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Panthers to fire HC Ron Rivera; Update: staying next season
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Zithers


Joined: 15 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teams ron rivera has beat... with notes on each game afterward

2011:
jaguars... blaine gabbert's first start
redskins... john beck's first start w/ them
colts... curtis painter. enough said.
bucs x2... josh johnson starting... or i could just say that the team stopped caring
texans... tj yates and no wade phillips

2012:
chargers... after it was announced norv wasn't coming back
eagles... nick foles... and after everyone knew reid was gone
raiders... with matt leinart
saints... with their 3rd string head coach... then 2nd string head coach

then legit wins against the rg3skins and falcons i guess. neither team looked like they were trying though.

in addition to the above

2011: started 2-8, finished 4-2... hey we finished strong! with all of our injured players coming back a full offseason, we'll be even better

2012: started 2-8... oops. but hey, we finished 6-1! finishing strong is what counts!

in one score games, rivera is 2-12

so how about we all say "**** it," because 2013 is already over. rivera is not suited to be a head coach (i'll cite his terrible situational playcalling, horrid 4 minute offense and 2 minute drills, no adjustments - things i don't need to explain to fellow panther fans). he can coach up guys and draw up a good gameplan (why we're always in the lead) but he can't get it done as an in-game manager. there is no killer instinct. we play not to lose. it is embarrassing. add to the fact that our OWNER is deciding whether the coach stays, and not a new general manager, and we've just become even more of a joke. we are the worst landing spot for any GM because as far as he knows, he has no say in coaching matters and he's coming to a team with negative cap space.

in 2014 we'll be blowing the team up with all of the horrible contracts and a new staff. by then cam's rookie deal is coming to an end and he'll bolt out of town for a team that actually has a clue (since we probably won't be able to afford his option). carolina's biggest hope at winning a super bowl... dashed.[/b]
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
teams Cam Newton has beat... with notes on each game afterward

2011:
jaguars... blaine gabbert's first start
redskins... john beck's first start w/ them
colts... curtis painter. enough said.
bucs x2... josh johnson starting... or i could just say that the team stopped caring
texans... tj yates and no wade phillips

2012:
chargers... after it was announced norv wasn't coming back
eagles... nick foles... and after everyone knew reid was gone
raiders... with matt leinart
saints... with their 3rd string head coach... then 2nd string head coach

then legit wins against the rg3skins and falcons i guess. neither team looked like they were trying though.

in addition to the above

2011: started 2-8, finished 4-2... hey we finished strong! with all of our injured players coming back a full offseason, we'll be even better

2012: started 2-8... oops. but hey, we finished 6-1! finishing strong is what counts!

in one score games, Newton is
2-12

so how about we all say "**** it," because 2013 is already over. rivera is not suited to be a head coach (i'll cite his terrible situational playcalling, horrid 4 minute offense and 2 minute drills, no adjustments - things i don't need to explain to fellow panther fans). he can coach up guys and draw up a good gameplan (why we're always in the lead) but he can't get it done as an in-game manager. there is no killer instinct. we play not to lose. it is embarrassing. add to the fact that our OWNER is deciding whether the coach stays, and not a new general manager, and we've just become even more of a joke. we are the worst landing spot for any GM because as far as he knows, he has no say in coaching matters and he's coming to a team with negative cap space.

in 2014 we'll be blowing the team up with all of the horrible contracts and a new staff. by then cam's rookie deal is coming to an end and he'll bolt out of town for a team that actually has a clue (since we probably won't be able to afford his option). carolina's biggest hope at winning a super bowl... dashed.[/b]


Why dont we say Cam Newton isnt suited to be an NFL QB as well? They both share those bolded numbers.

And how is it a joke that JR made the decision? Stop. You are overreacting. Even if a GM was in place, that GM would still sit down with the owner and make that decision together.

