Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Would you be okay with Pryor going forward?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 34, 35, 36  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Oakland Raiders
View previous topic :: View next topic  

What would you like Oakland to do at QB next season?
Start Palmer, develop Pryor
56%
 56%  [ 37 ]
Start Pryor, Carson mentor
18%
 18%  [ 12 ]
Start Palmer, cut Pryor, get a new QBOTF
7%
 7%  [ 5 ]
Start Pryor, draft QBOTF
7%
 7%  [ 5 ]
Other
9%
 9%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 65

Author Message
ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5360
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:

A total misconception about Chip Kelly is that his offense is just about being fast

He didn't have mostly Qbs running 4.3 40s or running backs with Chris Johnson speed.

That's not why his offense was successful

It was successful because it creates confusion, uncertainty, overreactions at the LOS

It creates overloads of blocking, it foces defenses to be balanced and forces them to pay for being unbalanced.

It has moves and counter moves and then some against a defensive approach and it punishes defenses with constraint plays

You need to watch the tutorial on Chip Kelly's offense. There are so many misconceptions about what made that offense successful

It wasn't just "hey look we are faster than everybody so any play will work"

The plays through misdirection through putting defenders in no man's lane, again through simple math and geometry defenses are at a disadvantage



It is not just about being fast, but speed is what made the offense as dangerous as it was. Kelly is a very smart and creative coach, so I will not give the players speed take all the credit, but his offense was very much based on speed. James, Barner, and DAT are/were amongst the fastest RBs in the country and Mariota is one of the fastest QBs as well. He adapts his offense to suit his personnel (Blount and Marshall werent fast) but for the most part he recruited really fast players because those are the guys that thrive in his system.

What's funny is that you say a misconception about Chip's offense is that it needs fast players, yet there have been several instances where you say he needs a fast QB and I have replied to you saying that he does not. That is a major misconception. He always has and always will alter his scheme and gameplan to suit the best players on his team. There's a reason you rarely saw Darron Thomas run option plays or have a designed run. Same reason you didn't see Masoli passing very much. Chip recognizes no players are alike and they can't all be forced into one concrete scheme.
_________________


Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 14746
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

you guys forget how important a qb who protects the ball is to the defense. ever wonder how in cp's 2 playoff years 05' and 09' he had 16 turnovers in both years. other years he had 20, 26, 24, 23 turnovers per year. qb play greatly influences wins and losses.


And defensive play greatly influences QB play. QBs playing catchup have to deal with defenses who know they have to pass. Once the run is abandoned, the defense can rush at will. Thats a major reason you see QBs throw a lot of picks when down by a lot.


http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/7/6/2262458/carson-palmers-interceptions-responsible-for-16-7-of-total-points

before you go blaming the defense read that ^

then check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOhiAL3N1zU


I never said his picks had nothing to do with the defense giving up points, either. But just for arguments sake, aside from the pick 6's it is still the defense's job to keep the other team out of the endzone. Now, dont get me wrong, it would be totally unreasonable of me to say, "hey, Palmer threw a pick and they returned it to Cincy's 10" and expect the D to keep them out every time, but turnovers happen, great punt returns happen, good starting field position happens. Whether it comes from an INT, fumble, good return, blocked punt, or an unsuccessful 4th down conversion, the defense has still got to do it's job. Now, at a certain point it does start to affect the D, and if they are defending a 40 yard field every time they take the field then it will undoubtedly affect them and then you cant put all the blame on them. But see, it goes both ways.

On the flip side, I wouldnt blame only the defense if the offense gets to start 40 yards away from the endzone due to a turnover. Its not black and white, you have to look at both parts and the amount of blame can and will vary in each situation. If the QB throws a pick and it gets returned to the 50, how is that any different from punting from your own 10 (from a defensive standpoint)? I in no way am saying picks are cool because they are like punts, I'm just saying a defense has to defend the field regardless. IMO, if you can blame just the QB for not scoring in the redzone, then you should also blame just the defense for not holding the offense to a FG in the redzone.


sure turnovers happen but when you have a td:int ratio track record like cp you think maybe its not the 10+ wr's and te's, countless coaches etc etc and maybe its cp.


For the most part, palmer is responsible for his picks and incompletions, but to say all their losing is on him is flat out wrong.

