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Redskins move along without Brian Orakpo, Fred Davis
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:48 pm    Post subject: Redskins move along without Brian Orakpo, Fred Davis Reply with quote

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/24/daly-redskins-churn-along-without-brian-orakpo-fre/

When we lost Orakpo to a torn pectoral muscle in Week 2, and then Fred Davis’ to a torn Achilles in Week 7 we were wondering how in the world we would compete. We chalked it up as the 5th lost season in a row and we'd just be developing the young guys and hoping to see them succeed. We've survived and improved throughout the season actually, but how did we do it?

Obviously Rob Jackson and Logan Paulsen have steeped up, but its been more than just them.

Quote:
It’s just another reminder that, in the 53-man game of pro football, few players are truly irreplaceable — a lot fewer than we think. Teams win, for the most part, not individuals. Why, the Redskins got by without Robert Griffin III, the center of their solar system, two Sundays ago. The offense might have looked a little different, a little more orthodox, with Kirk Cousins running it, but it was still plenty productive.


As Dan Daly says in the article it doesn't mean the Redskins are better without Davis and Orakpo. The Next Man Up Has come to DC and survived. We have a better 53 man roster than in years past and its showed because we've won games without our stars all year long. We truly are a TEAM this year and I couldn't be more proud.

In the future Snyder, Allen and Mike Shanahan need to consider how best to spend the cap $. They have to decide which players are truly important to us winning. we havent been good at this in the past and it has showed. The better we get at spreading the wealth around, making every dollar count, means the closer we can get to winning a Super Bowl again.
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shanahan and Allen have actually done a remarkable job in making this team competitive even though $18 million of our cap money was stolen in the off-season.

Part of the reason for this is the Value that Shanahan places on depth and reserve players. If he wasn't so aggressive in trying to make sure that all our positions were shored up with adequate depth then Rob Jackson would not be here to make some great plays in the last few weeks, Kirk Cousins would not have won us two games when he had to step in, our WR's would not be a threat past Garcon, and I would argue that Alfred Morris would not even have been drafted on most teams with Helu, Royster, and Hightower returning...But Shanahan constantly and relentlessly evaluates all positions, and doesn't hesitate when he sees talent that could help the team.

No GM and coach hit on all draft picks and FA's. It just doesn't happen. But Shanahan and Allen's "never satisfied" approach to the roster should keep us more competitive than our strategies of the past
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RSkinGM


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more year of Cap Hell,, I'm not expecting any relief. Orakpo has to prove he is an elite player and can stay healthy in his last contract year. Davis -- with the salary and the injury--not likely to be back.
Next year , we need a couple of decent F A's and another great draft to keep this train going .
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RSkinGM wrote:
One more year of Cap Hell,, I'm not expecting any relief. Orakpo has to prove he is an elite player and can stay healthy in his last contract year. Davis -- with the salary and the injury--not likely to be back.
Next year , we need a couple of decent F A's and another great draft to keep this train going .
i think with Davis it will depend on the cost. With his off the field troubles of the past, coming off the injury, and him probably wanting to spend his career with RG3, we could get him at a real bargain. I really think that will be the case and Davis has a strong chance of re-signing here.
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan Daly has this wrong.

--> The Redskins offense without Garcon struggles.
--> Kyle Shanahan has had to be creative because of the loss of Fred Davis. Paulsen plays like a third string TE.
--> The Redskins have struggled to create pressure without Orakpo.
--> It's taken 3 players playing ROLB for the defense to manage.
--> Merriweather's impact in one games demonstrates the need for a star player in the secondary.

You can manage, temporarily, when you have strong depth and great coaching, but you cannot sustain that success against great players/teams. Dez and Witten are going to butcher this secondary next week; and it is a better unit than last year.

Logan Paulsen, DeJon Gomes, Jordan Pugh, Richard Crawford, Lorenzo Alexander, Rob Jackson, Keenan Robinson, Jarvis Jenkins, Doug Worthington and Aldrick Robinson have been given the opportunity to demostrate their abilities in game.

