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johndeere1707


Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 5985
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
johndeere1707 wrote:
London it has more to do with our team than Dalton leading us to the playoffs in back to back years. I'm sorry, if you watch the game it's obvious the guy just isn't very good. There are other factors but Dalton just doesn't have the tools to be very good. He will always be middle of the pack due to Green.


It completely depends upon what degree you place wins and losses on a QB, or say its a 'team game' and blame the team in its entireity. You cant have it both ways.

To say he doesn't 'have the tools' is strange given that Dalton as a QB has just had two of the most succesful years in Bengal history. That would suggest he does have some 'tools'. Is that success down to Dalton or good team play ? Obviously, good team play over the season, but the focus is on the QB.

To say 'he will always be middle of the pack due to Green' is just completely plain wrong IMO. Dalton and Green have put up the 2nd most succesful opening two seasons since Marino+Clayton. How do you explain that outcome if he 'doesn't have the tools' ?

Matt Stafford evidently 'has the tools', but where did a big arm and 5000 yards get the 4-12 Lions this year ? Arguably, the best QB of all time; Joe Montana'; didn't 'have the tools', but had a great receiver, and a good offensive scheme wrapped around him.

Just think back to after when Palmer quit, and we take Green and Dalton in the draft. If you'd have known then, we'd go 19-15 with b2b play-off berths, you'd have taken that in a heartbeat, right ?. Despite the b2b 1st round play-off losses to HOU, this young team continues to improve, and will do so again next year. Dalton is 19-15 as Bengal QB, and has just been a 'winner' all his life.

The team played badly Saturday including Dalton, but I just believe we should stick with Dalton and get better players around him. Others here want to ditch Dalton, and go for another 'Palmeresque' gun-slinger; (Ryan Mallett, Tony Romo etc); to throw it to Green 25 times a game like Calvin Johnson. We've discussed it here before, that formula will not win you many games.

I just believe we should continue to develop Dalton and gang from what we have, rather than clean house and start agian. It will of course ultimately completely depend on how the Bengal coaches and FO sees things, and IMO they'll stick with Dalton, and maybe give him a new contract.

I really don't agree with you 'JD', I think getting to the play-offs in consecutive years does matter immensely to a club that hasn't been there too often in recent decades ............

The next step is obviously to get deeper into the play-offs.


ok... but look at this from an outside point of view. I think you can agree this team is very talented from top to bottom. We have pieces in place. Andy just is never going to be that QB that wins you games with his arm. I agree that if you put more talent around him then yeah, he is going to be better. But when you watch him play, he leaves so many plays on the field. Overshooting AJ Green consistently this year, even with throws to receivers he never really leads them, its usually a somewhat difficult catch. Obviously Gresham dropped a lot of catchable balls this year, but a lot of the time its due to Dalton making what should be an easy catch, a difficult one. His pocket presense is atrocious and he locks onto 1 person then freaks out when they are covered.

Its not just him though, when we have "big primetime games" our whole team freezes, including our coaching staff. I am happy we made it to the playoffs 2 years in a row, but its just straight embarrassing to see a performance like that 2 years in a row. The Texans should not have won that game if we had any offense to speak of. It wasn't them shutting us down as much it was us shooting ourselves in the foot. I really hope they bring in a new Center next year or let Robinson take over. We need a receiver that catches everything like we had in Shipley. If he would have remained healthy I think we could have gone farther. Hopefully Sanu is that guy going forward. I guess Im still a bit heated on a disappointing game, but hey, maybe next year right?
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LondonBengal


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 3275
Location: London, England, UK
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theJ wrote:
johndeere1707 wrote:
London it has more to do with our team than Dalton leading us to the playoffs in back to back years. I'm sorry, if you watch the game it's obvious the guy just isn't very good. There are other factors but Dalton just doesn't have the tools to be very good. He will always be middle of the pack due to Green.

Well that's just not true. When given time, he delivers a good accurate ball. When rushed, that's when he looks bad.

I may be an optimist here, but i think that's correctable. Spend all offseason doing drills that simulate throws under pressure. Get him used to it so when the DT is pushing Kyle Cook into his face he throws the checkdown instead of curling into a ball.

We've seen games where the Oline looks spectacular, and it's no coincidence that Dalton looks good in those games. He threw 27 TD's this year.

Anyway, he's going to play out his contract at the very least. So dig in and hope he gets better.