Love how our quality wins were against teams that "werent trying." Way to stack the deck.
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RainbowCarebear


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure Rivera is the guy. But I do think he's worth given this last year, since they got their ish together late this year.
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:

Why dont we say Cam Newton isnt suited to be an NFL QB as well? They both share those bolded numbers.

And how is it a joke that JR made the decision? Stop. You are overreacting. Even if a GM was in place, that GM would still sit down with the owner and make that decision together.

Love how our quality wins were against teams that "werent trying." Way to stack the deck.


probably because cam isn't calling the plays. you do recall our last second losses thanks to prevent defense against the bucs and bears right? or the falcons? the saints last year? our inability to adjust against the vikings in 2011, who dominated the 4th quarter (until they themselves did the prevent... and we missed a field goal). we blew three possession leads to the falcons and lions last year. all of it repeated itself in 2012. rivera didn't learn anything. he let chudzinski ruin our offense. our special teams hasn't improved a lick. i mean... did you see last week's game? we were leading 41-24. 5 minutes later, prevent defense mode reared its ugly head, and just like that it was 44-38.

i understand that two years is not a long time. you can say we're too quick to judge. but i've seen enough. time and time again rivera makes the same mistakes. he hasn't shown any signs of getting better. i don't think we'll ever win a championship with him.
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nbaker1933


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think keeping Ron has more to do with your cap situation than anything.

I could see you cutting alot of players and him getting canned next year.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:

Why dont we say Cam Newton isnt suited to be an NFL QB as well? They both share those bolded numbers.

And how is it a joke that JR made the decision? Stop. You are overreacting. Even if a GM was in place, that GM would still sit down with the owner and make that decision together.

Love how our quality wins were against teams that "werent trying." Way to stack the deck.


probably because cam isn't calling the plays. you do recall our last second losses thanks to prevent defense against the bucs and bears right? or the falcons? the saints last year? our inability to adjust against the vikings in 2011, who dominated the 4th quarter (until they themselves did the prevent... and we missed a field goal). we blew three possession leads to the falcons and lions last year. all of it repeated itself in 2012. rivera didn't learn anything. he let chudzinski ruin our offense. our special teams hasn't improved a lick. i mean... did you see last week's game? we were leading 41-24. 5 minutes later, prevent defense mode reared its ugly head, and just like that it was 44-38.

i understand that two years is not a long time. you can say we're too quick to judge. but i've seen enough. time and time again rivera makes the same mistakes. he hasn't shown any signs of getting better. i don't think we'll ever win a championship with him.


But you are ignoring the catastrophic failure to execute in many of those games.

Look at the first Atlanta game. Rivera made the right call to ice the game. A designed run for Cam. Cam had the 1st down. It was clearly the right call. And the guy dove forward with the ball in one hand held 2 feet from his body. He fumbled it. Right call. Poor execution. And on the ensuing drive, the prevent was the right call. The prevent is meant to keep WRs from making those 50 yard catches. But what does Nakamura do? The safety let the receiver get behind him. And, to make matters worse, tries to recover by backpedalling.

You cant pin all that on the coach. All those losses could have been wins with better execution. Not falling when coming out of routes. Not missing field goals. Not dropping passes. Not throwing passes short/long/wide. Not comitting costly penalties.

Which, I am sure, will somehow all be laid on Rivera as well. Like, as in, "He's the coach. If theyre dropping passes, it's because he isnt teaching them to catch."
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
But you are ignoring the catastrophic failure to execute in many of those games.

Look at the first Atlanta game. Rivera made the right call to ice the game. A designed run for Cam. Cam had the 1st down. It was clearly the right call. And the guy dove forward with the ball in one hand held 2 feet from his body. He fumbled it. Right call. Poor execution. And on the ensuing drive, the prevent was the right call. The prevent is meant to keep WRs from making those 50 yard catches. But what does Nakamura do? The safety let the receiver get behind him. And, to make matters worse, tries to recover by backpedalling.