We can discern that a reserve OLB is needed.
We can discern that Lorenzo and Keenan are strong enough depth at ILB.
We can discern that Crawford has taken Banks spot in the future.
We can discern that Paulsen is a liability as a starter, and lacks upside.
We can discern that Aldrick Robinson has the potential to develop into a valuable role player.
We can discern that Jarvis Jenkins may eventually become a starting DE, but not yet.
We can discern that they believe Gomes is a run-stopping SS only.

They learned a lot about their depth this year, and we saw player-specific packages to reflect each players strengths and weaknesses. For instance, using three safeties opposite Madieu Williams (or DeAngelo Hall), depending on the formation. They used three ROLBs and minimized the playing time of Rob Jackson to primarily running downs. They benched Banks for good. They played Baker a lot.

The injuries to key players has given Shanahan an easier task of identifying the roster moves he needs to make in FA, and what positions they need to focus on in the draft. It presents the coaching staff with more game-time film to make an accurate projection of each players ability to contribute in the future, which will create a stronger depth/support system for the starters.

Make no mistake, you need stars to win in this league.

Romo and Dez Bryant (mostly the latter) have carried the Cowboys to a win-and-in situation. It is Dez Bryant's emergence as a star player that has enabled this, and both he and Romo are putting on a clinic despite bad coaching and a horrid offensive line.

If the Redskins are going to be a perennial playoff contender, they need a couple of star defensive players. Maybe Orakpo (I think he is) and Merriweather can be those players, but the Redskins will not compete for the SB until they have more stars.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
Dan Daly has this wrong.

--> The Redskins offense without Garcon struggles.
--> Kyle Shanahan has had to be creative because of the loss of Fred Davis. Paulsen plays like a third string TE.
--> The Redskins have struggled to create pressure without Orakpo.
--> It's taken 3 players playing ROLB for the defense to manage.
--> Merriweather's impact in one games demonstrates the need for a star player in the secondary.

You can manage, temporarily, when you have strong depth and great coaching, but you cannot sustain that success against great players/teams. Dez and Witten are going to butcher this secondary next week; and it is a better unit than last year.

Logan Paulsen, DeJon Gomes, Jordan Pugh, Richard Crawford, Lorenzo Alexander, Rob Jackson, Keenan Robinson, Jarvis Jenkins, Doug Worthington and Aldrick Robinson have been given the opportunity to demostrate their abilities in game.

We can discern that a reserve OLB is needed.
We can discern that Lorenzo and Keenan are strong enough depth at ILB.
We can discern that Crawford has taken Banks spot in the future.
We can discern that Paulsen is a liability as a starter, and lacks upside.
We can discern that Aldrick Robinson has the potential to develop into a valuable role player.
We can discern that Jarvis Jenkins may eventually become a starting DE, but not yet.
We can discern that they believe Gomes is a run-stopping SS only.

They learned a lot about their depth this year, and we saw player-specific packages to reflect each players strengths and weaknesses. For instance, using three safeties opposite Madieu Williams (or DeAngelo Hall), depending on the formation. They used three ROLBs and minimized the playing time of Rob Jackson to primarily running downs. They benched Banks for good. They played Baker a lot.

The injuries to key players has given Shanahan an easier task of identifying the roster moves he needs to make in FA, and what positions they need to focus on in the draft. It presents the coaching staff with more game-time film to make an accurate projection of each players ability to contribute in the future, which will create a stronger depth/support system for the starters.

Make no mistake, you need stars to win in this league.

Romo and Dez Bryant (mostly the latter) have carried the Cowboys to a win-and-in situation. It is Dez Bryant's emergence as a star player that has enabled this, and both he and Romo are putting on a clinic despite bad coaching and a horrid offensive line.

