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Would you be okay with Pryor going forward?
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What would you like Oakland to do at QB next season?
Start Palmer, develop Pryor
56%
 56%  [ 37 ]
Start Pryor, Carson mentor
18%
 18%  [ 12 ]
Start Palmer, cut Pryor, get a new QBOTF
7%
 7%  [ 5 ]
Start Pryor, draft QBOTF
7%
 7%  [ 5 ]
Other
9%
 9%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 65

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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5360
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

you guys forget how important a qb who protects the ball is to the defense. ever wonder how in cp's 2 playoff years 05' and 09' he had 16 turnovers in both years. other years he had 20, 26, 24, 23 turnovers per year. qb play greatly influences wins and losses.


And defensive play greatly influences QB play. QBs playing catchup have to deal with defenses who know they have to pass. Once the run is abandoned, the defense can rush at will. Thats a major reason you see QBs throw a lot of picks when down by a lot.


http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/7/6/2262458/carson-palmers-interceptions-responsible-for-16-7-of-total-points

before you go blaming the defense read that ^

then check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOhiAL3N1zU


I never said his picks had nothing to do with the defense giving up points, either. But just for arguments sake, aside from the pick 6's it is still the defense's job to keep the other team out of the endzone. Now, dont get me wrong, it would be totally unreasonable of me to say, "hey, Palmer threw a pick and they returned it to Cincy's 10" and expect the D to keep them out every time, but turnovers happen, great punt returns happen, good starting field position happens. Whether it comes from an INT, fumble, good return, blocked punt, or an unsuccessful 4th down conversion, the defense has still got to do it's job. Now, at a certain point it does start to affect the D, and if they are defending a 40 yard field every time they take the field then it will undoubtedly affect them and then you cant put all the blame on them. But see, it goes both ways.

On the flip side, I wouldnt blame only the defense if the offense gets to start 40 yards away from the endzone due to a turnover. Its not black and white, you have to look at both parts and the amount of blame can and will vary in each situation. If the QB throws a pick and it gets returned to the 50, how is that any different from punting from your own 10 (from a defensive standpoint)? I in no way am saying picks are cool because they are like punts, I'm just saying a defense has to defend the field regardless. IMO, if you can blame just the QB for not scoring in the redzone, then you should also blame just the defense for not holding the offense to a FG in the redzone.
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La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5360
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
So we put all the blame on the defense (apparently) yet you put all the blame on Palmer? Where's option C?


I have never placed all the blame on the defense or not on Palmer (when applicable). People have the tendency to blow things out of proportion and almost everyone is guilty of it at some point.

W/ our defense lacking in the ability to get turnovers and our margin only being -7, I think it's safe to say that we didn't turn the ball over as much as many people would indicate. It's one thing our defense NEEDS to improve on. We were terrible at it this year. I can't recall off the top of my head but how many games did we go through w/o even getting one turnover in our favor??


I know, my point was it's a team game, and to put all the blame on one unit is ridiculous.

People get all over Pryors 3 TD's, but when was the last time Palmer had his Special teams unit put the ball inside the ten yard line for him?

There were a lot of factors that played into this season that go far beyond Palmers abilities. With that said, I just want the best QB to win and to earn the spot in training camp, whether that be Pryor, Palmer, a rookie or a free agent. I have nothing against Pryor, If he starts there will obviously be a good reason behind it, not just that "well he's young and athletic, so why not?"


+1

I do not love Carson Palmer. I dont think he is a great QB, or even one of the best in the NFL. What I am is a Palmer supporter. I am pretty realistic about him. I acknowledge when he makes bad throws, bad decisions, or is having a bad series or game. But I also am not going to sit there and ignore a completely ineffective run game, or an incompetent OC calling plays that go against everything Palmer was built to do. You guys know a lot about football, you know those kinds of things limit what a QB can do. People were dogging his RZ play this year, yet he had a 91 rating and 13 TDs to just 1 INT in the RZ. If thats not blind hate then I dont know what is. Blame Palmer for some bad decisions, blame him for some bad drives, say he is overpaid, blame him for whatever, but just be realistic about it. If you really cannot see and acknowledge that our offensive line, run game, defense, and playcalling (probably all individually) had at least an equal hand in our failures, then it really is nothing more than a bias on your part.

