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Gatoradus


Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 2221
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It actually makes more sense to keep mendy. Haley and tomlin threw him under the bus again. I'm starting to wonder if kirby wilson is capable of coaching the rbs, those players (one is 6th round and others are later) but they weren't players with questionable running game. They had bad history (redman's troubled high school, dwyer's add, and batch's acls) oh... rainey's incident with his ex.

Those guys came to us with real talent, haven't seen enough of consistency from them.

Arguably O-line is to blame, yes but willie parker once ran over 1,300 with sean mahan at center! Bad O-line or not, you come to a professional league, an expectation has to be held regardless.

Mendy is still our best running back, just very inconsistent.
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shawn l brown


Joined: 22 Jan 2010
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Location: cleveland ohio us
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
For some reason, I think he will be back.

Wont be shocked either way, but I think he will.

If we resign Mendy, it would just depend on the type of RBs that are available to us in the later rounds. No way it makes sense to spend a early or mid round pick on a RB if we keep Mendy. Id take a late one only if it was good value for a speedy scat back type that could challenge Rainey for a roster spot. Otherwise, no.


Im curious 43 what are your concerns on Montee Ball. I'm not saying you're wrong, but see more upside than downside, and am looking for the flaws/concerns that you see. I'd like to magnify those concerns for myself to see if I'm missing something which is entirely possible. I have a potential value in mind and it varies but seems nowhere as low as yours.


I just said Id be furious if we took him in the top 3 rounds.....Id be mad if we took pretty much any RB in the top 3 rounds this year.

My main two issues with us drafting him early...besides the fact that we have far bigger needs....1) he has a TON of milage on him already and b) he is too much like the runners we have now.

Seriously...for as much as I hear people talking about how we need a RB that can get around the edge, Ball isnt that guy in the NFL. He may be able to do it in college against lesser athletes, but not the NFL.

He does have really good vision, something none of our backs since young Jerome Bettis have had, but I still dont like him in the first 3 rounds.

Oh....and while I would never totally dismiss a player for this....Big Ten running backs dont exactly have the best track record, and Wisconsin RBs always seem to have success there but fade away quickly in the NFL. Again thats not a point to dismiss him, but it is worth noting along with my other points.


So you wouldn't take E. Lacey in the 2nd round?


He is worth a 2nd round pick...but would I take him there? No.

Im sorry, I just see no justification for taking a RB that early, even if we do lose Mendy.

Im not going to argue with those who do think we should spend a 2nd on a RB, because everyone already has their minds made up. Nothing will change my mind about that though.

All Ill add is that no RB is going to have alot of success behind this line. IMO, there is no reason to spend much on RB until that is addressed.
I agree then why not draft Chance Warmack, and you will have the three nice interior front.
I do think you are on to something about are Tackles after i went back and watch the tapes.
I love Chance Warmack
and him on the left and DD on the right with Pouncey in the middle, and Gilbert on the right and,
Starks on the left would be a great line to run behind.IMO then i would take Lacy in the second.
Remember a running game is a Defense best friend it keeps are fresh When are offence can jam it down there throats.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 50397
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatoradus wrote:
It actually makes more sense to keep mendy. Haley and tomlin threw him under the bus again. I'm starting to wonder if kirby wilson is capable of coaching the rbs, those players (one is 6th round and others are later) but they weren't players with questionable running game. They had bad history (redman's troubled high school, dwyer's add, and batch's acls) oh... rainey's incident with his ex.

Those guys came to us with real talent, haven't seen enough of consistency from them.

Arguably O-line is to blame, yes but willie parker once ran over 1,300 with sean mahan at center! Bad O-line or not, you come to a professional league, an expectation has to be held regardless.

Mendy is still our best running back, just very inconsistent.


For one, explain how Tomlin and Haley threw Mendy under the bus.