You cant pin all that on the coach. All those losses could have been wins with better execution. Not falling when coming out of routes. Not missing field goals. Not dropping passes. Not throwing passes short/long/wide. Not comitting costly penalties.

Which, I am sure, will somehow all be laid on Rivera as well. Like, as in, "He's the coach. If theyre dropping passes, it's because he isnt teaching them to catch."


players can absolutely execute better. but sometimes rivera sets them up for failure in the first place.

he could have grown a pair and gone for it. he could have pulled haruki for sherrod (as he began to do after this embarrassment). or put gamble on roddy instead of julio so that norman wasn't just running along with them, staring. that's something a coach would do, right? situational playcalling. there's three different scenarios that could have put us in a position to win.

we were leading late in the game against the bears and what do we do? throw it! of course, this wound up being a pick six. then what INGENIOUS idea did we have for the next drive.... ? run the ball!!! it resulted in a field goal. if we did that in the first place, the bears are down 8 points with like no time left. situational playcalling.

we run a bootleg against the seahawks on the what, 2 yard line? why not give it to tolbert or cam? i mean... in that same position for the rest of the season, they combined for like 12 rush TDs. almost certainly would have given us a better chance to score. before you mention the throw, i'll point out that the play was supposed to be for greg olsen, but it became broken (gee, imagine that) and hartsock wound up being the open receiver. situational playcalling.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He isnt great, but he should definitely get one more year.

Unless a coach is a complete disaster, every head coach taking over a poor team should get 3 years.

Its not as if they havent improved at all under him. That team was a complete mess when he took over. Now, they are getting closer to being a playoff team in the next 2 years....they shouldnt break that continuity unless they go BACKWARDS.

What they need to do is improve their interior DLine, get an impact player in the secondary, get another receiving weapon for Cam and get an OC that utilizes Cam properly.

IMO, the ideal situation would be....

1) Keep Rivera
2) Hire Chan Gailey for OC
3) Sign Dwayne Bowe
4) Draft DT Star Lotulelei

Obviously some will disagree....but if I were a Panther fan, Id love that.

The Panthers are actually one of my secondary teams along with the Chiefs, so Im hoping both of those teams can turn it around soon.
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:

1) Keep Rivera
2) Hire Chan Gailey for OC
3) Sign Dwayne Bowe
4) Draft DT Star Lotulelei

Obviously some will disagree....but if I were a Panther fan, Id love that.

The Panthers are actually one of my secondary teams along with the Chiefs, so Im hoping both of those teams can turn it around soon.


yeah that'd be nice and all (except for keeping rivera, the one thing we're doing). but... we can't afford bowe. rivera won't fire chud. and star is going to be a top 5 pick (we're picking 14th).

we're dead meat.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
But you are ignoring the catastrophic failure to execute in many of those games.

Look at the first Atlanta game. Rivera made the right call to ice the game. A designed run for Cam. Cam had the 1st down. It was clearly the right call. And the guy dove forward with the ball in one hand held 2 feet from his body. He fumbled it. Right call. Poor execution. And on the ensuing drive, the prevent was the right call. The prevent is meant to keep WRs from making those 50 yard catches. But what does Nakamura do? The safety let the receiver get behind him. And, to make matters worse, tries to recover by backpedalling.

You cant pin all that on the coach. All those losses could have been wins with better execution. Not falling when coming out of routes. Not missing field goals. Not dropping passes. Not throwing passes short/long/wide. Not comitting costly penalties.