As for Pryor, I am just being realistic about the guy. He possesses incredible athletic ability, but he is a really bad passer. As of right now, I do not think he has what it takes to be a starter in this league. Thats not to say he cant improve, which he surely will. But just how much he improves is the real question. I lack confidence in him because the kind of passes he throws over 10 yards are the kind of passes that all too frequently end up overthrown, out of bounds, or in a defender's hands. Has anyone ever seen a starting NFL QB who puts that much air under his throws? Those are the types of throws you see maybe once a game from good QBs. I dont hate the guy, I am realistic, and right now I dont see an NFL QB.
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Django


Joined: 03 May 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
Anybody see this?

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/54263/will-pryor-seize-qb-competition


carpe diem


http://replygif.net/1000

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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

you guys forget how important a qb who protects the ball is to the defense. ever wonder how in cp's 2 playoff years 05' and 09' he had 16 turnovers in both years. other years he had 20, 26, 24, 23 turnovers per year. qb play greatly influences wins and losses.


And defensive play greatly influences QB play. QBs playing catchup have to deal with defenses who know they have to pass. Once the run is abandoned, the defense can rush at will. Thats a major reason you see QBs throw a lot of picks when down by a lot.


http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/7/6/2262458/carson-palmers-interceptions-responsible-for-16-7-of-total-points

before you go blaming the defense read that ^

then check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOhiAL3N1zU


I never said his picks had nothing to do with the defense giving up points, either. But just for arguments sake, aside from the pick 6's it is still the defense's job to keep the other team out of the endzone. Now, dont get me wrong, it would be totally unreasonable of me to say, "hey, Palmer threw a pick and they returned it to Cincy's 10" and expect the D to keep them out every time, but turnovers happen, great punt returns happen, good starting field position happens. Whether it comes from an INT, fumble, good return, blocked punt, or an unsuccessful 4th down conversion, the defense has still got to do it's job. Now, at a certain point it does start to affect the D, and if they are defending a 40 yard field every time they take the field then it will undoubtedly affect them and then you cant put all the blame on them. But see, it goes both ways.

On the flip side, I wouldnt blame only the defense if the offense gets to start 40 yards away from the endzone due to a turnover. Its not black and white, you have to look at both parts and the amount of blame can and will vary in each situation. If the QB throws a pick and it gets returned to the 50, how is that any different from punting from your own 10 (from a defensive standpoint)? I in no way am saying picks are cool because they are like punts, I'm just saying a defense has to defend the field regardless. IMO, if you can blame just the QB for not scoring in the redzone, then you should also blame just the defense for not holding the offense to a FG in the redzone.


sure turnovers happen but when you have a td:int ratio track record like cp you think maybe its not the 10+ wr's and te's, countless coaches etc etc and maybe its cp.

as you see in the video most of cps ints happen when the score is tied or they are winning. not him trying to play catch up.
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


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NCOUGHMAN


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
all true. i cant hate. for better or worse its all true



some things cant be argued. this was one of them. props. Cool
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
all true. i cant hate. for better or worse its all true



some things cant be argued. this was one of them. props. Cool


Haha I just really liked that daps gif
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BigBillsFan13 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Somewhere, RR strokes his mustache with pride
Among other things...
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

sure turnovers happen but when you have a td:int ratio track record like cp you think maybe its not the 10+ wr's and te's, countless coaches etc etc and maybe its cp.

as you see in the video most of cps ints happen when the score is tied or they are winning. not him trying to play catch up.


You do realize your sig makes no sense, right?? Nothing in my statements indicate TO's don't matter. Try again.

I would respond to this altogether but we've been down this road so many times. Hell, I've given you the data that S&B did, just not in graph form, and you give him props yet you argued to the bone against me..... W/ THE SAME INFORMATION. LOL but if you're gonna try to mock me in your sig, maybe I should find your Jones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moore >>>>>>>>> Clowney post or where you called him a poor man's Tuck when you didn't even know what year he was or admitted you've never seen him play before LOL
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

you guys forget how important a qb who protects the ball is to the defense. ever wonder how in cp's 2 playoff years 05' and 09' he had 16 turnovers in both years. other years he had 20, 26, 24, 23 turnovers per year. qb play greatly influences wins and losses.