If the Redskins are going to be a perennial playoff contender, they need a couple of star defensive players. Maybe Orakpo (I think he is) and Merriweather can be those players, but the Redskins will not compete for the SB until they have more stars.
no doubt we are better with Garcon, Meriweather, Davis and Orakpo. we've still been successful despite missing them. Without Garçon the offense was still putting up a lot of yards, the D hadn't found the right mix though so we lost games. Other Wrs stepped up except for 1 game since garçons injury.

We don't have other stars on offense like rg3?

They weren't playing Rob Jackson on 3rd downs much till after the bye week, since the bye week he, Kerrigan, Fletcher, Riley and the D have played a lot better and have made key plays putting us in the position we are in now. Rob has played well despite how you constantly dismiss him as a factor. He has 3 sacks in the last 4 games, he has 3 ints and has made Key tackles for loss. I hope he's back, he's a good back up to have but we may lose him because of the skills he's shown this year, especially when the coaches play him on 3rd downs.

Isn't Kerrigan a star? Isn't Fletcher a star?

We won in Cle w/o Rg3.

Paulsen has played well and stepped in for Davis. For sure we don't get game changing plays there but Paulsen is a steady TE and teams have won superbowls with similar players see the giants with Ballard.

I don't think you are giving our back ups enough credit for keeping this train rolling despite the starters and stars being injured.

Forbath has been a star. We've had so many guys step up. I think they need their just due. Not to be treated like they don't matter and they aren't the key reasons to why we are in the position we are in.
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
no doubt we are better with Garcon, Meriweather, Davis and Orakpo. we've still been successful despite missing them. Without Garçon the offense was still putting up a lot of yards, the D hadn't found the right mix though so we lost games. Other Wrs stepped up except for 1 game since garçons injury.

We don't have other stars on offense like rg3?

They weren't playing Rob Jackson on 3rd downs much till after the bye week, since the bye week he, Kerrigan, Fletcher, Riley and the D have played a lot better and have made key plays putting us in the position we are in now. Rob has played well despite how you constantly dismiss him as a factor. He has 3 sacks in the last 4 games, he has 3 ints and has made Key tackles for loss. I hope he's back, he's a good back up to have but we may lose him because of the skills he's shown this year, especially when the coaches play him on 3rd downs.

Isn't Kerrigan a star? Isn't Fletcher a star?

We won in Cle w/o Rg3.

Paulsen has played well and stepped in for Davis. For sure we don't get game changing plays there but Paulsen is a steady TE and teams have won superbowls with similar players see the giants with Ballard.

I don't think you are giving our back ups enough credit for keeping this train rolling despite the starters and stars being injured.

Forbath has been a star. We've had so many guys step up. I think they need their just due. Not to be treated like they don't matter and they aren't the key reasons to why we are in the position we are in.


EXCELLENT post, turtle. While I understand footy's point and agree that you need stars in this league, as you mentioned our backups have been instrumental in putting US in the position we are in. Thanks for illustrating that.
Quote:

As Dan Daly says in the article it doesn't mean the Redskins are better without Davis and Orakpo. The Next Man Up Has come to DC and survived


Even guys like Evan Royster and Hurt have played Big when needed. Doesn't mean they are BETTER than the starters, but they have stepped up when called upon
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
no doubt we are better with Garcon, Meriweather, Davis and Orakpo. we've still been successful despite missing them. Without Garçon the offense was still putting up a lot of yards, the D hadn't found the right mix though so we lost games. Other Wrs stepped up except for 1 game since garçons injury.

We don't have other stars on offense like rg3?

They weren't playing Rob Jackson on 3rd downs much till after the bye week, since the bye week he, Kerrigan, Fletcher, Riley and the D have played a lot better and have made key plays putting us in the position we are in now. Rob has played well despite how you constantly dismiss him as a factor. He has 3 sacks in the last 4 games, he has 3 ints and has made Key tackles for loss. I hope he's back, he's a good back up to have but we may lose him because of the skills he's shown this year, especially when the coaches play him on 3rd downs.

Isn't Kerrigan a star? Isn't Fletcher a star?

