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Wildcard GDT- Playoffs- CIN @ HOU
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LondonBengal


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 3270
Location: London, England, UK
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carson4MVP wrote:
What CLUTCH play have you seen down the stretch by Dalton?
You obviously didn't see the game. Let me decribe it for you then.

It was a typical close hard fought AFCN defensive battle on the road against 6-time world champs Pittsburgh. They need to win to qualify for the play-offs. Tied at 10 deep in the 4th. Nelson intercepts Roethlisburger. Dalton, with 14 secs left, throws a picture perfect out ball to AJ Green and we win 13-10 on the FG. CLUTCH.

Carson4MVP wrote:
He certainly did not do anything to help the team win against Pittsburgh.
Who threw that out pattern to AJ Green then, Shirley Temple ? To say Dalton "did not do anything to help the team win against Pittsburgh" is just plain wrong.

Carson4MVP wrote:
Leon Hall and our DEF and ST's beat Pitt.
No they didn't. They kept PIT to ten points. Dalton & AJ's play, and Browns kick on that final drive won it for us.

Carson4MVP wrote:
You cannot judge a QB's play just by the team record.
What ? Dan Marino is not judged by his failure to win a SB ? Trent Dilfer is not judged by his SB win ? Championships and SB's are won by all kinds of QB's with different strengths and weaknesses.

Carson4MVP wrote:
no QB in their right mind should spend 4-5 seconds throwing a 3 step drop.
that sounds like Steeler fans complaining about Roethlisburger hanging on to it too long. It isn't a question about a QB 'being in their right mind', its just about who's open and how his blocking holds up.

Carson4MVP wrote:
every play Dalton has he holds on to the ball a good 2 seconds after he should.
Absolute bollocks. Every play ????? Surely on every ball Dalton has completed, he hasn't; by definition; held on to it too long......

Carson4MVP wrote:
because I know it isn't happening for us with Dalton at QB.
Wow, thats confident. With that kind of foresight, you must work on the futures market up on Wall St. With all that predictive certainty presumably you had a bundle laid against us making b2b play-off spots then ?......
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LondonBengal


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 3270
Location: London, England, UK
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hokie wrote:
However, most of those 19 wins have came against awful teams. He doesn't have a good track record in games against teams that finished above .500.
You can only beat who's lined up opposite. Coming off a 4-12 season and picking 4th in 2011, we played a 4th place schedule. Next season we play the AFCE, NFCN and other #2 AFC teams, so getting to 10/11 wins next season will be even more difficult.

Hokie wrote:
The biggest game he's won to date was @ Pittsburgh a few weeks ago and that was much more due to the defense. He might have made a nice pass at the end of the game to set up the FG, but the defense won that game for the Bengals.
No the defence did not win it, the defence kept them to 10 points. That final last minute drive and the FG won the game.

Hokie wrote:
......he's nowhere near an upper-tier QB among current QBs. Could he develop into one? Sure. I hope he does and I hope I'm wrong. But after watching him for two years, I just don't think he's "got it".

from 'bengals.com'. "Dalton's first two seasons compare with the current reign of quarterbacks. Romo and Rodgers didn't begin playing until their third and fourth years, respectively, and Dalton (19 wins, 47 TD passes) has Rodgers beat (17-58) in victories and tied with Romo (19-55). Dalton has more TD passes than Tom Brady (46) and almost as many regular-season wins (20). Same with Joe Flacco (20-35) and Roethlisberger (22-34). He's got Drew Brees (10-28) beat in both".

Hokie wrote:
He has as bad of a case of 'happy feet' of any QB I've seen in recent years; he's scrambles for his life at the slightest hint of pressure. And I don't think he's a great decision maker; just seems to me like he doesn't check down unless it's 3rd and long.
Thats because the pocket has been getting crushed, six sacks in some games, and nobody has been open. He's been unable to step into his throws. Gruden has spoken of him getting rid of it quicker, and they'll coach him up some over the next six months. Andy is not dumb. he'll know what he has to do to improve.