And defensive play greatly influences QB play. QBs playing catchup have to deal with defenses who know they have to pass. Once the run is abandoned, the defense can rush at will. Thats a major reason you see QBs throw a lot of picks when down by a lot.


http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/7/6/2262458/carson-palmers-interceptions-responsible-for-16-7-of-total-points

before you go blaming the defense read that ^

then check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOhiAL3N1zU


I never said his picks had nothing to do with the defense giving up points, either. But just for arguments sake, aside from the pick 6's it is still the defense's job to keep the other team out of the endzone. Now, dont get me wrong, it would be totally unreasonable of me to say, "hey, Palmer threw a pick and they returned it to Cincy's 10" and expect the D to keep them out every time, but turnovers happen, great punt returns happen, good starting field position happens. Whether it comes from an INT, fumble, good return, blocked punt, or an unsuccessful 4th down conversion, the defense has still got to do it's job. Now, at a certain point it does start to affect the D, and if they are defending a 40 yard field every time they take the field then it will undoubtedly affect them and then you cant put all the blame on them. But see, it goes both ways.

On the flip side, I wouldnt blame only the defense if the offense gets to start 40 yards away from the endzone due to a turnover. Its not black and white, you have to look at both parts and the amount of blame can and will vary in each situation. If the QB throws a pick and it gets returned to the 50, how is that any different from punting from your own 10 (from a defensive standpoint)? I in no way am saying picks are cool because they are like punts, I'm just saying a defense has to defend the field regardless. IMO, if you can blame just the QB for not scoring in the redzone, then you should also blame just the defense for not holding the offense to a FG in the redzone.


sure turnovers happen but when you have a td:int ratio track record like cp you think maybe its not the 10+ wr's and te's, countless coaches etc etc and maybe its cp.


For the most part, palmer is responsible for his picks and incompletions, but to say all their losing is on him is flat out wrong.

You asked if it was a coincidence that the two years Palmer had his lowest INT total were also the only years they went to the playoffs. Well I ask you this: is it also a coincidence that those playoff seasons included the only season they allowed under 21 PPG (2009) and the season they led the NFL in takeways (2005)? Everyone loves to say "defense wins championships", but when his defenses were average at best he still gets the blame. Again, it comes down to the argument of resting W/L on a QB rather than the team as a whole. Palmer deserves the blame for what he does, but a win or a loss is dependant on 20+ other players. You can throw for 400 yards and 4 TDs with no picks, but if your defense gives up 5 TDs you will lose. Why should the QB get "credited" with that loss. Likewise, a QB can do little-to-nothing but his D shuts the other team out and his RB balls out of control. Why should the QB get credit for the win? Same goes for Palmer. He isnt an elite comeback artist, but to say his w/l record is all on him is inaccurate.

And if it was all about his interceptions, then what happened this year? He only had 14 (a totally respectable number), but the defense gave up 28 PPG. Who sgould get the blame in this instance? What about in 2006? He only threw 13, and his defense was decent, and his run game was pretty good- but they still didnt make the playoffs. Who is to blame there? The answer is everyone.

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

as you see in the video most of cps ints happen when the score is tied or they are winning. not him trying to play catch up


Nope. The majority of his interceptions have come while playing from behind- 69/130 according to NFL.com.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

sure turnovers happen but when you have a td:int ratio track record like cp you think maybe its not the 10+ wr's and te's, countless coaches etc etc and maybe its cp.

as you see in the video most of cps ints happen when the score is tied or they are winning. not him trying to play catch up.


You do realize your sig makes no sense, right?? Nothing in my statements indicate TO's don't matter. Try again.