Secondly, its pretty unfair to question Kirby Wilson. You guys complain about our RBs when our RB depth is better than most teams. Redman and Dwyer may not be feature back quality, but they may be the best 2 & 3 in the league. Redman never goes down on first contact and Dwyer is capable, even if unspectacular. Our backup RBs have perfromed most of the time. Our OLine 90 percent of the time is the reason the run game is stalled. Hard for those backs to do anything when they are getting hit as soon as they touch the ball.

Also, Willie Parker ran for 1300 yards behind Alan Faneca, who was still the best run blocker in the league at the time. Notice how our run game hasnt been the same since he left? Even Mahan did suck, Faneca was able to pick up alot of his slack in the run game.

And are you seriously saying that our backs should put up yards even with poor blocking? Because that makes no sense.
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JustPlainNasty


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 7099
Location: Las Vegas
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shawn l brown wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
For some reason, I think he will be back.

Wont be shocked either way, but I think he will.

If we resign Mendy, it would just depend on the type of RBs that are available to us in the later rounds. No way it makes sense to spend a early or mid round pick on a RB if we keep Mendy. Id take a late one only if it was good value for a speedy scat back type that could challenge Rainey for a roster spot. Otherwise, no.


Im curious 43 what are your concerns on Montee Ball. I'm not saying you're wrong, but see more upside than downside, and am looking for the flaws/concerns that you see. I'd like to magnify those concerns for myself to see if I'm missing something which is entirely possible. I have a potential value in mind and it varies but seems nowhere as low as yours.


I just said Id be furious if we took him in the top 3 rounds.....Id be mad if we took pretty much any RB in the top 3 rounds this year.

My main two issues with us drafting him early...besides the fact that we have far bigger needs....1) he has a TON of milage on him already and b) he is too much like the runners we have now.

Seriously...for as much as I hear people talking about how we need a RB that can get around the edge, Ball isnt that guy in the NFL. He may be able to do it in college against lesser athletes, but not the NFL.

He does have really good vision, something none of our backs since young Jerome Bettis have had, but I still dont like him in the first 3 rounds.

Oh....and while I would never totally dismiss a player for this....Big Ten running backs dont exactly have the best track record, and Wisconsin RBs always seem to have success there but fade away quickly in the NFL. Again thats not a point to dismiss him, but it is worth noting along with my other points.


So you wouldn't take E. Lacey in the 2nd round?


He is worth a 2nd round pick...but would I take him there? No.

Im sorry, I just see no justification for taking a RB that early, even if we do lose Mendy.

Im not going to argue with those who do think we should spend a 2nd on a RB, because everyone already has their minds made up. Nothing will change my mind about that though.

All Ill add is that no RB is going to have alot of success behind this line. IMO, there is no reason to spend much on RB until that is addressed.
I agree then why not draft Chance Warmack, and you will have the three nice interior front.
I do think you are on to something about are Tackles after i went back and watch the tapes.
I love Chance Warmack
and him on the left and DD on the right with Pouncey in the middle, and Gilbert on the right and,
Starks on the left would be a great line to run behind.IMO then i would take Lacy in the second.
Remember a running game is a Defense best friend it keeps are fresh When are offence can jam it down there throats.


Im with you but Im taking Larry Warford, he & Tyler Eiffert are the two players in this draft that I am most comfortable with. Warmack is not far behind for me but Warford is more mobile and plays with a nastiness.
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Gatoradus


Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 2221
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm thinking of kemoeatu-hartwig combo, my bad.

Yes actually I believe the lack of focus is on kirby wilson. All rbs plays like they are feature backs but arent- I believe that within the roles, they have to restrict the... attempt to score every time. They all claim they got each other back but that's just being a sport, doesn't mean they play within their roles. Haley misused some of players as well. As whole running game, you can really point the finger at everybody.