All in all, its easy to overlook how pathetically this team performed in Palmers last years, its easy to overlook just how young this 'O' is, its easy to overlook what Dalton has done comparatively in two years, and its easy to overstate the importance of a guy with a 'big' arm.
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futbudds


Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 1602
Location: Neptune Beach Fl
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Ben doesn't have his worst game in three years against us dalton doesn't get the chance to throw one pass to 'win' the game. If our D doesn't hold the Texans to field goals all day long dalton doesn't get the chance at the deep ball that probably would've won the game. If it wasn't for our D those games would've been over at half time with the way Dalton was playing. Hopefully this experience will get him over the hump for big games next year. If Sanu was still in the lineup at the end of the year dalton might've had more confidence and had better hot routes against the blitzes.
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Carson4MVP


Joined: 30 Mar 2007
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Location: Hilliard
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. I give up. If you want to believe that Dalton is a good QB, go ahead and do so. If you want to think he is great, more power to you. I know good QB play when I see it and he is not good. Period. I am done going back and forth. We will have this conversation again next year about this time when we either A. Do not make the playoffs or B. Get smoked by NE, Denver, Baltimore, Pitt or Houston again in the first round. Then you can tell me how it wasn't Dalton's fault and it was the gravitational pull from the moon that was causing him to over throw or under throw 90% of his passes he throws downfield.
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theJ


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Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 18708
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carson4MVP wrote:
Ok. I give up. If you want to believe that Dalton is a good QB, go ahead and do so. If you want to think he is great, more power to you. I know good QB play when I see it and he is not good. Period. I am done going back and forth. We will have this conversation again next year about this time when we either A. Do not make the playoffs or B. Get smoked by NE, Denver, Baltimore, Pitt or Houston again in the first round. Then you can tell me how it wasn't Dalton's fault and it was the gravitational pull from the moon that was causing him to over throw or under throw 90% of his passes he throws downfield.

That has been known to have quite the affect during January... Laughing
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Hokie


Joined: 01 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
You can only beat who's lined up opposite. Coming off a 4-12 season and picking 4th in 2011, we played a 4th place schedule. Next season we play the AFCE, NFCN and other #2 AFC teams, so getting to 10/11 wins next season will be even more difficult.


Of course you can only beat who's on the schedule. I think I'm putting a great weight on the quality of wins for Dalton than you are, however.

LondonBengal wrote:
No the defence did not win it, the defence kept them to 10 points. That final last minute drive and the FG won the game


Really? The final last minute drive you're referring to was ONE pass. Dalton never even gets a chance to make that pass if not for Nelson making the pick. Brown doesn't get a chance to kick a game-winning FG if not for LEON HALL scoring a DEFENSIVE touchdown. I certainly respect your opinions, but I have no idea how any objective Bengal fan can watch that game and tell me the defense didn't win that game.

LondonBengal wrote:
from 'bengals.com'. "Dalton's first two seasons compare with the current reign of quarterbacks. Romo and Rodgers didn't begin playing until their third and fourth years, respectively, and Dalton (19 wins, 47 TD passes) has Rodgers beat (17-5Cool in victories and tied with Romo (19-55). Dalton has more TD passes than Tom Brady (46) and almost as many regular-season wins (20). Same with Joe Flacco (20-35) and Roethlisberger (22-34). He's got Drew Brees (10-2Cool beat in both".


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics". I think that applies here. You even said yourself he's not currently an upper-level QB.

LondonBengal wrote:
Thats because the pocket has been getting crushed, six sacks in some games, and nobody has been open. He's been unable to step into his throws. Gruden has spoken of him getting rid of it quicker, and they'll coach him up some over the next six months. Andy is not dumb. he'll know what he has to do to improve.


While the O-Line didn't perform well in the 2nd half of the season, I respectfully disagree that they and the receivers are to blame for Dalton's happy feet.

LondonBengal wrote:
All in all, its easy to overlook how pathetically this team performed in Palmers last years, its easy to overlook just how young this 'O' is, its easy to overlook what Dalton has done comparatively in two years, and its easy to overstate the importance of a guy with a 'big' arm.


I'm not overlooking anything. I wanted to see improvement from Dalton this season, and frankly, I didn't see it. As I've said, I hope he improves mightily next season and proves me wrong. He has too many flaws for me to think he'll ever be anything more than a very average NFL QB.
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LondonBengal


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

futbudds wrote:
If Ben doesn't have his worst game in three years against us dalton doesn't get the chance to throw one pass to 'win' the game. If our D doesn't hold the Texans to field goals all day long dalton doesn't get the chance at the deep ball that probably would've won the game. If it wasn't for our D those games would've been over at half time with the way Dalton was playing. Hopefully this experience will get him over the hump for big games next year. If Sanu was still in the lineup at the end of the year dalton might've had more confidence and had better hot routes against the blitzes.


Agree with and understand your points 'fb', I'm just a bit tired of folks wanting it both ways; dismissing Daltons play when we win and calling them 'team wins', but then when we lose, blaming Dalton for poor play, when clearly the whole wider team is involved.