We won in Cle w/o Rg3.

Paulsen has played well and stepped in for Davis. For sure we don't get game changing plays there but Paulsen is a steady TE and teams have won superbowls with similar players see the giants with Ballard.

I don't think you are giving our back ups enough credit for keeping this train rolling despite the starters and stars being injured.

Forbath has been a star. We've had so many guys step up. I think they need their just due. Not to be treated like they don't matter and they aren't the key reasons to why we are in the position we are in.


1 - Rob Jackson's playing time has decreased, and Lorenzo's has increased. Either way, there are no options except Rob Jackson, which is the problem. I feel as if Bryan Kehl could have been just as effective in a similar situation.

2 - Neither Fletcher or Kerrigan are stars. And please don't tell me you actually believe Forbath should be considered a star.

3 - Paulsen has dropped some easy catches. Yes, we saw that from Sleepy Fred in the past, but not of late and he is actually a threat to opposing defenses. I was harsh calling Paulsen a #3 because he's a fringe #2. If Niles Paul keeps his specialized role, they should be thinking about drafting a contingency plan for Sleepy Fred.

4 - We won in Cleveland without RG3 because the Browns stacked the box and asked Kirk Cousins to beat them. Kyle Shanahan called a great game and put his 2nd string rookie in a great position to win. A good game by Cousins does not diminish the impact of RG3.

5 - The Redskins are 8-1 with Pierre Garcon in the line-up. Against Tampa, Atlanta, and Philly he was essentially a decoy and not an impact player. When he has been healthy, he has made significant impact on team performance.

I gave the depth their due, but Daly's essential point is wrong: Stars make a major difference in this league.

You need a well-built team around those players in the event they get injured or decline rapidly. The Ravens defense was what it was because of Ray Lewis and Ed Reed. The Tampa defense was what it was because of Derrick Brooks and Warren Sapp. The 9ers are great because of Justin Smith, P-Willis, Aldon Smith and Navarro Bowman.

The Redskins have done a nice job regrouping, and their running game and RG3's play/leadership has enabled a nice winning stretch, but that's not sustainable over the long-run. Give the back-ups their due, but they still look like back-ups - it's the coaches that should be getting the credit because of their adjustments.

If they want to be SB contenders, they need stars. They won't go anywhere in the playoffs this year because they do not have stars on the defensive side of the ball to win them a game on their own.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have the wrong impression of the article Footy.

For one, I've read plenty of articles from all the redskins beat reporters that say in the beginning Hasslett was not playing Rob Jackson on 3rd downs. They talked over the bye because Rob wanted to have a chance to prove he could play 3rd downs and provide the pressure and we've had more pressure since then and he's played better.

Quote:
Again, this doesn’t mean the Redskins are a better team minus Davis and Orakpo. It just means their absence hasn’t been as damaging as fans might have feared. The world, in other words, has gone on — as it always does in the Next Man Up League.
this is daly's conclusion and whole point and I agree with him. It doesn't mean the redskins don't need their stars or need more to be a great team in the future that is always a contender. what he was saying is that others have stepped up and gotten this team to where it is. He is giving props to them, not saying Orakpo and others aren't needed. The next man up has played well enough in DC for us to be in playoff contention and not too many thought that would happen in late sept or oct.

His other point is about this being the ultimate team game. One player doesn't mean as much if the entire team is playing well together and it's true of this years redskins. All 53 are playing great together and as one team and this hasn't happened since 07.
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you get my point turtle.

Stars make a difference. The only reason the Redskins have been able to deal with the losses of Orakpo and Davis is because their star came to play: RG3.

The Redskins are winning because RG3 went beastmode and Garcon came back from injury. His leadership and on-field play gave the Redskins teams the drive to keep winning. Without that star player, the Redskins do not make the playoffs. The performance of the replacements has been enough to manage.