You asked if it was a coincidence that the two years Palmer had his lowest INT total were also the only years they went to the playoffs. Well I ask you this: is it also a coincidence that those playoff seasons included the only season they allowed under 21 PPG (2009) and the season they led the NFL in takeways (2005)? Everyone loves to say "defense wins championships", but when his defenses were average at best he still gets the blame. Again, it comes down to the argument of resting W/L on a QB rather than the team as a whole. Palmer deserves the blame for what he does, but a win or a loss is dependant on 20+ other players. You can throw for 400 yards and 4 TDs with no picks, but if your defense gives up 5 TDs you will lose. Why should the QB get "credited" with that loss. Likewise, a QB can do little-to-nothing but his D shuts the other team out and his RB balls out of control. Why should the QB get credit for the win? Same goes for Palmer. He isnt an elite comeback artist, but to say his w/l record is all on him is inaccurate.

And if it was all about his interceptions, then what happened this year? He only had 14 (a totally respectable number), but the defense gave up 28 PPG. Who sgould get the blame in this instance? What about in 2006? He only threw 13, and his defense was decent, and his run game was pretty good- but they still didnt make the playoffs. Who is to blame there? The answer is everyone.

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

as you see in the video most of cps ints happen when the score is tied or they are winning. not him trying to play catch up


Nope. The majority of his interceptions have come while playing from behind- 69/130 according to NFL.com.


-you dont think cp's pick 6's factor into the defenses ppg?
thats why i gave you the link to the article showing how cp's turnovers are somewhat responsible for the defenses ppg.

-got link for nfl.com info?

-i said:
Quote:
ever wonder how in cp's 2 playoff years 05' and 09' he had 16 turnovers in both years. other years he had 20, 26, 24, 23 turnovers per year.


-this year he had 19 t.o's 14 ints 5 fumbles but missed 2 games
-in 06 he had 26 t.o.'s 13 ints 13 fumbles


In 2006 he only lost 7 fumbles (still not a great number lol, but about half of what you said).

He obviously gets full blame for the pick-6s, but the other picks? IDK, that article doesnt show you the starting field position after all of his picks, and that piece of info matters. That article says he is somewhat responsible forthe defenses PPG, but the same is true for all QBs, unless of course not a single one of their turnovers have never led to points. All QBs turn the ball over. Its not like Palmer turns the ball over twice as much as your average QB. Turnovers are part of the game. The only difference is we don't have a good enough D to survive them- not just the 19 Palmer gave us, but we probably couldn't afford 12 turnovers, and that's a crazy low number we wouldn't get from any other QB. We also dont have a good enou offense to come back and score more. That is on Palmer, but also the other 10 guys and the OC. Jay Cutler turns the ball over just about as much as Palmer, but his D still hovers around the top-5 each year. Big Ben has several seasons with 15+ turnovers, and even some over 20, but he also has an elite D and they still top the ranks each year. In 09 Mark Sanchez had 23 turnovers but the Jets D still ranked #1.

Again, not saying Palmer deserves no blame, but the defense has still got to do its job. That article doesn't say what the starting field position was after every one of his picks. If they returned it into the redzone, then yea Palmer should shoulder a lot of the blame. But if they get the ball and the D lets them march 50+ yards, then I blame Palmer for turning it over, but I blame the D for letting them into the endzone.

As for the NFL.com I don't have a link, I just looked at his situational stats. It breaks it down each year for all stats while behind, tied, and in the lead.


-i thought we were just talking about cp and the bengals but you have some valid points. fwiw cutler and sanchez are scrubs who depend on their stud defenses. are you saying that cp is a scrub who needs to depend on his defense? pitt has def but ben is clutch and has the rings to prove it.

-palmer does turn the ball over a lot more than your average qb. he led the nfl in ints in 07', 3rd in 10', 4th in 04', 7th 11'. he also makes more than the average player.

-palmer did have a running game. rudi 04',05',06' never went under 1300yrds and 10 tds. not to mention benson 09', 10' going over 1k. so lets put that to rest

-cinci's defense was nothing to brag about but was better than ours over that time span including a top 5 defense in 09'.

