

I do not remember the 1985 season.

I will risk being worse to have a chance at the Superbowl. I would rathe go 4-12 for 3 years and win a Superbowl in year 4 then be 10-6 or 9-7 and not really have a chance at the Superbowl for 4 years.

I don't care about 10-6 and missing the playoffs I want to win the games that count.
I'm 32, I remember the 85 season, more importantly I remember the 94-2004 seasons. I remember being the cellar dweller. Furthermore I'm smart enough to realize that when you fire a guy and he immediately becomes the best coach on the market, you made a bad decision.
We were in playoffs during that period one time less than under Smith. And that was horrid and under Smith great? LoL.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 8044
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bearsaddict wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
A good OC and Lovie don't go in the same sentence.

He had 9 years and 4 tries at getting this good OC and he has failed.

And I admit it may get worse before it gets better.
I wholeheartedly agree that a change needed to be made WC. The only place I differ with you is what the change needed to be. Lovie Smith had 3 distinct problems:
1. He is faithful to a fault
2. He is accepting of antiquated offensive philosophies, styles, and people who run them
3. and worst of all...the residual slime of Jerry Angelo that remains to this day because it just takes time to remove all of the goo from this poop monster.

Now, that being said, let me tell you why firing Lovie was a BAD move. Lovie Smith is very good at a lot of things. He is a GREAT defensive coach. He gets every single drop of effort out of every player on his teams, and his positive, never-say-die attitude is infectious and his players buy into it/him. Part of being a great leader is knowing your own limitations. If Lovie didn't know it already I've got a news flash, your offense isn't/wasn't working. What Emery SHOULD have done is tell Lovie, we think your overall performance is solid, especially since that schlub of a man Jerky Angelo gave you a worthless pile of crap to work with on offense. However, we cannot continue this offensive trend. I am going to get us a new, high powered offensive mind who will mix conventional wisdom with great forward thinking that will fuel mismatches, opportunities for the playmakers we have in space, and plays that will confuse and cross up defenses, leaving guys uncovered at times. We will work around the clock to get you a realistic offensive line, not a bunch of castoffs and UFAs. You might disagree with him because he will make big plays, and not just be conservative and NOT lose games, but will WIN us games. We will take chances, we will be balls out, and we will put points on the board. All you need to do is co-exist with him. You might not like him one bit, but he will be MY hire, and he will my responsibility if he is a miserable failure.

In this scenario you don't have to start over, you don't have to switch defensive schemes ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR D IS ESTABLISHED AND WORKING VERY VERY WELL, and you can tweak with the real possibility of a Superbowl instead of a guy coming in with the real possibility of blowing this thing up to get his own system going, and using at least one year and the end of some great players' careers to do it.
Smith was tied to every personnel decision and coaching hire Angelo made. He was Angelo's man and shared every weakness he had. These players were here because Smith wanted them. Don't fool yourself about that.

Emery explained why we took no OL last year in the draft which is exactly what many of us said here at the time. There weren't any worth the picks at the time. Coaching is the most significant aspect of winning in the NFL.
That is why our offense does not work.
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bearsaddict


Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 3544
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wrong on pretty much everything you said there Al. Apparently you don't remember the story a couple of years ago about the blow up at Halas Hall when the coaches and Angelo got into a shouting match and they told Angelo you have to get us better talent. Whilst on that subject, talent is the biggest difference maker in the NFL, not coaching. And finally, I wasn't talking about the draft last year so that is out of left field.
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topwop1


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 5534
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bearsaddict wrote:
Wrong on pretty much everything you said there Al. Apparently you don't remember the story a couple of years ago about the blow up at Halas Hall when the coaches and Angelo got into a shouting match and they told Angelo you have to get us better talent. Whilst on that subject, talent is the biggest difference maker in the NFL, not coaching. And finally, I wasn't talking about the draft last year so that is out of left field.


Well I think that goes without saying; however, mind you that every year there are loads of very talented players who enter the NFL and who turn out to be busts or not live up to their potential and aside from personal will, I think a lot of that has to do with coaching. So you can't just say that talented player A will succeed in the NFL because he's just that good or that just because this team drafts this said talented player they will be that much better. How many times have we seen that not work out before?
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bearsaddict wrote:
Wrong on pretty much everything you said there Al. Apparently you don't remember the story a couple of years ago about the blow up at Halas Hall when the coaches and Angelo got into a shouting match and they told Angelo you have to get us better talent. My father told me when very young not to believe anything you HEAR and only half of what you see. This way you don't believe such nonsense until proven true. Whilst on that subject, talent is the biggest difference maker in the NFL, not coaching. Then Smith is totally culpable for he was instrumental in collecting that talent. And finally, I wasn't talking about the draft last year so that is out of left field.
Angelo repeatedly tried to improve the Oline. Is it not true that more first round picks were spent on the Oline by him than on any other position.

