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dkebones


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 3693
Location: Giants fan in the Seahawk's backyard...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

soooo.... the corner unit could look like Webster, Justin Tryon and.... Terrence Frederick?! Shocked

oh my...

KP not sounding terribly excited about returning to the Giants:
Quote:
Set to become an unrestricted free agent this offseason, Phillips admitted that the possibility of Sunday being his last game as a member of the Giants has "crossed my mind."

When asked if he would like to return to the Giants, the team that drafted him in the first round in 2008, Phillips grinned and laughed.

"Im just trying to get back on the field," he said.

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GEE MEN


Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mlv wrote:
GEE MEN wrote:
Here is my issue with Tuck. He has checked out mentally. He is thinking about the offseason and training camp. THERE IS A FRIGGN GAME TOMORROW AND POTENTIAL PLAYOFF BIRTH. I don't think Tuck has the fire in his belly anymore. Love the dude but he's gotta go!!! Trel was right...there is no DAWG in this defense and it starts with Tuck who seems to have quit.

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2012/12/frustrated_justin_tuck_cant_ex.html

Evil or Very Mad


Completely agree 100% regarding Tuck. He's checked out mentally, and for the most part he's been dominated by below average, mediocre RTs. PIT, GB and NO were his three good games this season - he's stunk in every other game. His on field play does not justify keeping him at his current salary figure. Next year I think the DEs will be Kiwi, JPP, Ojomo, Tracy, and no later than Day 2 Reese selects a DE.


Agreed and the problem is that this Debbie Downer attitude is contagious. I am still floored he said ask him next season in training camp for answers with a critical game only hours away. Dude has quit and that is unforgivable in a team game. Love ya Tuck but ya gotta go.
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Desperado82 wrote:
I will never defend Romo again. I'm done. We may only have a shot at the playoffs or what have you because of him, but he will NEVER put us over the hump.
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Gmen


Joined: 20 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fracdaddy14 wrote:
BroncoinGermany wrote:
How has my fellow German Kuhn done this season?


Played a bunch early do to DT injuries, but by Week 9-10 barely played. Struggled against the run, but showed a crazy ability to knock down passes at the line of scrimmage. Ended up on IR. Needs to add bulk. No guarantee for 2013 roster.

I think Kuhn played well for a 7th round rookie. Coaches seemed to like him because of his effort. I know it's said too often with white defensive players, but he has a great motor. If his knee heels properly he will be back.

With all the issues the Giants have had this year, it's pretty amazing that the worst we can do is 8-8. Maybe these last two blowouts have altered my perception a bit, but this team isn't very good right now. Let's look at all the players that we can say declined this season, whether it's because of injury or age :

Eli Manning - Love the guy, but he threw a few stinkers this year
Ahmad Bradshaw - His fire and passion didn't make up for the fact that he has the legs of a 32 year old running back
Hakeem Nicks - Foot and knee issues
Chris Snee - It's been a few years since he's played like a probowler
Justin Tuck - Same story as Snee
Osi Umenyiora - Still looks quick off the snap but hasn't been getting there enough
Michael Boley - He's lost playing time for undisclosed injuries? Sounds fishy
Corey Webster - Clearly has lost a step
Kenny Phillips - Another knee issue

^ These are the guys that carried us for years. Pretty amazing that despite all those issues, we are going to come out .500 at worst.
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fracdaddy14


Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3364
Location: Northeastern PA
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just looking at the Pro Football Focus ratings. We will have 4 DL (Canty, Joseph, JPP of course, and Osi, purely thanks to pass rushing) with positive grades, 0 LBs, and 3 DBs (Phillips, Brown, and Will Hill).

On offensive, only Diehl, David Wilson, Bear, and Locklear, cause of run blocking, are negative.

Not hard to see that it can't all be blamed on 1 player. We have several holes, and with fixing defensive holes, we can create more offensive opportunities with turnovers and field position.
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dkebones


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 3693
Location: Giants fan in the Seahawk's backyard...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GEE MEN wrote:

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2012/12/frustrated_justin_tuck_cant_ex.html


i also find it extremely interesting the tone of the comments related to Fewell. you know he can't be the lone player that is wondering about some of these schemes. it will be interesting to see how management assesses the coaching staff if they indeed do shake things up with the team.
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Acgott


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dkebones wrote:
GEE MEN wrote:

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2012/12/frustrated_justin_tuck_cant_ex.html


i also find it extremely interesting the tone of the comments related to Fewell. you know he can't be the lone player that is wondering about some of these schemes. it will be interesting to see how management assesses the coaching staff if they indeed do shake things up with the team.

The whole entire defense must be revamped.

The only players with a guaranteed spot are JPP, Prince, Big Linval
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GmenSeattle


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acgott wrote:
dkebones wrote:
GEE MEN wrote:

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2012/12/frustrated_justin_tuck_cant_ex.html


i also find it extremely interesting the tone of the comments related to Fewell. you know he can't be the lone player that is wondering about some of these schemes. it will be interesting to see how management assesses the coaching staff if they indeed do shake things up with the team.