-i noticed how you picked the best defenses maybe more of a exception

-my bad it was 13 fumbles period in 06'

-you typed a lot ill have to revisit the rest in the am when im not so bourbonated Cool
_________________


green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101


Last edited by NCOUGHMAN on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:35 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dmac505


Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 747
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

you guys forget how important a qb who protects the ball is to the defense. ever wonder how in cp's 2 playoff years 05' and 09' he had 16 turnovers in both years. other years he had 20, 26, 24, 23 turnovers per year. qb play greatly influences wins and losses.


And defensive play greatly influences QB play. QBs playing catchup have to deal with defenses who know they have to pass. Once the run is abandoned, the defense can rush at will. Thats a major reason you see QBs throw a lot of picks when down by a lot.


http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/7/6/2262458/carson-palmers-interceptions-responsible-for-16-7-of-total-points

before you go blaming the defense read that ^

then check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOhiAL3N1zU


I never said his picks had nothing to do with the defense giving up points, either. But just for arguments sake, aside from the pick 6's it is still the defense's job to keep the other team out of the endzone. Now, dont get me wrong, it would be totally unreasonable of me to say, "hey, Palmer threw a pick and they returned it to Cincy's 10" and expect the D to keep them out every time, but turnovers happen, great punt returns happen, good starting field position happens. Whether it comes from an INT, fumble, good return, blocked punt, or an unsuccessful 4th down conversion, the defense has still got to do it's job. Now, at a certain point it does start to affect the D, and if they are defending a 40 yard field every time they take the field then it will undoubtedly affect them and then you cant put all the blame on them. But see, it goes both ways.

On the flip side, I wouldnt blame only the defense if the offense gets to start 40 yards away from the endzone due to a turnover. Its not black and white, you have to look at both parts and the amount of blame can and will vary in each situation. If the QB throws a pick and it gets returned to the 50, how is that any different from punting from your own 10 (from a defensive standpoint)? I in no way am saying picks are cool because they are like punts, I'm just saying a defense has to defend the field regardless. IMO, if you can blame just the QB for not scoring in the redzone, then you should also blame just the defense for not holding the offense to a FG in the redzone.


sure turnovers happen but when you have a td:int ratio track record like cp you think maybe its not the 10+ wr's and te's, countless coaches etc etc and maybe its cp.


For the most part, palmer is responsible for his picks and incompletions, but to say all their losing is on him is flat out wrong.

You asked if it was a coincidence that the two years Palmer had his lowest INT total were also the only years they went to the playoffs. Well I ask you this: is it also a coincidence that those playoff seasons included the only season they allowed under 21 PPG (2009) and the season they led the NFL in takeways (2005)? Everyone loves to say "defense wins championships", but when his defenses were average at best he still gets the blame. Again, it comes down to the argument of resting W/L on a QB rather than the team as a whole. Palmer deserves the blame for what he does, but a win or a loss is dependant on 20+ other players. You can throw for 400 yards and 4 TDs with no picks, but if your defense gives up 5 TDs you will lose. Why should the QB get "credited" with that loss. Likewise, a QB can do little-to-nothing but his D shuts the other team out and his RB balls out of control. Why should the QB get credit for the win? Same goes for Palmer. He isnt an elite comeback artist, but to say his w/l record is all on him is inaccurate.

And if it was all about his interceptions, then what happened this year? He only had 14 (a totally respectable number), but the defense gave up 28 PPG. Who sgould get the blame in this instance? What about in 2006? He only threw 13, and his defense was decent, and his run game was pretty good- but they still didnt make the playoffs. Who is to blame there? The answer is everyone.

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

as you see in the video most of cps ints happen when the score is tied or they are winning. not him trying to play catch up


Nope. The majority of his interceptions have come while playing from behind- 69/130 according to NFL.com.


-you dont think cp's pick 6's factor into the defenses ppg?
thats why i gave you the link to the article showing how cp's turnovers are somewhat responsible for the defenses ppg.

-got link for nfl.com info?

-i said:
Quote:
ever wonder how in cp's 2 playoff years 05' and 09' he had 16 turnovers in both years. other years he had 20, 26, 24, 23 turnovers per year.


-this year he had 19 t.o's 14 ints 5 fumbles but missed 2 games
-in 06 he had 26 t.o.'s 13 ints 13 fumbles


In 2006 he only lost 7 fumbles (still not a great number lol, but about half of what you said).