Upcoming season, supposely we keep mendenhall, do you truly think dwyer and redman both are comfortable with being "50/50 back-up running backs"? That's one reason why I believe Redman may leave. Our running game fell when all three were healthy and playing together, didn't you notice that? The roles have to be clear and play individuals within their roles, don't exceed or overdo it.
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shawn l brown


Joined: 22 Jan 2010
Posts: 857
Location: cleveland ohio us
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustPlainNasty wrote:
shawn l brown wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
For some reason, I think he will be back.

Wont be shocked either way, but I think he will.

If we resign Mendy, it would just depend on the type of RBs that are available to us in the later rounds. No way it makes sense to spend a early or mid round pick on a RB if we keep Mendy. Id take a late one only if it was good value for a speedy scat back type that could challenge Rainey for a roster spot. Otherwise, no.


Im curious 43 what are your concerns on Montee Ball. I'm not saying you're wrong, but see more upside than downside, and am looking for the flaws/concerns that you see. I'd like to magnify those concerns for myself to see if I'm missing something which is entirely possible. I have a potential value in mind and it varies but seems nowhere as low as yours.


I just said Id be furious if we took him in the top 3 rounds.....Id be mad if we took pretty much any RB in the top 3 rounds this year.

My main two issues with us drafting him early...besides the fact that we have far bigger needs....1) he has a TON of milage on him already and b) he is too much like the runners we have now.

Seriously...for as much as I hear people talking about how we need a RB that can get around the edge, Ball isnt that guy in the NFL. He may be able to do it in college against lesser athletes, but not the NFL.

He does have really good vision, something none of our backs since young Jerome Bettis have had, but I still dont like him in the first 3 rounds.

Oh....and while I would never totally dismiss a player for this....Big Ten running backs dont exactly have the best track record, and Wisconsin RBs always seem to have success there but fade away quickly in the NFL. Again thats not a point to dismiss him, but it is worth noting along with my other points.


So you wouldn't take E. Lacey in the 2nd round?


He is worth a 2nd round pick...but would I take him there? No.

Im sorry, I just see no justification for taking a RB that early, even if we do lose Mendy.

Im not going to argue with those who do think we should spend a 2nd on a RB, because everyone already has their minds made up. Nothing will change my mind about that though.

All Ill add is that no RB is going to have alot of success behind this line. IMO, there is no reason to spend much on RB until that is addressed.
I agree then why not draft Chance Warmack, and you will have the three nice interior front.
I do think you are on to something about are Tackles after i went back and watch the tapes.
I love Chance Warmack
and him on the left and DD on the right with Pouncey in the middle, and Gilbert on the right and,
Starks on the left would be a great line to run behind.IMO then i would take Lacy in the second.
Remember a running game is a Defense best friend it keeps are fresh When are offence can jam it down there throats.


Im with you but Im taking Larry Warford, he & Tyler Eiffert are the two players in this draft that I am most comfortable with. Warmack is not far behind for me but Warford is more mobile and plays with a nastiness.
I hear you i like him to but i think Warmack is a little better setting up his blocks.
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The Curtain


Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 568
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Gatoradus wrote:
It actually makes more sense to keep mendy. Haley and tomlin threw him under the bus again. I'm starting to wonder if kirby wilson is capable of coaching the rbs, those players (one is 6th round and others are later) but they weren't players with questionable running game. They had bad history (redman's troubled high school, dwyer's add, and batch's acls) oh... rainey's incident with his ex.

Those guys came to us with real talent, haven't seen enough of consistency from them.

Arguably O-line is to blame, yes but willie parker once ran over 1,300 with sean mahan at center! Bad O-line or not, you come to a professional league, an expectation has to be held regardless.

Mendy is still our best running back, just very inconsistent.


For one, explain how Tomlin and Haley threw Mendy under the bus.