I would respond to this altogether but we've been down this road so many times. Hell, I've given you the data that S&B did, just not in graph form, and you give him props yet you argued to the bone against me..... W/ THE SAME INFORMATION. LOL but if you're gonna try to mock me in your sig, maybe I should find your Jones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moore >>>>>>>>> Clowney post or where you called him a poor man's Tuck when you didn't even know what year he was or admitted you've never seen him play before LOL


unlike you s&b included the positives and the negatives. his comment was very un biased and i respect that and had no rebuttal.

a sig quote is a sig quote you should feel privileged that i quoted you Laughing. everyone has been pleased when i siq quoted them.

you said to stop upplaying cps ints. so i guess i should downplay them or totally ignore them because they are insignificant.
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


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NCOUGHMAN


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

you guys forget how important a qb who protects the ball is to the defense. ever wonder how in cp's 2 playoff years 05' and 09' he had 16 turnovers in both years. other years he had 20, 26, 24, 23 turnovers per year. qb play greatly influences wins and losses.


And defensive play greatly influences QB play. QBs playing catchup have to deal with defenses who know they have to pass. Once the run is abandoned, the defense can rush at will. Thats a major reason you see QBs throw a lot of picks when down by a lot.


http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/7/6/2262458/carson-palmers-interceptions-responsible-for-16-7-of-total-points

before you go blaming the defense read that ^

then check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOhiAL3N1zU


I never said his picks had nothing to do with the defense giving up points, either. But just for arguments sake, aside from the pick 6's it is still the defense's job to keep the other team out of the endzone. Now, dont get me wrong, it would be totally unreasonable of me to say, "hey, Palmer threw a pick and they returned it to Cincy's 10" and expect the D to keep them out every time, but turnovers happen, great punt returns happen, good starting field position happens. Whether it comes from an INT, fumble, good return, blocked punt, or an unsuccessful 4th down conversion, the defense has still got to do it's job. Now, at a certain point it does start to affect the D, and if they are defending a 40 yard field every time they take the field then it will undoubtedly affect them and then you cant put all the blame on them. But see, it goes both ways.

On the flip side, I wouldnt blame only the defense if the offense gets to start 40 yards away from the endzone due to a turnover. Its not black and white, you have to look at both parts and the amount of blame can and will vary in each situation. If the QB throws a pick and it gets returned to the 50, how is that any different from punting from your own 10 (from a defensive standpoint)? I in no way am saying picks are cool because they are like punts, I'm just saying a defense has to defend the field regardless. IMO, if you can blame just the QB for not scoring in the redzone, then you should also blame just the defense for not holding the offense to a FG in the redzone.


sure turnovers happen but when you have a td:int ratio track record like cp you think maybe its not the 10+ wr's and te's, countless coaches etc etc and maybe its cp.


For the most part, palmer is responsible for his picks and incompletions, but to say all their losing is on him is flat out wrong.

You asked if it was a coincidence that the two years Palmer had his lowest INT total were also the only years they went to the playoffs. Well I ask you this: is it also a coincidence that those playoff seasons included the only season they allowed under 21 PPG (2009) and the season they led the NFL in takeways (2005)? Everyone loves to say "defense wins championships", but when his defenses were average at best he still gets the blame. Again, it comes down to the argument of resting W/L on a QB rather than the team as a whole. Palmer deserves the blame for what he does, but a win or a loss is dependant on 20+ other players. You can throw for 400 yards and 4 TDs with no picks, but if your defense gives up 5 TDs you will lose. Why should the QB get "credited" with that loss. Likewise, a QB can do little-to-nothing but his D shuts the other team out and his RB balls out of control. Why should the QB get credit for the win? Same goes for Palmer. He isnt an elite comeback artist, but to say his w/l record is all on him is inaccurate.

And if it was all about his interceptions, then what happened this year? He only had 14 (a totally respectable number), but the defense gave up 28 PPG. Who sgould get the blame in this instance? What about in 2006? He only threw 13, and his defense was decent, and his run game was pretty good- but they still didnt make the playoffs. Who is to blame there? The answer is everyone.

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

as you see in the video most of cps ints happen when the score is tied or they are winning. not him trying to play catch up


Nope. The majority of his interceptions have come while playing from behind- 69/130 according to NFL.com.


-you dont think cp's pick 6's factor into the defenses ppg?
thats why i gave you the link to the article showing how cp's turnovers are somewhat responsible for the defenses ppg.

-got link for nfl.com info?

-i said:
Quote:
ever wonder how in cp's 2 playoff years 05' and 09' he had 16 turnovers in both years. other years he had 20, 26, 24, 23 turnovers per year.