Nobody, but nobody, could have dreamed of whay Dalton has delivered in his opening two years, yet some folks here with very short memories seem to want to throw him under the bus after just two seasons.

All the stats show that he's right up there with the best thru 2, he's improved in every category over last year, and I for one don't think he is getting enough credit.

He completes that last long ball to AJ in HOU last Saturday and were all kissing his a$$.
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LondonBengal


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
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Location: London, England, UK
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hokie wrote:
I wanted to see improvement from Dalton this season, and frankly, I didn't see it.


You didn't see improvement ?

2011/2012

WINS - 9 / 10
TD'S - 20 / 27
COMPLETIONS - 300 / 329
PASS YDS - 3398 / 3669
QBR - 80.4 / 87.4

Hokie wrote:
He has too many flaws for me to think he'll ever be anything more than a very average NFL QB.


Too many flaws ? Jeez, all the guy does is win games.

I guess we both hope you're wrong next year.
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carson4MVP wrote:
Ok. I give up. If you want to believe that Dalton is a good QB, go ahead and do so. If you want to think he is great, more power to you. I know good QB play when I see it and he is not good.
I have no better idea than you as to whether or not Dalton is going to be a 'great QB'. Time will tell. He might get injured like CP and we'll never know.
All I'm saying is that his performance and stats over his first 2 seasons are impressive. They are there for all to see and argue about, and they compare very well over the first 2 seasons with the best. He aint there yet, but the numbers are undeniable facts. You can ignore the numbers if you wish, but they are there nonetheless.

Carson4MVP wrote:
We will have this conversation again next year about this time when we either A. Do not make the playoffs or B. Get smoked by NE, Denver, Baltimore, Pitt or Houston again in the first round.
You obviously have a skill that I dont. Unlike you it seems, I have no idea how next season is going to pan out. I also have no particular flame to burn for Dalton, if he fails to perform at a decent level, then we trade or cut him and move on, and the time to do that is evidently after next season when the Bengals have the chance to extend his contract or not.

I just think some of your comments in recent posts have been just plain factually wrong and unfair to a guy who primarily more than anything has delivered results.

Carson4MVP wrote:
Then you can tell me how it wasn't Dalton's fault and it was the gravitational pull from the moon that was causing him to over throw or under throw 90% of his passes he throws downfield.

Are you really suggesting Dalton only completes 10% of his passes, or is my sarchasm monitor not switched on again ?

The truth is, neither of us knows how Dalton is going to work out. Lets leave it at that.......
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Carson4MVP


Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 1681
Location: Hilliard
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
Carson4MVP wrote:
Ok. I give up. If you want to believe that Dalton is a good QB, go ahead and do so. If you want to think he is great, more power to you. I know good QB play when I see it and he is not good.
I have no better idea than you as to whether or not Dalton is going to be a 'great QB'. Time will tell. He might get injured like CP and we'll never know.
All I'm saying is that his performance and stats over his first 2 seasons are impressive. They are there for all to see and argue about, and they compare very well over the first 2 seasons with the best. He aint there yet, but the numbers are undeniable facts. You can ignore the numbers if you wish, but they are there nonetheless.

Carson4MVP wrote:
We will have this conversation again next year about this time when we either A. Do not make the playoffs or B. Get smoked by NE, Denver, Baltimore, Pitt or Houston again in the first round.
You obviously have a skill that I dont. Unlike you it seems, I have no idea how next season is going to pan out. I also have no particular flame to burn for Dalton, if he fails to perform at a decent level, then we trade or cut him and move on, and the time to do that is evidently after next season when the Bengals have the chance to extend his contract or not.

I just think some of your comments in recent posts have been just plain factually wrong and unfair to a guy who primarily more than anything has delivered results.

Carson4MVP wrote:
Then you can tell me how it wasn't Dalton's fault and it was the gravitational pull from the moon that was causing him to over throw or under throw 90% of his passes he throws downfield.

Are you really suggesting Dalton only completes 10% of his passes, or is my sarchasm monitor not switched on again ?

The truth is, neither of us knows how Dalton is going to work out. Lets leave it at that.......


I'm not suggesting that he only completes 10% of his passes. Under thrown passes can be and were completed a lot actually. It is sad when the teams best throw of the season was made by a WR. When I say 'downfield' pass I'm not referring to a 7 yard out or screen pass. I'm talking about throws 20+ yds downfield. I think anyone hear can see how inaccurate Dalton is for these throws. If not for AJ Green Dalton would be much worse. Daunte Culpepper looked pretty good throwing to Moss to right?
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