Which, I am sure, will somehow all be laid on Rivera as well. Like, as in, "He's the coach. If theyre dropping passes, it's because he isnt teaching them to catch."


players can absolutely execute better. but sometimes rivera sets them up for failure in the first place.

he could have grown a pair and gone for it. he could have pulled haruki for sherrod (as he began to do after this embarrassment). or put gamble on roddy instead of julio so that norman wasn't just running along with them, staring. that's something a coach would do, right? situational playcalling. there's three different scenarios that could have put us in a position to win.

we were leading late in the game against the bears and what do we do? throw it! of course, this wound up being a pick six. then what INGENIOUS idea did we have for the next drive.... ? run the ball!!! it resulted in a field goal. if we did that in the first place, the bears are down 8 points with like no time left. situational playcalling.

we run a bootleg against the seahawks on the what, 2 yard line? why not give it to tolbert or cam? i mean... in that same position for the rest of the season, they combined for like 12 rush TDs. almost certainly would have given us a better chance to score. before you mention the throw, i'll point out that the play was supposed to be for greg olsen, but it became broken (gee, imagine that) and hartsock wound up being the open receiver. situational playcalling.


You are playing Monday Morning Quarterback, dude. "He shoulda done this. He shoulda done that."

Nothinjg you said was a bad decision until it didnt work.
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:

You are playing Monday Morning Quarterback, dude. "He shoulda done this. He shoulda done that."

Nothinjg you said was a bad decision until it didnt work.


not really. i mean, the prevent never works. i expect my team to try to do things that work. instead, we... don't.

i expect the panthers to run the ball with their billion dollar backfield on the goalline (or any short yard situation). it makes sense. it has an incredibly high chance of working, as we've seen over the past two years.

when my team is winning late in the game, i expect them to run the ball and do high percentage throws. not timing based routes that need quick breaks on a field that is notorious for being putrid.

winning a football game isn't hard. do things that work. do not do things that don't work. its as simple as that. ron rivera opts to do things that don't make sense, which is why he shouldn't have a job right now. beating matt leinart, the worst defense ever, and two teams with lame duck coaches in another meaningless december doesn't impress me.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
not really. i mean, the prevent never works. i expect my team to try to do things that work. instead, we... don't.


The prevent doesnt work. Which is why every coach in the NFL uses it. Right? You have this whole defense thing figured out. Theyre all wrong, you are right. Right?

Again, the prevent defense want a bad call. It was bad execution. It BECAME a bad call when it didnt work. Classic monday morning QB.

Quote:
i expect the panthers to run the ball with their billion dollar backfield on the goalline (or any short yard situation). it makes sense. it has an incredibly high chance of working, as we've seen over the past two years.


So does every defensive coordinator in the NFL.

Quote:
when my team is winning late in the game, i expect them to run the ball and do high percentage throws. not timing based routes that need quick breaks on a field that is notorious for being putrid.


Yes, because we couldnt complete a timing based route all game, right? Monday Morning QB at its finest.

Many of those high percentage throws are high percentage throws because theyre timing routes. Name a high percentage throw that isnt. You want us throwing 1 yard quick outs?

Quote:
winning a football game isn't hard. do things that work. do not do things that don't work. its as simple as that. ron rivera opts to do things that don't make sense, which is why he shouldn't have a job right now. beating matt leinart, the worst defense ever, and two teams with lame duck coaches in another meaningless december doesn't impress me.


Winning football games is hard. Its very hard. I question the merits of even discussing this further with you if you think its such an incredibly simple process.
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:

The prevent doesnt work. Which is why every coach in the NFL uses it. Right? You have this whole defense thing figured out. Theyre all wrong, you are right. Right?

Again, the prevent defense want a bad call. It was bad execution. It BECAME a bad call when it didnt work. Classic monday morning QB.


and if you fail to execute it over and over and over (and over and...), you should probably stop doing it.

Quote:
So does every defensive coordinator in the NFL.


yet, they still can't stop us. Smile

Quote:
Yes, because we couldnt complete a timing based route all game, right? Monday Morning QB at its finest.

Many of those high percentage throws are high percentage throws because theyre timing routes. Name a high percentage throw that isnt. You want us throwing 1 yard quick outs?


sure. or we could just not throw at all. i mean, like i said, we should have been running in the first place.

