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Gmen


Joined: 20 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GEE MEN wrote:
Gmen wrote:
I think we're long overdue for a stud offensive lineman. Warmack would be my top choice. By many accounts he is one of the top 10 players in this draft , and the only reason he'd be available at 19 is because of his position. Although it happens rarely, offensive guards taken in the first round tend to enjoy success in the NFL (except if you're a 27 year old firefighter Laughing ).

I also wouldn't mind Jonathon Cooper. He's not as much of a mauler as Warmack, but he can move better and could possibly play center when the David Baas experiment is finally deemed a failure.

And unlike most of you, I also wouldn't mind DJ Fluker. A road grader at RT would do wonders for David Wilson.

I agree with Gmen. Some say Fluker might be better suited at RG but he'd be an upgrade over Diehl and may have flexibility to play other positions.

As an aside, CONGRATS Gmen. 15,000 posts. You always have insightful contributions. May you have at least another 15,000 more posts (with a few more epic battles with MH). Laughing

I actually heard either Mayock or Brandt say that there is growing optimism that Fluker could even play LT in the NFL. So take that for what it's worth.

And thank you. I haven't argued with Maddhatter since Eli's second SB win over a year go. I mean, what is there to debate anymore? Laughing
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jerseyboy257


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the two RT we spent 2 picks on in last years draft? And what about James Brewer? For a team that let up the least sacks in the NFL last year, I don't think RT is much of a concern when you have 4 guys fighting for the position. Especially in the first round. More importantly, that 30th ranked defense needs upgrades.
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jerseyboy257 wrote:
What about the two RT we spent 2 picks on in last years draft? And what about James Brewer? For a team that let up the least sacks in the NFL last year, I don't think RT is much of a concern when you have 4 guys fighting for the position. Especially in the first round. More importantly, that 30th ranked defense needs upgrades.

Mosely was moved to guard, and McCants wasn't good enough to make the roster. You can't rely on late round picks. I don't know about Brewer because he hasn't played. Only the Giants coaches now if he's capable of starting. If we don't address RT early in this draft, that's probably a good sign for Brewer.

I'm all for drafting defense as well. I wouldn't mind seeing DE, DT or CB in the first round.
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jerseyboy257


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
jerseyboy257 wrote:
What about the two RT we spent 2 picks on in last years draft? And what about James Brewer? For a team that let up the least sacks in the NFL last year, I don't think RT is much of a concern when you have 4 guys fighting for the position. Especially in the first round. More importantly, that 30th ranked defense needs upgrades.

Mosely was moved to guard, and McCants wasn't good enough to make the roster. You can't rely on late round picks. I don't know about Brewer because he hasn't played. Only the Giants coaches now if he's capable of starting. If we don't address RT early in this draft, that's probably a good sign for Brewer.

I'm all for drafting defense as well. I wouldn't mind seeing DE, DT or CB in the first round.

I know everyone's given up on Diehl already, but he was struggling with injuries throughout last season which could have had been the reasoning for his poor performance... I think he should at least be given the chance to try to show the coaches that he can be more durable and productive, and if so, I'd be fine with him at RT for at least this year. And Brewer can show us what he's got. And if we can't rely on late round picks then why even bother drafting these players? They are developmental tackles, but how many of them do we really need?
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fracdaddy14


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering the potential issues with Nicks and Cruz on large contracts, what do people think of Keenan Allen? He was once thought to be the top WR, but has fallen due to a slow 40 and drug test red flag at the combine. He was a team captain at Cal and is a pretty complete WR.
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dkebones


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fracdaddy14 wrote:
Considering the potential issues with Nicks and Cruz on large contracts, what do people think of Keenan Allen? He was once thought to be the top WR, but has fallen due to a slow 40 and drug test red flag at the combine. He was a team captain at Cal and is a pretty complete WR.


i think that it is a legit concern that we could lose one of them, however I wouldn't go with Allen since we'd still have Randle as our "physical" receiver. While Cruz is preferable in the slot, I actually think that if push comes to shove, barring a fully healthy and productive season, the FO would let Nicks walk before Cruz.

Personally, I would love to see us grab Stedman Bailey- i think that he and Austin are two of the most NFL ready receivers in the draft and Bailey could easily have the best hands of the class and won't cost a #1 pick (even with drug test I don't see how Allen gets to #49). He doesn't have Nicks' size, but he can still play on the outside, which would allow us to leave Cruz in the slot if he is more comfortable there.
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Gmen1985


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fracdaddy14 wrote:
jerseyboy257 wrote:
I could see it, but I wouldn't be too happy with it. We need more talent on defense and need to address it early imo. But I will say that this would be the only pick I could tolerate if we go offense. People need to stop mocking Fluker to the Giants. Like now.