-this year he had 19 t.o's 14 ints 5 fumbles but missed 2 games
-in 06 he had 26 t.o.'s 13 ints 13 fumbles
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


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BBIB


Joined: 20 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickButera wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:

Pryor will never face 7-8 defenders in coverage in any formation because no defense will ever respect his throwing ability. They can commit the defenders to the LOS because even with easier reads and all that jazz, he still will struggle to get the ball on target. None of our WRs warrant double coverage, and even less so with Pryor at QB, so it's not like they need extra guys in coverage.


This is the reason why the pistol will not work with 2 or 3 average passers who can run the ball. BBIB's argument is that any 2 or 3 QB's can run a teams offense that is designed in his way as long as they are average at passing and can run. Problem is, if you are average at throwing, the whole backfield is never going to drop back into coverage, it will be basic man or zone coverage that everyone else see's and the defense won't be leaving everyone open as theorized.

If this was the case then Michael Vick would have been able to sustain long term success because he is one of the more dynamic runners in the league, and still is. But teams do not respect his arm. His opponents would constantly watch for the run, and yet his WR's were not constantly open. RG3, Kaep, and Wilson all are very good pocket passers, well above average. Which is why they are succeeding, they are not succeeding only because they are dual threat and are in the right scheme. This is selling them short and is almost disrespectful to what they have accomplished, saying that their success passing is predicated on hitting wide open receivers all the time. Kaep specifically has made some of the most amazing 'thread the needle' type passes since he's been starting, same goes with RG3. Wilson is one of the more intelligent rookies I've seen in a while with a command of the offense that you see out of many seasoned veterans. Their success is based off of a lot more than just scheme.

I dunno, there seems to be a lot of holes in this theory and it seems strange to think that it can always work when it has in fact, so far, never worked. Not at least how I understand that you say it can. I have yet to see a team sustain long term success run by 2 or 3 QB's on the same team who can run and are average passers. Average passers have never sustained long term success no matter what other attributes they possess.

I think you should tweak your theory a bit, if you are a great passer and a great runner, you are going to see success. But that isn't predicated on the pistol formation, or any scheme, it's based on his ability to pass and run at a high level.


Michael Vick being in the west coast offense has nothing to do with the Pistol offense

Vick was in the wrong offense his whole career. The point of the pistol is that it maximizes the ability to run for the QB and with the threat of the run it makes passing lanes as favorable as they will ever be in this league

And the Qb doesn't have to process as much information before or after the snap as they would do is a 100% drop back offense

Saying guys succeeding in the Pistol offense is proof that they would be comfortable in a more complex offense is a bit of stretch on your part

They dont have to process near the amount of information at the LOS nor does it take as much precision and timing patterns


Kaepernick would not have near the success he's having now if he was required to make checks at the LOS like he's Peyton Manning
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burgesskills wrote:
The offense Chip Kelly ran at Oregon was fast and up tempo. He had a lot of speed to play with...but this is the NFL. The defenses in the NFL are much faster than in college. Chip Kelly never played a down in the NFL, never coached any position in the NFL....there is no guarantee he succeeds, let alone revolutionizes the most polarized position in the game.
There have been a lot of offensive innovators to come along and some brilliant offensive minds, but none of them have been able to plug whichever QB they wanted toÖitís not that easy, especially at this level. There have also been some great coaches on the collegiate level who fizzle in the NFLÖ.Steve Spurrier, Nick Saban, Bobby Petrino, Butch Davis, and Dennis Erickson to name a few. These guys were all great college coaches and busted out of the NFL.
I think the Pistol formation (it is just a formation) and the read option will stay in todayís NFL for awhile. There are a lot of dual threat QBís who can run a play out of the pistol and who will find lanes with the read option. Atlanta tried to take it away yesterday, giving Frank Gores a lot of space. In the NFL Chip Kelly will have to find a concrete starter and hope he is more than solid. Iím not saying a fill in canít find some moderate success, because that happens now with some teams, but no no no, itís not going to be like Shannahanís running back carousel. By the way, Olandis Garry and Mike Anderson did have good seasons, but Terrell Davis was dominant and his offensive production could not be replaced and Clinton Portis was a starÖ.
I personally feel like Kelly will be back in college within three seasons, maybe four.