Daly wants to give credit to the little guy, and that's admirable, but it's our star that got us to the playoffs, with Trent protecting his blindside and Garcon as his go-to.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
The Redskins are winning because RG3 went beastmode and Garcon came back from injury. His leadership and on-field play gave the Redskins teams the drive to keep winning. Without that star player, the Redskins do not make the playoffs. The performance of the replacements has been enough to manage.

Daly wants to give credit to the little guy, and that's admirable, but it's our star that got us to the playoffs, with Trent protecting his blindside and Garcon as his go-to.


I get what you are saying, footy, and I agree with it except for one thing: no mention of Morris? Really?

I said going into this season that our secondary was a flaming pile. We've seen it to be true. However, if we can fix that and get our guys back, we're in pretty good shape going forward because of the depth that this staff has curried. Will be as effective as if we had our stars? Most likely not. That said, I'm not as worried about the drop off as I once was.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
I don't think you get my point turtle.

Stars make a difference. The only reason the Redskins have been able to deal with the losses of Orakpo and Davis is because their star came to play: RG3.

The Redskins are winning because RG3 went beastmode and Garcon came back from injury. His leadership and on-field play gave the Redskins teams the drive to keep winning. Without that star player, the Redskins do not make the playoffs. The performance of the replacements has been enough to manage.

Daly wants to give credit to the little guy, and that's admirable, but it's our star that got us to the playoffs, with Trent protecting his blindside and Garcon as his go-to.
i do get your point, I know we need stars and super stars. Daly has mentioned that as well. We've also won without some of them at times and yeah he's giving credit to the little guy.

Why is that you have a problem when little guys get credit and not just the stars? It's funny because you love when Kory L gets credit but god for bid someone give love to Rob Jackson and Logan Paulsen, geeze that's just the end of the world for you. Rolling Eyes

We also don't get to where we are now w/o the turnovers our D has created. Big plays from Rob jackson, Kerrigan and Fletcher. Then, there are the 8TDs Moss has this year and the 17/17 fgs that Kai has. It's been a total team
Effort footy. Give credit to everyone, not just the few with the biggest salaries on the team. I'm glad someone writing for a Washington DC area newspaper has recognized them for their contributions. Applause
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
I get what you are saying, footy, and I agree with it except for one thing: no mention of Morris? Really?

I thought about it, but ultimately I didn't include him because I had a hard time justifying him as a star player. Morris looks to be a special runner, and his production is a big reason why the Skins are where they are now, but the running game as a whole deserves credit as a unit rather than the individual. Certainly one can argue that Morris has proven himself worthy of inclusion in the pivotal playmakers of the offense.

turtle28 wrote:
i do get your point, I know we need stars and super stars. Daly has mentioned that as well. We've also won without some of them at times and yeah he's giving credit to the little guy.

Why is that you have a problem when little guys get credit and not just the stars? It's funny because you love when Kory L gets credit but god for bid someone give love to Rob Jackson and Logan Paulsen, geeze that's just the end of the world for you. Rolling Eyes

We also don't get to where we are now w/o the turnovers our D has created. Big plays from Rob jackson, Kerrigan and Fletcher. Then, there are the 8TDs Moss has this year and the 17/17 fgs that Kai has. It's been a total team
Effort footy. Give credit to everyone, not just the few with the biggest salaries on the team. I'm glad someone writing for a Washington DC area newspaper has recognized them for their contributions. Applause


Arrow Lichtensteiger is a starter, and plays a major role on most running plays.
Arrow Did I say that Lichtensteiger is the reason they are in the playoffs? Did I insinuate that they wouldn't be without him?
Arrow To work off B, the Redskins will be making the playoffs with Polumbus as their RT. Again, the difference between this year and last year is the Redskins have a star player at QB, while also having a tougher schedule.
Arrow Moss has been better than I thought he would be, admittedly. My point remains: the coaches deserve the most credit outside of those star players.
Arrow Forbath has been very consistent, but let's not get ourselves carried away - He's no Vinatieri and has yet to prove consistently clutch to warrant mention as an impact player.