He obviously gets full blame for the pick-6s, but the other picks? IDK, that article doesnt show you the starting field position after all of his picks, and that piece of info matters. That article says he is somewhat responsible forthe defenses PPG, but the same is true for all QBs, unless of course not a single one of their turnovers have never led to points. All QBs turn the ball over. Its not like Palmer turns the ball over twice as much as your average QB. Turnovers are part of the game. The only difference is we don't have a good enough D to survive them- not just the 19 Palmer gave us, but we probably couldn't afford 12 turnovers, and that's a crazy low number we wouldn't get from any other QB. We also dont have a good enou offense to come back and score more. That is on Palmer, but also the other 10 guys and the OC. Jay Cutler turns the ball over just about as much as Palmer, but his D still hovers around the top-5 each year. Big Ben has several seasons with 15+ turnovers, and even some over 20, but he also has an elite D and they still top the ranks each year. In 09 Mark Sanchez had 23 turnovers but the Jets D still ranked #1.

Again, not saying Palmer deserves no blame, but the defense has still got to do its job. That article doesn't say what the starting field position was after every one of his picks. If they returned it into the redzone, then yea Palmer should shoulder a lot of the blame. But if they get the ball and the D lets them march 50+ yards, then I blame Palmer for turning it over, but I blame the D for letting them into the endzone.

As for the NFL.com I don't have a link, I just looked at his situational stats. It breaks it down each year for all stats while behind, tied, and in the lead.


+1 good post
_________________


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nodisrespect


Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 3650
Location: in the present
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Palmer was the worst qb on the team during the preseason, he didn't even throw a single td. And if preseason games will determine who starts, I'm pretty sure Pryor will win the starting position if he is given a fair shot. Especially if kaep wins the superbowl in 10 days, this pistol offense is catching fire in this copy cat league.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CaliforniaKid7


Joined: 23 Jan 2010
Posts: 5626
Location: Cali
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looked at some of Pryors pictures on Instagram, god the dude is just hacked. I hope he comes back an straight balls out and wins the job.
_________________

big thanks to OakleyCap on the sig
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Django


Joined: 03 May 2012
Posts: 2850
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaliforniaKid7 wrote:
Looked at some of Pryors pictures on Instagram, god the dude is just hacked. I hope he comes back an straight balls out and wins the job.


One thing thats not been mentioned...

Pryor needs to understand its not all about lifting weights.

Brady Quinn was cut up......Dude had no arm strength whatsoever.

Matt Ryan struggled mightily throwing deep in years past.

Why the improvement this year? (Sure he's not great at it and he doesnt have great arm strength)

He improved doing core workouts. He got his core stronger and got more flexible in terms of throwing the ball.

Pryor needs to understand this as well....He can be as strong as he wants to be.....He needs to worry about improving his velocity....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 11758
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pryor isn't very smart. I doubt he realizes that, Django. There's literally no way he beats out Palmer next season to start in week 1 unless Carson has a cast on somewhere. It just isn't happening just to let all you Pryor supporters know.
_________________


PM sig requests.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 11758
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoom, that's a solid post you wrote there but you're wasting your time w/ Dr Coughman. Every INT Palmer throws is WAY worse than anyone else. Why?? Well, he's the only one who really knows but obviously logical discussion has flown the coop long long ago w/ this.

I enjoy reading your posts where you destroy his little bias remarks but you're trying to knock down a steel wall w/ a feather. Good luck.
_________________


PM sig requests.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5360
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

you guys forget how important a qb who protects the ball is to the defense. ever wonder how in cp's 2 playoff years 05' and 09' he had 16 turnovers in both years. other years he had 20, 26, 24, 23 turnovers per year. qb play greatly influences wins and losses.


And defensive play greatly influences QB play. QBs playing catchup have to deal with defenses who know they have to pass. Once the run is abandoned, the defense can rush at will. Thats a major reason you see QBs throw a lot of picks when down by a lot.


http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/7/6/2262458/carson-palmers-interceptions-responsible-for-16-7-of-total-points

before you go blaming the defense read that ^

then check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOhiAL3N1zU


I never said his picks had nothing to do with the defense giving up points, either. But just for arguments sake, aside from the pick 6's it is still the defense's job to keep the other team out of the endzone. Now, dont get me wrong, it would be totally unreasonable of me to say, "hey, Palmer threw a pick and they returned it to Cincy's 10" and expect the D to keep them out every time, but turnovers happen, great punt returns happen, good starting field position happens. Whether it comes from an INT, fumble, good return, blocked punt, or an unsuccessful 4th down conversion, the defense has still got to do it's job. Now, at a certain point it does start to affect the D, and if they are defending a 40 yard field every time they take the field then it will undoubtedly affect them and then you cant put all the blame on them. But see, it goes both ways.