Ugh, I hear that. Chance or a Defensive stud, no other exceptions. Not a fan of Fluker, I don't know if he has the lateral movement to handle the increasing speed rushers at RT with more 3-4 and hybrid defenses. I mean, he was dominated by the undersized DE from Western Kentucky, Quanterus Smith. Big guys like him seem to be good fits at OG, but would likely struggle with leverage against quick DTs. I think he'll be decent, but I wouldn't touch him in Round 1. I hope he is gone by pick #19 so there isn't even any temptation.


I just don't think Chance gets past the cowboys at 18. They're so desperate for O-line help. Maybe if Vacaro is still there the boys could go that way, I just don't see Chance being there. I would be ecstatic if he were the pick though.
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GMENNATION


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen1985 wrote:
fracdaddy14 wrote:
jerseyboy257 wrote:
I could see it, but I wouldn't be too happy with it. We need more talent on defense and need to address it early imo. But I will say that this would be the only pick I could tolerate if we go offense. People need to stop mocking Fluker to the Giants. Like now.


Ugh, I hear that. Chance or a Defensive stud, no other exceptions. Not a fan of Fluker, I don't know if he has the lateral movement to handle the increasing speed rushers at RT with more 3-4 and hybrid defenses. I mean, he was dominated by the undersized DE from Western Kentucky, Quanterus Smith. Big guys like him seem to be good fits at OG, but would likely struggle with leverage against quick DTs. I think he'll be decent, but I wouldn't touch him in Round 1. I hope he is gone by pick #19 so there isn't even any temptation.


I just don't think Chance gets past the cowboys at 18. They're so desperate for O-line help. Maybe if Vacaro is still there the boys could go that way, I just don't see Chance being there. I would be ecstatic if he were the pick though.


I wonder if the Giants would consider jumping the Cowboys should the Chance still be available at the Steelers pick. I think the Steelers would be happy to move down but I don't know that the Giants would want to give up a mid-round pick in a fairly deep draft to do so. I still think its a possibility and definitely worth considering to shore up the OL
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jerseyboy257


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen1985 wrote:
fracdaddy14 wrote:
jerseyboy257 wrote:
I could see it, but I wouldn't be too happy with it. We need more talent on defense and need to address it early imo. But I will say that this would be the only pick I could tolerate if we go offense. People need to stop mocking Fluker to the Giants. Like now.


Ugh, I hear that. Chance or a Defensive stud, no other exceptions. Not a fan of Fluker, I don't know if he has the lateral movement to handle the increasing speed rushers at RT with more 3-4 and hybrid defenses. I mean, he was dominated by the undersized DE from Western Kentucky, Quanterus Smith. Big guys like him seem to be good fits at OG, but would likely struggle with leverage against quick DTs. I think he'll be decent, but I wouldn't touch him in Round 1. I hope he is gone by pick #19 so there isn't even any temptation.


I just don't think Chance gets past the cowboys at 18. They're so desperate for O-line help. Maybe if Vacaro is still there the boys could go that way, I just don't see Chance being there. I would be ecstatic if he were the pick though.

They could go Jonathon Cooper. Half of NFL teams have Cooper ranked before him anyway and a better ZBS fit
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Gmen1985


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jerseyboy257 wrote:
Gmen1985 wrote:
fracdaddy14 wrote:
jerseyboy257 wrote:
I could see it, but I wouldn't be too happy with it. We need more talent on defense and need to address it early imo. But I will say that this would be the only pick I could tolerate if we go offense. People need to stop mocking Fluker to the Giants. Like now.


Ugh, I hear that. Chance or a Defensive stud, no other exceptions. Not a fan of Fluker, I don't know if he has the lateral movement to handle the increasing speed rushers at RT with more 3-4 and hybrid defenses. I mean, he was dominated by the undersized DE from Western Kentucky, Quanterus Smith. Big guys like him seem to be good fits at OG, but would likely struggle with leverage against quick DTs. I think he'll be decent, but I wouldn't touch him in Round 1. I hope he is gone by pick #19 so there isn't even any temptation.


I just don't think Chance gets past the cowboys at 18. They're so desperate for O-line help. Maybe if Vacaro is still there the boys could go that way, I just don't see Chance being there. I would be ecstatic if he were the pick though.