Logan Paulsen and Rob Jackson are replaceable players. Happy that they are doing well, but you let those players walk if they get contract offers from elsewhere. You need players who are effective at their specified role to win a championship, which is why Niles Paul and Lorenzo Alexander are exceedingly valuable. Aldrick Robinson is making a case this season, as was Keenan Robinson.

I entered this season with a bias against Rob Jackson because he should be replaced. With Orakpo's injury, it is obvious that this team needs a high-ceiling prospect to develop. Jackson has played ~50% of the snaps at ROLB since the bye, and I've seen Lorenzo Alexander have more impact when he was out there, which I didn't think possible after seeing him play outside in 2010.

The team has a couple of stars, and they will continue to build around them. Now that money is tight, and will be until the 2014 season, it is important for the team to make moves that set themselves up for the future. This includes the ability to get franchise impacting FAs in 2013 and 2014, and use their drafts to continue to build the depth.

To recap: Yes, I could care less about a piece like this because it's trying to disguise the truth, which is: stars get you to the playoffs. As long as your team does not have terrible depth, that is what they will do every year. When you develop strong depth around them, then you have the support system to sustain that success when the 'star' does not play like one.

For me, the following are musts:
- Lorenzo Alexander
- Darrel Young (RFA) * inexpensive
- Logan Paulsen (RFA) * inexpensive
- Kory Lichtensteiger
- Fred Davis

EDIT: And Nick Sundberg of course.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
For me, the following are musts:
- Lorenzo Alexander
- Darrel Young (RFA) * inexpensive
- Logan Paulsen (RFA) * inexpensive
- Kory Lichtensteiger
- Fred Davis

EDIT: And Nick Sundberg of course.


http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/washington-redskins/

Restricted Free Agents
Banks, Brandon
Paulsen, Logan
Robinson, Aldrick
Sundberg, Nick
Young, Darrel

Of these five, only Robinson was drafted. Tthe new CBA has only three levels: Right of First Refusal/Original Round ($1.260M), Second Round ($1.927M), and First Round ($2.742M). The amounts are from 2012 but are supposed to "remain approximately similar" for 2013.

All in all, none of these guys are worthy of a first round tender, especially if the cap penalty is enforced. So, the question becomes: how much do you want to gamble? If I'm not mistaken, if you choose not tender the player, they automatically become a full free agent. So, unless you absolutely don't want the player, tendering him makes sense. Even for Banks, as it allows you to maintain a bit of control over him (you can maybe later deal him for a late round pick in 2014 for instance).

If I had to guess, I'd say a RoFR on Banks, Paulsen, and Young (with Young being the only one I would match if it were reasonable). I'd protect Robinson with a 2nd. Sundberg is the interesting case; he's critical to our special teams so you would think to cover him at a higher level. At the same time, he's a long snapper, so I'd gamble and give him a RoFR tender. I would strongly considering matching his.


Unrestricted Free Agents
Alexander, Lorenzo
Baker, Chris
Compton, Tom (due to being elevated from practice squad)
Cooley, Chris
Davis, Fred
Golston, Kedric
Grossman, Rex
Jackson, Rob
Jones, David
Kehl, Bryan
Lichtensteiger, Kory
Polumbus, Tyler
Rocca, Sav
Williams, Madieu
Wilson, Chris

Priority targets = Alexander, Lichtensteiger, Polumbus ... and I guess Davis (he wouldn't be my priority, but others disagree)

Next tier = Baker, Golston

Guys I'll resign to cheap deals = Compton (he'd get a three year vet min deal), Grossman (one year, vet min), Jones (one year, vet min), Kehl (two year, incentive deal), Williams (one year, incentive deal), Wilson (one year, vet min)

Let Walk = Cooley, Jackson (because he's going to want to be a starter some place; I'd resign him cheap if he becomes available though), Rocca (due to age; it's risky, though)
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like a great plan to me Woz! Where do I sign Question Wink Cool
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