The whole entire defense must be revamped.

The only players with a guaranteed spot are JPP, Prince, Big Linval


And Rolle and Brown.
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Gmen


Joined: 20 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I'm crazy, but I like Hosley's future in the slot.
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Xfaxtor


Joined: 14 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolle needs to stay and he needs to be a captain over Tuck...
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GmenSeattle


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xfaxtor wrote:
Rolle needs to stay and he needs to be a captain over Tuck...


I'm good with that. Also surprised at the lack of love for Brown. He's the reason we don't need KP anymore
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mlv


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GmenSeattle wrote:
Xfaxtor wrote:
Rolle needs to stay and he needs to be a captain over Tuck...


I'm good with that. Also surprised at the lack of love for Brown. He's the reason we don't need KP anymore


KP was great today, at less than 100%. He was flying all over the place. Vick made a horrible throw that happened to land in Brown's hands.
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Colsrob wrote:
Wow. You really should back off of the Eli love. If anything, Eli is a negative impact.
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GEE MEN


Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 4097
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mlv wrote:
GmenSeattle wrote:
Xfaxtor wrote:
Rolle needs to stay and he needs to be a captain over Tuck...


I'm good with that. Also surprised at the lack of love for Brown. He's the reason we don't need KP anymore


KP was great today, at less than 100%. He was flying all over the place. Vick made a horrible throw that happened to land in Brown's hands.


Agreed. Wish he were healthy. Maybe he signs on the cheap if his knees check out. Problem is that he has knees of an 80 year old.
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Desperado82 wrote:
I will never defend Romo again. I'm done. We may only have a shot at the playoffs or what have you because of him, but he will NEVER put us over the hump.
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GMENNATION


Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Posts: 161
Location: Greater New York Area
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: The Offseason Reply with quote

GEE MEN wrote:
GMENNATION wrote:
I think you all are overreacting bigtime and the changes you are proposing would make this team a 5 win team next year. Cutting Webster, Tuck, Baas, Boley, Kuhn? Moving Kiwi back to DE? Who is playing LB in this scenario?

To think all those FAs you mentioned will come here or that we will even go after them is insane... We've won based on a model of consistency and will continue to do so with just a few more changes that last offseason where we made close to none.


A couple of things. First, while I have appreciated the 2 Super Bowls that the Giants have graced us with both came at barely .500 seasons so let's not act like the Giants went in dominating with a dominating team. That right there suggests improvement is necessary. Second, the Giants have barely $2MM in cap space with what is largely a .500 team. A couple of years back Reese went on a chopping spree releasing pretty much our starting LB corp (Lavar Arrington/Carlos Emmons), our starting LT (Luke Petigout), our special teams "ace" Chad Morton, our TE Visanthe Shiancoe (who was supposed to be Shockey 2.0), our nickel CB Frank Walker, our starting K, Jay Feely, and starting RT, Bob Whittfield. That same year our starting RB (Tiki Barber) retired and we hired Spags. Safe to say that the Giants not only won more than 5 games but won the Super Bowl with a draft class that contributed mightily (7 out of Cool including Aaron Ross, Steve Smith, Jay Alford, Zak DeOssie, Michael Johnson and Ahmad Bradshaw (Adam Koets did crap).

Back in 2007 that overhaul was seen by many as an overreaction. Now I am not suggesting that if we cut everyone and this next crop of draft picks we win the Super Bowl but let's also face reality. Football years are like dog years. This Giants team got old and slow pretty fast and RGIII and the Redskins will own this division unless the Giants adjust and get younger and more speed on the roster.

Additionally, the "word around the league" is that the Giants are soft. That doesn't seem far fetched for anyone looking at how easily teams run up and down on us and how easily manhandled our OLINE gets.

Webster has lost 4 steps not 1 and now can't even locate the ball in flight. To me he's like Diehl. A beloved Giant who contributed to the team's success but not likely to shut down the other team's #1 (or 2 or 3). Webster is due $7MM next year. Pay cut? Will Webster play for the vet minimum? I doubt it. Even if he would, why would we put a CB out there that seems to be such a liability in coverage at any cost? I think Webby is gone.

Tuck. Our captain has not only been injured the past couple of years but it seems this year he also checked out mentally and early. And when he is not injured he has his hands on his knees sucking wind after the 1st defensive series and throughout the game it seems tapping out. He is due $4.5 MM next year. Perhaps he takes a pay cut. But Tuck wasn't a known quantity before the 2007 Super Bowl. Time to give Ojomo and others time to develop into the next rash of DEs.

Baas? Bad signing from the beginning. The Giants have played their best ball on the OLINE and running game when Boothe was playing center (his hiccup shotgun snaps notwithstanding). Baas usually gets manhandled and lends to the soft monniker.

Boley? Boley has played well for us. I think injuries have taken a toll on him and he also seems to have lost a step. Recently, his snaps have been significantly reduced and both he and the team suggested it wasn't due to health even when the Giants went to a 4-4-3 look. J'Quan Williams is Boley's replacement. Boley is also owed $4.25MM next year. That's a lot of money for someone who can be replaced by a younger faster version.