On the flip side, I wouldnt blame only the defense if the offense gets to start 40 yards away from the endzone due to a turnover. Its not black and white, you have to look at both parts and the amount of blame can and will vary in each situation. If the QB throws a pick and it gets returned to the 50, how is that any different from punting from your own 10 (from a defensive standpoint)? I in no way am saying picks are cool because they are like punts, I'm just saying a defense has to defend the field regardless. IMO, if you can blame just the QB for not scoring in the redzone, then you should also blame just the defense for not holding the offense to a FG in the redzone.


sure turnovers happen but when you have a td:int ratio track record like cp you think maybe its not the 10+ wr's and te's, countless coaches etc etc and maybe its cp.


For the most part, palmer is responsible for his picks and incompletions, but to say all their losing is on him is flat out wrong.

You asked if it was a coincidence that the two years Palmer had his lowest INT total were also the only years they went to the playoffs. Well I ask you this: is it also a coincidence that those playoff seasons included the only season they allowed under 21 PPG (2009) and the season they led the NFL in takeways (2005)? Everyone loves to say "defense wins championships", but when his defenses were average at best he still gets the blame. Again, it comes down to the argument of resting W/L on a QB rather than the team as a whole. Palmer deserves the blame for what he does, but a win or a loss is dependant on 20+ other players. You can throw for 400 yards and 4 TDs with no picks, but if your defense gives up 5 TDs you will lose. Why should the QB get "credited" with that loss. Likewise, a QB can do little-to-nothing but his D shuts the other team out and his RB balls out of control. Why should the QB get credit for the win? Same goes for Palmer. He isnt an elite comeback artist, but to say his w/l record is all on him is inaccurate.

And if it was all about his interceptions, then what happened this year? He only had 14 (a totally respectable number), but the defense gave up 28 PPG. Who sgould get the blame in this instance? What about in 2006? He only threw 13, and his defense was decent, and his run game was pretty good- but they still didnt make the playoffs. Who is to blame there? The answer is everyone.

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

as you see in the video most of cps ints happen when the score is tied or they are winning. not him trying to play catch up


Nope. The majority of his interceptions have come while playing from behind- 69/130 according to NFL.com.


-you dont think cp's pick 6's factor into the defenses ppg?
thats why i gave you the link to the article showing how cp's turnovers are somewhat responsible for the defenses ppg.

-got link for nfl.com info?

-i said:
Quote:
ever wonder how in cp's 2 playoff years 05' and 09' he had 16 turnovers in both years. other years he had 20, 26, 24, 23 turnovers per year.


-this year he had 19 t.o's 14 ints 5 fumbles but missed 2 games
-in 06 he had 26 t.o.'s 13 ints 13 fumbles


In 2006 he only lost 7 fumbles (still not a great number lol, but about half of what you said).

He obviously gets full blame for the pick-6s, but the other picks? IDK, that article doesnt show you the starting field position after all of his picks, and that piece of info matters. That article says he is somewhat responsible forthe defenses PPG, but the same is true for all QBs, unless of course not a single one of their turnovers have never led to points. All QBs turn the ball over. Its not like Palmer turns the ball over twice as much as your average QB. Turnovers are part of the game. The only difference is we don't have a good enough D to survive them- not just the 19 Palmer gave us, but we probably couldn't afford 12 turnovers, and that's a crazy low number we wouldn't get from any other QB. We also dont have a good enou offense to come back and score more. That is on Palmer, but also the other 10 guys and the OC. Jay Cutler turns the ball over just about as much as Palmer, but his D still hovers around the top-5 each year. Big Ben has several seasons with 15+ turnovers, and even some over 20, but he also has an elite D and they still top the ranks each year. In 09 Mark Sanchez had 23 turnovers but the Jets D still ranked #1.

Again, not saying Palmer deserves no blame, but the defense has still got to do its job. That article doesn't say what the starting field position was after every one of his picks. If they returned it into the redzone, then yea Palmer should shoulder a lot of the blame. But if they get the ball and the D lets them march 50+ yards, then I blame Palmer for turning it over, but I blame the D for letting them into the endzone.