Agree with this summary 'J'.

Right now, our aim for next year has to be 11-5, win the division, get a home play-off game, and get deeper into the play-offs.

IMO, our best bet for achieving this, is to give Dalton targetted coaching this off-season on his weaknesses, and like Mayock said, this includes getting him throwing quicker reads off 3-step drops. Thats apart from improving the whole offence of course.
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Delbert


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Posts: 532
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd rather have Dalton as our quarterback over the following starters: Hence, Sanchez, Locker, Ponder, Palmer, Schaub, Kaepernick, whoever Arizona has that week, Foles, Weeden, Romo, Bradford and others. He is unlikely to ever be elite, but he's good enough when we have more pressing needs. The Ravens won a Superbowl with Trent Dilfer, and if my memory serves me well, I believe there have been quite a few other quarterbacks who weren't great that won rings.

I would prefer getting a good center, a new safety opposite Nelson, and a running back that would make defenses respect the run game more over worrying about our QB. That said, Dalton needs to improve, but he's not yet in the prime of his career. Give him a year or two and if he doesn't show he has the skills, we can replace him then.

Also, we need someone new to coach the tight ends to catch better because they're not doing a good job with Gresham.
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LondonBengal


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
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Location: London, England, UK
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johndeere1707 wrote:
ok... but look at this from an outside point of view. I think you can agree this team is very talented from top to bottom. We have pieces in place. Andy just is never going to be that QB that wins you games with his arm.
Agree that we have decent team, maybe a few players overrated, but yes, a decent 'core' of players. No,don't agree, Dalton can and has won games with his passing, and will continue to do so.

johndeere1707 wrote:
.....he leaves so many plays on the field. Overshooting AJ Green consistently this year, even with throws to receivers he never really leads them, its usually a somewhat difficult catch. Obviously Gresham dropped a lot of catchable balls this year, but a lot of the time its due to Dalton making what should be an easy catch, a difficult one. His pocket presense is atrocious and he locks onto 1 person then freaks out when they are covered.
Dalton looks pretty accurate to me, and the Bengals coaches say so. Like every QB under pressure in a collapsing pocket, he's less accurate. I don't know how much of it is route running, and how much is Dalton. I do know on that last long ball to AJ v HOU that Andy is criticised for overthrowing, AJ got jammed at the line, and still nearly got the grab.

johndeere1707 wrote:
Obviously Gresham dropped a lot of catchable balls this year, but a lot of the time its due to Dalton making what should be an easy catch, a difficult one. His pocket presense is atrocious and he locks onto 1 person then freaks out when they are covered.
Yup; 3rd down conversion rates have been pretty bad all year, and is the one pivotal reason we lost in HOU. I don't think I've ever seen Dalton 'freak-out'. He looks pretty cool and organised back there whatever the situation; its one of his strengths.

johndeere1707 wrote:
Its not just him though, when we have "big primetime games" our whole team freezes, including our coaching staff. I am happy we made it to the playoffs 2 years in a row, but its just straight embarrassing to see a performance like that 2 years in a row. The Texans should not have won that game if we had any offense to speak of
Yes they should, and did deserve to win. They won the battle of both trenches. It was amazing that we still had a chance to win it in the 4th with that long ball to AJ.

johndeere1707 wrote:
I really hope they bring in a new Center next year or let Robinson take over.
I agree on a new C; Boling maybe ? I'm not sure about Robinson, he played OK, but got run out of town against Casey Hampton.

johndeere1707 wrote:
We need a receiver that catches everything like we had in Shipley. If he would have remained healthy I think we could have gone farther. Hopefully Sanu is that guy going forward.
Marvin Jones flashed; Sanu is a slot guy IMO along with Hawkins, but yeah we need to take some heat off AJ somehow.

johndeere1707 wrote:
I guess Im still a bit heated on a disappointing game, but hey, maybe next year right?
I'm with you there bro ! There's always next year........
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amazingandre


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 13986
Location: Elkhorn, WI
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great game, it was a nail biter. You have some really nice weapons, you are dangerous, your young qb will get better in the spot light as he matures.

I love me some green and BGE, they helped me a lot in fantasy this season.
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Carson4MVP


Joined: 30 Mar 2007
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Location: Hilliard
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
The offense as a whole didnt struggle, just dalton and gresham. the line killed it for BJGE, and dalton had plenty of time to throw on most plays.