Kuhn? really?

Yes, getting Kiwi back to DE is the best move and I expect it to happen. The Kiwi experiment at LB hasn't reaped the type of reward expected and he is much better with his hand in the dirt than standing up.

To think the FAs I mentioned will come here or we will go after them is not as insane as you think (likely? maybe not) but look at each. TE Delanie Walker. Why is that insane? It's not like I suggested Gronkowski. Plus, SF has other big name FAs to deal with and potentially place a franchise tag on so why not consider Walker? He is a prototypical Giants type player. A player that is tough, versatile since he can play the H-back/TE position and is not only a good blocker (may even make Hynoski expendable) but the dude can line up split wide and stretch the field. He is the second coming of a Dallas Clark and someone similar to who the Giants drafted that busted (Travis Beckum). Who wouldn't want to play in NY on a team fresh off of 2 Super Bowl wins? Doesn't seem insane to me.

Gosder Cherrrrilust to play RT? Why insane? Detroit has 30 FAs (I said THIRTY!!!!) with some known quantities who they may value more than GC. They can't sign everybody. You yourself said you like the idea so why so insane?

Andre Levitre? Just last week the Bills extended their other guard who was a FA (Urbik) because he is more versatile. Will Buffalo tie up many more millions on 2 guards with other FAs to deal with? This Dude is only 26 years old. Buffalo has a couple of other known FAs to deal with as well including Jarius Byrd who they will likely franchise. Leodis McKelvin is also a FA. I think teams value DBs more than Guards. Levitre is solid not superstar and you think he wouldn't bail Buffalo to play for us a bit further south? Why so insane?

Alan Branch? Seattle has a couple of starters that are FAs as well.

The reality is that obviously there are 31 other teams likely looking at all of these players but why would the Giants have a less shot at any of these guys? When we signed Rockey, Boely and Canty was it so far fetched? None of these guys are super duper stars but in the Giants mold -- serviceable guys that address serious needs and ironically you indicated that DT was a need as well.

To quickly run through our FAs.
Marty B. I like but he has Plax syndrome. Runs lazy routes at times and dogs it. Blocking he is average and doesn't sustain blocks. I like him and his personality but we need a more solid blocker and someone who can stretch the field. Heck, Ballard seemed more of a downfield threat than Marty B. Good TE but I would take Delanie Walker 10x out of 10. Adrien Robinson can be the tree Eli looks for if he needs a tall dude.

KP was my favorite Giant for a while but Stevie Brown earned that job at FS. Even when "healthy" KP never had the impact Brown has. Unless KP signs for the vet minimum on a 1 year I'm sad to say let him walk. Trel and Brown will be the starting duo anyway.

Other than Carr (too expensive backup sign Vick to 1 year deal lol), Rocky, Coe (he plays for Dallas now), and Bear we seem to agree on everything else so doesn't seem insane.


I'm not saying some of these players aren't good options, I'm just saying gutting your whole team and expecting to improve every position you cut (or atleast get an equal player for cheaper) through FA is unrealistic... A couple pickups, maybe. But with our cap situation, it would be a huge risk to gut a team and try to rebuild through FA... I agree with dumping some contracts of players no longer effective but we have to be smart about it... show me another time in the last few years where teams got 3+ truly impact players through FA... we are a 9-7 team, not a 6-10 team

The Eagles tried this method a couple seasons ago and got BURNED
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minutemancl


Joined: 06 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boley is good as gone, as is Webster. It's time to bring in some young talent to the defensive side of the ball. Alec Ogletree in the first, Logan Ryan in the second.
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aceinthehouse wrote:
But why not maintain that dominance? You guys were there...

Let me give you my personal opinion, on what I think has happened.
It all started with the release of the coke machine in Brandon Jacobs.
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Gmen


Joined: 20 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: The Offseason Reply with quote

GMENNATION wrote:
I'm not saying some of these players aren't good options, I'm just saying gutting your whole team and expecting to improve every position you cut (or atleast get an equal player for cheaper) through FA is unrealistic... A couple pickups, maybe. But with our cap situation, it would be a huge risk to gut a team and try to rebuild through FA... I agree with dumping some contracts of players no longer effective but we have to be smart about it... show me another time in the last few years where teams got 3+ truly impact players through FA... we are a 9-7 team, not a 6-10 team

The Eagles tried this method a couple seasons ago and got BURNED

I know it's been a few years, but didn't we get Plaxico Burress, Antonio Pierce and Kareem McKenzie in the same offseason?

Even if we wanted to, I don't think we could go out and spend big bucks in free agency. If we free up cap space by cutting veterans, guys like JPP, Nicks and Cruz still need extensions. We'll have to hope Reese can work his magic and get another Kawika Mitchell, Deon Grant or Stevie Brown type of steal in free agency.
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- Ernie Accorsi scouting report of Eli
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