As for the NFL.com I don't have a link, I just looked at his situational stats. It breaks it down each year for all stats while behind, tied, and in the lead.


-i thought we were just talking about cp and the bengals but you have some valid points. fwiw cutler and sanchez are scrubs who depend on their stud defenses. are you saying that cp is a scrub who needs to depend on his defense? pitt has def but ben is clutch and has the rings to prove it.

-palmer does turn the ball over a lot more than your average qb. he led the nfl in ints in 07', 3rd in 10', 4th in 04', 7th 11'. he also makes more than the average player.

-palmer did have a running game. rudi 04',05',06' never went under 1300yrds and 10 tds. not to mention benson 09', 10' going over 1k. so lets put that to rest

-cinci's defense was nothing to brag about but was better than ours over that time span including a top 5 defense in 09'.

-i noticed how you picked the best defenses maybe more of a exception

-my bad it was 13 fumbles period in 06'

-you typed a lot ill have to revisit the rest in the am when im not so bourbonated Cool


I wasnt trying to compare Palmer to Cutler or Sanchez, I guess I was just looking for examples of teams with turnover prone QBs that still have a good defense. I know its not like Palmer was surrounded by toxic waste in Cincy, but I was just saying that you cant look at the Bengals record from 2004-2010 and say "oh yea, thats because of Carson Palmer", because its always more than just the QB.

I totally understand what you are saying- defenses are affected by the offense, but the opposite is just as true. The guy makes plenty of mistakes, but I dont think he was always the biggest problem in Cincy. Obviously there will be games where it is mostly his fault, and games where it is more on the D, or ST, etc. Here in Oakland, I think it is obvious that he has not been the biggest issue. His contract certainly magnifies the fact that he isnt an all-star, but its clear that defense and Knapp's "rush attack" were the major problems this year. Either way man, I know what you are saying and I even agree to an extent, I just dont like to put all the blame on a QB unless they are trash and the rest of the team does their job at a high level.

PS stop drinking bourbon and you probably wont have to shave Jessica Rabbit as often.
_________________


Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that


Last edited by ZoomWaffle on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5360
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
Zoom, that's a solid post you wrote there but you're wasting your time w/ Dr Coughman. Every INT Palmer throws is WAY worse than anyone else. Why?? Well, he's the only one who really knows but obviously logical discussion has flown the coop long long ago w/ this.

I enjoy reading your posts where you destroy his little bias remarks but you're trying to knock down a steel wall w/ a feather. Good luck.


Thanks man. I actually understand his point in this argument, I just dont lean so heavily to one side as he does. I mean, QBs (and the offense as a whole) have an affect on the defense. However, it works the other way just the same. There will be times where a QB turns it over and it leads to points, but there will also be times where the D just gives up a bunch of points on their own. I definitely agree that the QB needs to be efficient and limit turnovers for the sake of his D, I just dont think you can put a blanket blame on the QB every time the D gives up points, even following a turnover.
_________________


Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 11758
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Zoom, that's a solid post you wrote there but you're wasting your time w/ Dr Coughman. Every INT Palmer throws is WAY worse than anyone else. Why?? Well, he's the only one who really knows but obviously logical discussion has flown the coop long long ago w/ this.

I enjoy reading your posts where you destroy his little bias remarks but you're trying to knock down a steel wall w/ a feather. Good luck.


Thanks man. I actually understand his point in this argument, I just dont lean so heavily to one side as he does. I mean, QBs (and the offense as a whole) have an affect on the defense. However, it works the other way just the same. There will be times where a QB turns it over and it leads to points, but there will also be times where the D just gives up a bunch of points on their own. I definitely agree that the QB needs to be efficient and limit turnovers for the sake of his D, I just dont think you can put a blanket blame on the QB every time the D gives up points, even following a turnover.