A bad coach will cause even the best talent to lose. He does not make sure the high priced rb gets thrown to as intended. He does not make sure his team gets the initiative or get the best out of a rocket armed qb. He does misuse the clock, blow timeouts or doesn't make sure his qb has time to audible by getting the play in on time. He also does not allow an OC (EVERY OC) to do something different than what he wants. How good does a coach have to be to know when to use the QB sneak, or take points when they are there? We would have won the division but for the horrible coaching in the Seattle and Minn games.

Emery understands this. As I said at the time the Minn game was the fatal straw for Smith.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 8044
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

topwop1 wrote:
bearsaddict wrote:
Wrong on pretty much everything you said there Al. Apparently you don't remember the story a couple of years ago about the blow up at Halas Hall when the coaches and Angelo got into a shouting match and they told Angelo you have to get us better talent. Whilst on that subject, talent is the biggest difference maker in the NFL, not coaching. And finally, I wasn't talking about the draft last year so that is out of left field.


Well I think that goes without saying; however, mind you that every year there are loads of very talented players who enter the NFL and who turn out to be busts or not live up to their potential and aside from personal will, I think a lot of that has to do with coaching. So you can't just say that talented player A will succeed in the NFL because he's just that good or that just because this team drafts this said talented player they will be that much better. How many times have we seen that not work out before?
Leadership is critical in football as in most of life's endeavors. The difference in NFL rosters is not that great, in general; this is why there are just a handful of plays which makes the difference between winning and losing a game.

Since that difference is so small and the potential disaster from a bad play at a critical time and the necessity to seize every opportunity for victory leadership is even MORE critical. Knowing when NOT to do something is as important as knowing when to DO something as well.

The pay structure of the league supports what I am saying as well. A few super stars get paid big money while most of the rosters are built up of players who make a fraction of what the few do. Maybe a dozen players make up the heart of a team with a bunch of expendables completing the team.
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Yibbyl


Joined: 21 Apr 2011
Posts: 2391
Location: Redding, CA
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys, looking for a little insight/info on your coaching staff. Specifically, I'm wondering if the assistant coaches were let go with Lovie or were locked up with contracts, especially the defensive coaches? In other words, can Lovie take some/many/most of the defensive staff with him if (when) he gets hired? Are there any assistants you can identify that he would absolutely like to take with him?

Thanks and best of luck to you guys in this off-season.
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yibbyl wrote:
Hey guys, looking for a little insight/info on your coaching staff. Specifically, I'm wondering if the assistant coaches were let go with Lovie or were locked up with contracts, especially the defensive coaches? In other words, can Lovie take some/many/most of the defensive staff with him if (when) he gets hired? Are there any assistants you can identify that he would absolutely like to take with him?

Thanks and best of luck to you guys in this off-season.


They haven't been let go, but they will be soon.

My guess is that they will move on with Lovie.

Toub and Marinelli are very good but everyone on offense is terrible. Darryl Drake the WR coach is an idiot.
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Superman(DH23)


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yibbyl wrote:
Hey guys, looking for a little insight/info on your coaching staff. Specifically, I'm wondering if the assistant coaches were let go with Lovie or were locked up with contracts, especially the defensive coaches? In other words, can Lovie take some/many/most of the defensive staff with him if (when) he gets hired? Are there any assistants you can identify that he would absolutely like to take with him?

Thanks and best of luck to you guys in this off-season.
The assistants are all still under contract, but one of the beat guys said that he expects none of the assistants to stay. Most likely scenario is that the D staff (Rod Marinelli, Bob Babich, John Hoke), RBs coach Tim Spencer, WRs coach Daryl Drake, and the best ST Coach in the game Dave Toub all follow Lovie. Marinelli is a DL guru. Lance Briggs & Brian Urlacher say that Babich is an excellent LB coach, and John Hoke really turned around the secondary since he joined the staff in 2010. Daryl Drake was given absolute trash to work w/ for the most part until recently and has been able to get guys that shouldn't be playing WR in the NFL to look like avg NFL WRs. Dave Toub, as I stated earlier, is the best ST Coach in the NFL. Perrennially has his unit ranked as the best in the NFL. Was a strong candidate for the Miami HC job last year, and has been slapped in the face by the team by bringing in other ST coaches for interviews, but not interviewing him.
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