Secondly, its pretty unfair to question Kirby Wilson. You guys complain about our RBs when our RB depth is better than most teams. Redman and Dwyer may not be feature back quality, but they may be the best 2 & 3 in the league. Redman never goes down on first contact and Dwyer is capable, even if unspectacular. Our backup RBs have perfromed most of the time. Our OLine 90 percent of the time is the reason the run game is stalled. Hard for those backs to do anything when they are getting hit as soon as they touch the ball.

Also, Willie Parker ran for 1300 yards behind Alan Faneca, who was still the best run blocker in the league at the time. Notice how our run game hasnt been the same since he left? Even Mahan did suck, Faneca was able to pick up alot of his slack in the run game.

And are you seriously saying that our backs should put up yards even with poor blocking? Because that makes no sense.


It wasn't just the blocking with Willie Parker, he was a home run threat. None of our RB's are. They all lack the speed except Rainey, but he's got a slew of other problems that make his speed useless.

I don't think our RB's should be having 1300 yard seasons behind this line, but I definitely think the production could and should be better. Lets just hope that Pouncey/DeCastro become a beast of a combination, and see what happens next year.
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MightyJoeYoung


Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 2990
Location: Wakefield, England
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We don't need a high pick running back and I'll tell you for why.

Next year DeCastro should get a full offseason and season. Next year is almost his proper rookie season. In addition to this, Mike Adams will be back. He struggles in Pass Pro but that will improve and his run blocking was dominant at times.

The both of them on the same side should open up some holes that weren't there this year a lot of the time.

Then you have DeCastro pulling to the left and opening things up that way.

Colon's run blocking was very good this year but I hope they cut him and Foster can compete with Gilbert and Beachum at LG. Foster is dependable and underrated, if Gilbert found his testicles I feel he could be a quality guard and Beachum definitely showed he has at the least, got a future here as a solid back up at Guard and Tackle.

I'm not sure I will ever trust Adams on the blind side but feel he could be a dominant RT.

I hope they keep bringing Starks back until he shows he can't do it anymore because he has been really quite dependable at LT for a long time for us. If he stays another two years, maybe Adams will have developed his Pass Pro enough to take over.

I'm not at this moment in time, a supporter of the idea of drafting a Tackle in the first, unless it is Joeckel. But, if Adams does not show solid improvement in Pass Pro I may be tempted next year.

I hope that we go after Chance Warmack though. I feel like at the spot we will be drafting, he is the closest to a sure thing in terms of filling definite needs and having elite ability that should materialise in the NFL.

Starks, Warmack, Pouncey, DeCastro, Adams should definitely get the job done in the run blocking department. I mean really, that should be the best line in the league

Overall, I feel that the offence's inability to put up points is what has cost us this year, even more so than a lack of Pass Rush on defence (though that is the second biggest issue). I think fixing the run game would be the biggest boost to the offence (over getting more receivers) and that is why I want Warmack.
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Gatoradus


Joined: 24 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

exactly.

We don't have a pedigree of left guard that we missed with alan faneca but I'll take this combo of 5 currently O-linemen (if mike adams didn't go out on IR) over the combo of O-line that we have years ago.
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Gatoradus


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I wouldn't invest all 1st rounds at interior linemen.

Long-term wise the investment financially it doesn't make any sense. There were a reason saints had to let Carl Nicks go. Same for many teams, including Falcons.

The true work of a GM is to draft a player in first round that not only wll benefit us long-term, but the bank will be open for this player in order to keep him.

Supposely our currently O-linemen remain intact, you are talking about somewhere between 25-30 millions for just 5 O-linemen... per year! That's the 1st round investment. Money talk, mightyjoeyoung.
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MightyJoeYoung


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It isn't a cookie cutter thing like that though.

Ben's salary will be coming off the books around the time these guys will be getting the big money. Same with a lot of other veterans. Leftwich, Batch, Troy, Clark, Taylor, Deebo, Keisel, Hampton, Cotchery, Miller, Foote, Warren, Will Allen, Mundy and Colon. These guys salaries will all be gone most likely by the time the 3 of them are all on second contracts (Ben's probably will still be on the books at the time).