Dude I completely agree w/ you. We didn't have an offense to keep the defense at bay to rest b/c we couldn't run the ball to save our lives and eat up clock to sustain drives leaving us completely one-dimensional and easy to defend. But at the same time, our defense did absolutely nothing for our offense rarely getting turnovers and never helping in terms of field position. It a definite two way street. I think w/ the coaching changes on the offensive side of the ball and the potential free agents we will bring in, we will see so much more potential in our offense ergo helping our defense stay rested and hopefully, that improves their performance. As you may have noticed in my mock, I'm all about a rotational scheme and keeping people fresh on the defensive front.
_________________


PM sig requests.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Django


Joined: 03 May 2012
Posts: 2850
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
Pryor isn't very smart. I doubt he realizes that, Django. There's literally no way he beats out Palmer next season to start in week 1 unless Carson has a cast on somewhere. It just isn't happening just to let all you Pryor supporters know.



I dont think "smarts" has anything to do with that. Quinn is a smart guy and he did it wrong for years. I'd say thats more on his trainers/QB coaches to inform him of that.
_________________
McGloin > Carr bandwagon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 11758
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Django wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Pryor isn't very smart. I doubt he realizes that, Django. There's literally no way he beats out Palmer next season to start in week 1 unless Carson has a cast on somewhere. It just isn't happening just to let all you Pryor supporters know.



I dont think "smarts" has anything to do with that. Quinn is a smart guy and he did it wrong for years. I'd say thats more on his trainers/QB coaches to inform him of that.


IMO, knowledge and intelligence are highly underrated. IMO, Quinn's biggest problem is he lacked confidence. But of course we can't sit here and go back and forth saying "well he's smart but he sucks so that doesn't work" and vice-versa. Obviously everyone is different and all factors need to be accounted for but I am a firm believer in intelligence and experience as far as tangibles go.
_________________


PM sig requests.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 14746
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@zoom

i hear what you are saying but i just dont think we can offer cp what he needs or even give him better than he had in cinci. maybe you are right and his style of qb needs a top 5 defense just to stay afloat. just for arguments sake lets blame the team. arguable the team we have here is worse than cinci across the board. why do you think he can succeed here?

trust me i bought into cp3 and gave him a chance (even called him carson bomber) and he just kept screwing up. imo he will never be more than a top 15-20 qb. his prime has passed him by and right now he is just getting by on talent and arm strength. we can blame everyone else in the world but the one common factor is cp. maybe i shouldnt think like that but ive seen a lot of him and since my fam are bengals i heard a lot about him and its about 30/70 (good/bad).

thats why im ready to move on from cp. he wont be able to get it done here cause we dont have the money or talent he requires and he doesnt have the years left that we require. you cant rebuild with a 32 yo qb imo.

you made a great argument and made me do hella homework Laughing

ps i will never stop drinking bourbon muahahahaha
_________________


green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5360
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Zoom, that's a solid post you wrote there but you're wasting your time w/ Dr Coughman. Every INT Palmer throws is WAY worse than anyone else. Why?? Well, he's the only one who really knows but obviously logical discussion has flown the coop long long ago w/ this.

I enjoy reading your posts where you destroy his little bias remarks but you're trying to knock down a steel wall w/ a feather. Good luck.


Thanks man. I actually understand his point in this argument, I just dont lean so heavily to one side as he does. I mean, QBs (and the offense as a whole) have an affect on the defense. However, it works the other way just the same. There will be times where a QB turns it over and it leads to points, but there will also be times where the D just gives up a bunch of points on their own. I definitely agree that the QB needs to be efficient and limit turnovers for the sake of his D, I just dont think you can put a blanket blame on the QB every time the D gives up points, even following a turnover.


Dude I completely agree w/ you. We didn't have an offense to keep the defense at bay to rest b/c we couldn't run the ball to save our lives and eat up clock to sustain drives leaving us completely one-dimensional and easy to defend. But at the same time, our defense did absolutely nothing for our offense rarely getting turnovers and never helping in terms of field position. It a definite two way street. I think w/ the coaching changes on the offensive side of the ball and the potential free agents we will bring in, we will see so much more potential in our offense ergo helping our defense stay rested and hopefully, that improves their performance. As you may have noticed in my mock, I'm all about a rotational scheme and keeping people fresh on the defensive front.


+1

I really think switching schemes alone will improve our offense a lot. If McFadden is able to run like he did in 2010-2011, that right there will make a huge difference even if Palmer, Moore, Streater, etc play on the same level as they did this year. Our defense needs work for sure, lots of it, but at least with a funcitoning offense we will keep them more fresh and be able to put up more points to keep up.
_________________


Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Oakland Raiders All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 34, 35, 36  Next
Page 35 of 36

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group