A total misconception about Chip Kelly is that his offense is just about being fast

He didn't have mostly Qbs running 4.3 40s or running backs with Chris Johnson speed.

That's not why his offense was successful

It was successful because it creates confusion, uncertainty, overreactions at the LOS

It creates overloads of blocking, it foces defenses to be balanced and forces them to pay for being unbalanced.

It has moves and counter moves and then some against a defensive approach and it punishes defenses with constraint plays

You need to watch the tutorial on Chip Kelly's offense. There are so many misconceptions about what made that offense successful

It wasn't just "hey look we are faster than everybody so any play will work"

The plays through misdirection through putting defenders in no man's lane, again through simple math and geometry defenses are at a disadvantage

Oregon could have extra blockers on the playside, and the angles created made lanes more favorable for running

And that's not taking into account the fatigue factor
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

unlike you s&b included the positives and the negatives. his comment was very un biased and i respect that and had no rebuttal.

a sig quote is a sig quote you should feel privileged that i quoted you Laughing. everyone has been pleased when i siq quoted them.

you said to stop upplaying cps ints. so i guess i should downplay them or totally ignore them because they are insignificant.


So wait..... when I present the precise, exact same info he does, it's w/ bias?? LOL. Do you even believe what you write??

You're also blowing what I said completely out of proportion. Every day I don't think I can still be amazed, but yet, you do it. Congrats. But just in case there is hope, you sit here and blah blah blah about his INTs when I have shown you (and S&B) proof that it really wasn't as bad as you make it out to be every single time. You give him props but call me bias and attempt to make a mockery out of me w/ your sig. I'm completely baffled by this.....
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

unlike you s&b included the positives and the negatives. his comment was very un biased and i respect that and had no rebuttal.

a sig quote is a sig quote you should feel privileged that i quoted you Laughing. everyone has been pleased when i siq quoted them.

you said to stop upplaying cps ints. so i guess i should downplay them or totally ignore them because they are insignificant.


So wait..... when I present the precise, exact same info he does, it's w/ bias?? LOL. Do you even believe what you write??

You're also blowing what I said completely out of proportion. Every day I don't think I can still be amazed, but yet, you do it. Congrats. But just in case there is hope, you sit here and blah blah blah about his INTs when I have shown you (and S&B) proof that it really wasn't as bad as you make it out to be every single time. You give him props but call me bias and attempt to make a mockery out of me w/ your sig. I'm completely baffled by this.....


when you start being rational and include positives and negatives in your statements (like S&b did) then ill give you props too Laughing . you should really go read his post again. I was ready to "strike down upon him with furious anger" until i saw he included my rebuttals. so i had no complaints.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

you guys forget how important a qb who protects the ball is to the defense. ever wonder how in cp's 2 playoff years 05' and 09' he had 16 turnovers in both years. other years he had 20, 26, 24, 23 turnovers per year. qb play greatly influences wins and losses.


And defensive play greatly influences QB play. QBs playing catchup have to deal with defenses who know they have to pass. Once the run is abandoned, the defense can rush at will. Thats a major reason you see QBs throw a lot of picks when down by a lot.


http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/7/6/2262458/carson-palmers-interceptions-responsible-for-16-7-of-total-points

before you go blaming the defense read that ^

then check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOhiAL3N1zU


I never said his picks had nothing to do with the defense giving up points, either. But just for arguments sake, aside from the pick 6's it is still the defense's job to keep the other team out of the endzone. Now, dont get me wrong, it would be totally unreasonable of me to say, "hey, Palmer threw a pick and they returned it to Cincy's 10" and expect the D to keep them out every time, but turnovers happen, great punt returns happen, good starting field position happens. Whether it comes from an INT, fumble, good return, blocked punt, or an unsuccessful 4th down conversion, the defense has still got to do it's job. Now, at a certain point it does start to affect the D, and if they are defending a 40 yard field every time they take the field then it will undoubtedly affect them and then you cant put all the blame on them. But see, it goes both ways.