The money has to go somewhere and remember the TV money will be kicking in too. I'm just saying, it's not beyond possibility.
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Mason Storm


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Location: Hmm fire Tomlin of course y didnt i think of that oh yea because thats stupid.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just do not like Mendy he does too much dancing. I think the problem with the line is cohesion they are down to their third string tackle. Lines need to play together and they haven't been able to do so.

I do think that there are holes, but the backs aren't hitting them. When Dwyer. & Redman hit the hole they don't have the speed to hit the hole before it closes. And getting to the edge you can forget it.

I think the lack of success running the football seriously exposed them. What I saw with the quick passing was kinda like what New England does but our receivers are not disciplined enough to run sharp enough routes.

Also were going to have to take a tight end early as well.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Curtain wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
Gatoradus wrote:
It actually makes more sense to keep mendy. Haley and tomlin threw him under the bus again. I'm starting to wonder if kirby wilson is capable of coaching the rbs, those players (one is 6th round and others are later) but they weren't players with questionable running game. They had bad history (redman's troubled high school, dwyer's add, and batch's acls) oh... rainey's incident with his ex.

Those guys came to us with real talent, haven't seen enough of consistency from them.

Arguably O-line is to blame, yes but willie parker once ran over 1,300 with sean mahan at center! Bad O-line or not, you come to a professional league, an expectation has to be held regardless.

Mendy is still our best running back, just very inconsistent.


For one, explain how Tomlin and Haley threw Mendy under the bus.

Secondly, its pretty unfair to question Kirby Wilson. You guys complain about our RBs when our RB depth is better than most teams. Redman and Dwyer may not be feature back quality, but they may be the best 2 & 3 in the league. Redman never goes down on first contact and Dwyer is capable, even if unspectacular. Our backup RBs have perfromed most of the time. Our OLine 90 percent of the time is the reason the run game is stalled. Hard for those backs to do anything when they are getting hit as soon as they touch the ball.

Also, Willie Parker ran for 1300 yards behind Alan Faneca, who was still the best run blocker in the league at the time. Notice how our run game hasnt been the same since he left? Even Mahan did suck, Faneca was able to pick up alot of his slack in the run game.

And are you seriously saying that our backs should put up yards even with poor blocking? Because that makes no sense.


It wasn't just the blocking with Willie Parker, he was a home run threat. None of our RB's are. They all lack the speed except Rainey, but he's got a slew of other problems that make his speed useless.

I don't think our RB's should be having 1300 yard seasons behind this line, but I definitely think the production could and should be better. Lets just hope that Pouncey/DeCastro become a beast of a combination, and see what happens next year.


Parker was nothing special either though. He had the home run threat, but he really wasnt quick or shifty at all. He had great straight line speed....that was it. Kind of like Rainey...but I agree Rainey will never be a good RB.

Until we find an anchor for the interior OLine, I dont see it getting better. Thought Pouncey would be it, but he is inconsistent. Now Im hoping for DeCastro.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatoradus wrote:
Actually I wouldn't invest all 1st rounds at interior linemen.

Long-term wise the investment financially it doesn't make any sense. There were a reason saints had to let Carl Nicks go. Same for many teams, including Falcons.

The true work of a GM is to draft a player in first round that not only wll benefit us long-term, but the bank will be open for this player in order to keep him.

Supposely our currently O-linemen remain intact, you are talking about somewhere between 25-30 millions for just 5 O-linemen... per year! That's the 1st round investment. Money talk, mightyjoeyoung.


Just because they are first round picks doesnt mean that will warrant huge contracts when their rookie contracts are up.

I do agree, however, that we shouldnt spend another first rounder on an OG. If the value is great, okay....but I certainly wouldnt target one that early. Too many other needs.
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MightyJoeYoung


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for the record, I would prefer an elite pass rusher, I'm just not sure one will be there where we pick
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