I am with you NBT. I would say at least 30-40% of the sacks that Dalton takes, are his own fault. No QB in the league can hold the ball more than 4 seconds and not expect the line to break down. Dalton just doesn't get it. It is funny how every website has the Bengals o-line listed as top 6-7 in the league, but they just choose not to block for Dalton apparently.
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Carson4MVP


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
Carson4MVP wrote:
Cowboys fans are down on Romo, but he has more talent in his non-throwing pinky than Andy Dalton does in his entire body. I would GLADLY take Romo over Dalton. Give Romo this defense and AJ to throw to and you have a top 2-3 team in the league.

How anyone can watch Dalton play against Pitt, Balt, Denver, Houston, hell even Cleveland and not see it is lying to themselves.


As you know, there is alot more to wining a game than the QB; guys have to block, get open, and catch for the QB.

Romo might have all that skill in his pinky you and 'NBT' talk about, but just remind me; how many times have Dalton and Romo taken their teams to the play-offs the last two seasons ?


But you cannot compare how 2 different teams do. The Bengals make the playoffs despite Dalton, not because of him. You put Tony on THIS Bengals team and we are an instant SB contender. Guaranteed. Look at the Cowboys vs Steelers and how he played against the very same defense that we couldn't score against a week later. I know you say that all QB's struggle against good defenses, but he torched them. I would argue this Bengals team has more offensive skill than Dallas does, but yet we couldn't get the ball in the end zone if not for Leon Hall.
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LondonBengal


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carson4MVP wrote:
But you cannot compare how 2 different teams do. The Bengals make the playoffs despite Dalton, not because of him. You put Tony on THIS Bengals team and we are an instant SB contender. Guaranteed.
Just don't agree with this.

You say that 'you cannot compare how 2 different teams do'; but then you say there will be 'guarenteed' success as a SB contender if we go get Romo.

Romo has continually failed to succeed in Dallas, surrounded by a pretty good team, and certainly a team on a par with the Bengals. In seven seasons, Romo has got DAL to the play-offs 3 times, and won just one play-off game. I don't think you'll find many Cowboy fans that would describe Romo as 'succesful'. Neither you or anyone else can 'guarentee' success in the NFL, and there is zero evidence that Romo would bring 'guarenteed' success to CIN. Thats plain nonsense IMO.

Carson4MVP wrote:
I would argue this Bengals team has more offensive skill than Dallas does, but yet we couldn't get the ball in the end zone if not for Leon Hall.
You're arguing with yourself here. How can you say that this Bengal team has 'more offensive skill' than DAL, then point out that we couldn't score v HOU.

Lets line 'em up; who's better ? (I've highlighted the guy who IMO is questionably 'better', (whatever 'better' means).

QB1-DALTON v ROMO
QB2-GRAD v ORTON
RB1-BJGE v MURRAY
RB2-PEERMAN v F.JONES
FB-PRESSLEY v VICKERS
LT-WHITWORTH v T.SMITH
LG-BOLING v LIVINGS
C-K.COOK v R.COOK
RG-ZEITLER v BERNADEAU
RT-A.SMITH v FREE
TE1-GRESHAM v WITTEN
TE2-CHARLES v PHILLIPS
WR1-GREEN v BRYANT
WR2-JONES v AUSTIN
WR3-HAWKINS v OGLETREE

I wouldn't say necessarily CIN has 'more skill' than DAL, looks pretty even across the teams to me.

I think I know who has the better TE though !!!!!

Trading with DAL for Romo is a bad idea IMO
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LondonBengal


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delbert wrote:
I'd rather have Dalton as our quarterback over the following starters: Hence, Sanchez, Locker, Ponder, Palmer, Schaub, Kaepernick, whoever Arizona has that week, Foles, Weeden, Romo, Bradford and others. He is unlikely to ever be elite, but he's good enough when we have more pressing needs. The Ravens won a Superbowl with Trent Dilfer, and if my memory serves me well, I believe there have been quite a few other quarterbacks who weren't great that won rings.

I would prefer getting a good center, a new safety opposite Nelson, and a running back that would make defenses respect the run game more over worrying about our QB. That said, Dalton needs to improve, but he's not yet in the prime of his career. Give him a year or two and if he doesn't show he has the skills, we can replace him then.