On the flip side, I wouldnt blame only the defense if the offense gets to start 40 yards away from the endzone due to a turnover. Its not black and white, you have to look at both parts and the amount of blame can and will vary in each situation. If the QB throws a pick and it gets returned to the 50, how is that any different from punting from your own 10 (from a defensive standpoint)? I in no way am saying picks are cool because they are like punts, I'm just saying a defense has to defend the field regardless. IMO, if you can blame just the QB for not scoring in the redzone, then you should also blame just the defense for not holding the offense to a FG in the redzone.


sure turnovers happen but when you have a td:int ratio track record like cp you think maybe its not the 10+ wr's and te's, countless coaches etc etc and maybe its cp.


For the most part, palmer is responsible for his picks and incompletions, but to say all their losing is on him is flat out wrong.

You asked if it was a coincidence that the two years Palmer had his lowest INT total were also the only years they went to the playoffs. Well I ask you this: is it also a coincidence that those playoff seasons included the only season they allowed under 21 PPG (2009) and the season they led the NFL in takeways (2005)? Everyone loves to say "defense wins championships", but when his defenses were average at best he still gets the blame. Again, it comes down to the argument of resting W/L on a QB rather than the team as a whole. Palmer deserves the blame for what he does, but a win or a loss is dependant on 20+ other players. You can throw for 400 yards and 4 TDs with no picks, but if your defense gives up 5 TDs you will lose. Why should the QB get "credited" with that loss. Likewise, a QB can do little-to-nothing but his D shuts the other team out and his RB balls out of control. Why should the QB get credit for the win? Same goes for Palmer. He isnt an elite comeback artist, but to say his w/l record is all on him is inaccurate.

And if it was all about his interceptions, then what happened this year? He only had 14 (a totally respectable number), but the defense gave up 28 PPG. Who sgould get the blame in this instance? What about in 2006? He only threw 13, and his defense was decent, and his run game was pretty good- but they still didnt make the playoffs. Who is to blame there? The answer is everyone.

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

as you see in the video most of cps ints happen when the score is tied or they are winning. not him trying to play catch up


Nope. The majority of his interceptions have come while playing from behind- 69/130 according to NFL.com.


-you dont think cp's pick 6's factor into the defenses ppg?
thats why i gave you the link to the article showing how cp's turnovers are somewhat responsible for the defenses ppg.

-got link for nfl.com info?

-i said:
Quote:
ever wonder how in cp's 2 playoff years 05' and 09' he had 16 turnovers in both years. other years he had 20, 26, 24, 23 turnovers per year.


-this year he had 19 t.o's 14 ints 5 fumbles but missed 2 games
-in 06 he had 26 t.o.'s 13 ints 13 fumbles


In 2006 he only lost 7 fumbles (still not a great number lol, but about half of what you said).

He obviously gets full blame for the pick-6s, but the other picks? IDK, that article doesnt show you the starting field position after all of his picks, and that piece of info matters. That article says he is somewhat responsible forthe defenses PPG, but the same is true for all QBs, unless of course not a single one of their turnovers have never led to points. All QBs turn the ball over. Its not like Palmer turns the ball over twice as much as your average QB. Turnovers are part of the game. The only difference is we don't have a good enough D to survive them- not just the 19 Palmer gave us, but we probably couldn't afford 12 turnovers, and that's a crazy low number we wouldn't get from any other QB. We also dont have a good enou offense to come back and score more. That is on Palmer, but also the other 10 guys and the OC. Jay Cutler turns the ball over just about as much as Palmer, but his D still hovers around the top-5 each year. Big Ben has several seasons with 15+ turnovers, and even some over 20, but he also has an elite D and they still top the ranks each year. In 09 Mark Sanchez had 23 turnovers but the Jets D still ranked #1.

Again, not saying Palmer deserves no blame, but the defense has still got to do its job. That article doesn't say what the starting field position was after every one of his picks. If they returned it into the redzone, then yea Palmer should shoulder a lot of the blame. But if they get the ball and the D lets them march 50+ yards, then I blame Palmer for turning it over, but I blame the D for letting them into the endzone.

As for the NFL.com I don't have a link, I just looked at his situational stats. It breaks it down each year for all stats while behind, tied, and in the lead.
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