They could go Jonathon Cooper. Half of NFL teams have Cooper ranked before him anyway and a better ZBS fit



Yea, I think Cooper goes before Warmack. I just don't think both of them will be there for the Cowboys to have their pick. If they're both gone by 12 it wouldn't be a total shock to me.
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have my doubts about Cooper and Warmack going in the top 12. They may be top 10 talents, but at the end of the day they still play a non-premium position. Even if they turn out to be top 5 at their position in the NFL, a top 5 guard isn't nearly as valuable as a top 5 DE, DT, WR, CB etc. Teams picking early are going to want a player that can be a difference maker on a regular basis. A guard, even a very good guard, won't always be a difference maker. That's especially true now that teams are passing more and more, and running less. All a guard needs to do is make sure he doesn't get blown up against the pass rush. And guards that can hold their ground against an interior pass rush are a dime a dozen. Who wants to spend a top 10 pick on a big paper weight?

Now, top 5 talent at 19... That's a different story. Wink
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jerseyboy257


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
I have my doubts about Cooper and Warmack going in the top 12. They may be top 10 talents, but at the end of the day they still play a non-premium position. Even if they turn out to be top 5 at their position in the NFL, a top 5 guard isn't nearly as valuable as a top 5 DE, DT, WR, CB etc. Teams picking early are going to want a player that can be a difference maker on a regular basis. A guard, even a very good guard, won't always be a difference maker. That's especially true now that teams are passing more and more, and running less. All a guard needs to do is make sure he doesn't get blown up against the pass rush. And guards that can hold their ground against an interior pass rush are a dime a dozen. Who wants to spend a top 10 pick on a big paper weight?

Now, top 5 talent at 19... That's a different story. Wink


Yeah this sums it up pretty much. Warmack and Cooper may be two of some of the best propspects in the draft, but you have players who rise during the combine of more valuable positions. Titans at 10 is a common choice, but they have too many holes to draft a guard and they should be looking to improve their DL and secondary with a top 10 pick. The chargers are a possibility if they don't trade up, but they also need secondary help and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Milliner fell to them and Xavier Rhodes is arguably even better of a prospect. Miami is in the same position as San Diego is. Carolina has too many needs including OT, S, CB, DT, WR. St Louis could take one of them, but I wouldn't be surprised if Tavon Austin or Kenny Vaccaro were available, which they'd have to pull the trigger on. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Cooper went at 18 and then Warmack at 19 or 20, but if an early team was to take Warmack, my bet would be the Jets, especially if they get the 13th pick. Rex Ryan desires a ground and pound offense, but their OL is very unimpressive and Warmack would be the perfect fit for their power/man scheme.
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Gmen1985


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
I have my doubts about Cooper and Warmack going in the top 12. They may be top 10 talents, but at the end of the day they still play a non-premium position. Even if they turn out to be top 5 at their position in the NFL, a top 5 guard isn't nearly as valuable as a top 5 DE, DT, WR, CB etc. Teams picking early are going to want a player that can be a difference maker on a regular basis. A guard, even a very good guard, won't always be a difference maker. That's especially true now that teams are passing more and more, and running less. All a guard needs to do is make sure he doesn't get blown up against the pass rush. And guards that can hold their ground against an interior pass rush are a dime a dozen. Who wants to spend a top 10 pick on a big paper weight?

Now, top 5 talent at 19... That's a different story. Wink


I'm not saying I disagree with you, I just said top 12 because I think that's where the teams with a need for a guard stop until you get to the cowboys at 18. I think a trade with Cleveland moving down to 11 or 12 with SD or Miami is a very realistic possibility. One of the two teams moving up to take a tackle and then the 2 guards go to either Buffalo, the Jets, Tennessee or Cleveland. I actually would welcome one of the guards at 19. It's obviously we're not going to a spread offense anytime soon and with defenses getting smaller but faster I think that a selection of a G at 19 can help us get back to being a dominant run team and that will allow Eli to thrive off the play action.
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jerseyboy257


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, its BPA amongst Tank Carradine, Jarvis Jones, Xavier Rhodes, Chance Warmack, and Arthur Brown. I believe 2-3 of those players will still be available and are all borderline top 10 talent. Other possible suitors that could be considered include Manti Te'o, Sylvester Williams, DJ Fluker, and Desmond Trufant, with Bjoern Werner and Alec Ogletree having slim chances as well.
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