Also, we need someone new to coach the tight ends to catch better because they're not doing a good job with Gresham.


Nice post Delbert, completely agree.
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INbengalfan


Joined: 21 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't agree with all of that. The TE coach can't coach intelligence and heart into Gresham. Gresham seems to be another athlete who got by on talent alone for so long, but when the talent field is leveled, doesn't have the heart or will to get better.

I agree though on a new center or getting Robinson bigger. i could see keeping Wharton and sliding Boling into C as well.
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RedGreenShow


Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets not forget how young and unexperienced this team is. How often do we get to play in the spotlight? I can't believe everyone is ready to just toss Dalton on the street before he hits his prime. Our O-Line let Watt and company in his face all game, of course he's going to pull the ball down. Dalton isn't the problem, IMO at least. It's the run game. Lets be real here, is BJGE any cause for concern in the backfield? Even if there is a gaping hole, he's not gonna burst anything longer than 20+ yards. We need an elite, explosive back. Someone who the defense has to account for all game. As of right now, theres too much pressure on a young group of guys. Everyone is just heated at the moment because we got embarrassed again, but dont right off this young nucleus of guys yet.
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[quote="YoursTruly"]He doesn't get the ball because he is shut down. Zero seperation. It is my understanding that Elite WR should be able to do this when their number is called. AJ gets shut down relatively easy.[/quote]
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TheVillain112


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RedGreenShow wrote:
I can't believe everyone is ready to just toss Dalton on the street before he hits his prime.


I definitely don't want to get rid of Dalton. He just played like crap and needs to improve. I think he can get there, he just showed he's not there yet.

Mualuga is the guy who I want to toss on the street...
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johndeere1707


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheVillain112 wrote:
RedGreenShow wrote:
I can't believe everyone is ready to just toss Dalton on the street before he hits his prime.


I definitely don't want to get rid of Dalton. He just played like crap and needs to improve. I think he can get there, he just showed he's not there yet.

Mualuga is the guy who I want to toss on the street...


I never said get rid of Dalton. I just said I think he will never be that great
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theJ


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johndeere1707 wrote:
TheVillain112 wrote:
RedGreenShow wrote:
I can't believe everyone is ready to just toss Dalton on the street before he hits his prime.


I definitely don't want to get rid of Dalton. He just played like crap and needs to improve. I think he can get there, he just showed he's not there yet.

Mualuga is the guy who I want to toss on the street...


I never said get rid of Dalton. I just said I think he will never be that great

I wouldn't rule it out. For all the bad moments he had this year, he still had a number of good ones. Threw 27 TD's for heavens sake. That's pretty good. He was remarkably better in 2012 than in 2011.

Like i said before, i think he needs to work on throwing under pressure. He has the accuracy and arm strength to succeed. Stealing from another thread:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=509445&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Andy Dalton
When Blitzed- 1,153 Yards (7.5 Y/A), 55.2% Completions, 11 TDs, 7 INTs, 84.2 QB Rating (Sacked 19 times)
Under Pressure- 193 Yards (4.2 Y/A), 28.3% Completions, 4 TDs, 8 INTs, 15.6 QB Rating (Sacked 44 times)
(Under Pressure on 15.8% of Dropbacks, Sacked 46.8% of the time he's Under Pressure)

I'd like to see him bring both of those categories up. Say to 60% and 35% completion %. If that happens, you'll see a snowball of effects. More third down conversions. More attempts. More yards. More TD's.

It's doable. I think he will improve in year 3 because he cares about his performance. Will he ever be great? I dunno. Chances are no. But it usually takes more than 2-3 years for a QB to get there. Most require 5+ years before they start to put up elite numbers.
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johndeere1707 wrote:
he will never be that great


I dunno, maybe I'm getting too long in the tooth, but I think he's pretty close to being great now, considering what he's achieved in his first 2 years, and remembering what a basket case this team was after Palmer quit.

After we drafted Dalton and Green, many learned commentators had us going 0-16 last year, so to put up 19-15 and b2b play-off seasons, including a clutch win in PIT when it mattered, is a fantastic achievement. Many guys slump in their 2nd year, as opposing coaches watch them closer, but Dalton has improved over last year.

Is Dalton perfect; hell no, is there plenty to work on; sure, but he just doesn't get enough credit for the job he's done in those 2 years.

Just my view.
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