Quote:

Winning football games is hard. Its very hard. I question the merits of even discussing this further with you if you think its such an incredibly simple process.


well you can go ahead and stop if you'd like. i'd rather not discuss panther football with someone who's content with mediocrity anyway.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
and if you fail to execute it over and over and over (and over and...), you should probably stop doing it.


But we didnt fail to execute the prevent over and over and over. So I dont know what your point is.

Quote:
yet, they still can't stop us. Smile


They could easily stop us if we remained one dimensional and didnt look to keep defenses honest and off balance by doing things they dont expect. Its a pretty basic concept. Surprised you can see how easy it is to win games, but that basic strategic concept seems to escape you.

Quote:
sure. or we could just not throw at all. i mean, like i said, we should have been running in the first place.


Because running 3 and outs the entire 4th quarter is going to win us a ton of games. Too bad you arent our coach.

Quote:
well you can go ahead and stop if you'd like. i'd rather not discuss panther football with someone who's content with mediocrity anyway.


Its not about being content with mediocrity. Its about not spazzing out because I cant get the instant gratification I want.
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billy hoyal


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:


you think JR will find a GM with a backbone... after he's already decided who the coach is for himself? LMFAO.

we're gonna get another yes man just like hurney.


I posted this on the Panther forum in response to those beating the "Fire Rivera" drum. It's pointed towards Panther fans mainly. Too lazy to type it all again.


What GM candidate has the resume' that should give him the right to choose a HC right away. All of these possible GM's are going to be given their first GM job. I'm sure that it's been made clear to Rivera that there has to be more improvement next year(9-7 at worst), or changes will be made. It's not like the GM won't be able to get rid of him if the season goes bad. I'd much rather have a rookie GM just focus on the roster and fixing cap issues and not have to build an entire staff while he could be evaluating players. He's going to have make enough tough choices with our own players, while finding FA's and draft pick's. The new GM isn't stuck with him forever. Rivera gets another year, which he deserves.

Rivera took over a 2-14 team, with a one-month off-season, and a rookie QB who 90% of this board(including you) wanted no part of. He went 6-10 and was in all but 2 games, with the 5th best offense in the league. Pretty good for a team that couldn't get a 1st down in 2010. Plus, he lost Beason, Davis, immediately. Otah fell apart. That's 3 pro-bowl caliber players that he didn't have on top off all the other problems. Only Davis has been back.

This year was frustrating. No doubt. Chud overplayed the "zone-read" portion of the offense in the 1st half, and it failed. Losing Kalil, and a rookie LG playing like a rookie(1 good play...2 bad ones) didn't help. Once he corrected his obvious mistake, everything got much better. Now Chud's only problem is some situational play-calling that can be easily corrected. Much easier than a whole new offensive system with no guarantee it would be any better. After watching what happened with the over-use of the zone-read plays in the first half, I can't believe that any of our fans want anything to do with Chip Kelly. And the DEF improved over the course of the entire season., to a top 10-15 level. Even with numerous injuries.

So what coach was gonna be an improvement? Enough of one that would justify getting rid of a coach who has shown improvement in both seasons, and has had only 17 months with this team. I understand if they just kept playing like they were in the first half of the season, but every area of the team played a very good second half of the season. Doesn't matter who they played. If they were good you would just say they weren't trying. Rivera has made mistakes, no doubt. But he's also done plenty of good.

Bottom-line, you don't fire a coach without knowing who the next coach is going to be. And I don't see anyone who would be a guaranteed improvement over Rivera and his entire staff. Especially considering the team would have to start over with completely different schemes on both sides of the ball. Giving Rivera another year was the right decision. Think back to the days following the 2011 draft. What sort of expectations did any of you have for the next 2 years. Keep in mind that most of you thought Cam was a mistake. Would 6-10 and 7-9 been a reasonable when he started. I have a hard time believing that there were many of you that thought this team could get to those records with a project QB coming off a 2-14 season. Judge Rivera by his entire body of work and where it started at.
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