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Terranimal


Joined: 31 Oct 2011
Posts: 256
Location: Wisconsin
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Draft Thoughts #3: OL Reply with quote

Originally wrote on Dec. 20. 2012....

Look around mock draft sites, team needs on sites and local media, and common conversation on message boards and in sports bars, and one will find a common topic of discussion: The O-Line.

The difference come though over whether it's a Left tackle or Center or both needed.

Understandable seeing how Rodgers is the most sacked QB this season and everyone worries about protecting the Franchise QB. Even a blind person can see that how Rodgers goes, so does the Packers fortunes.

Adding fuel to the fire of these discussions is that Saturday is old and probably done after this season, Bulaga went on IR, Sherrod still hasn't recovered from having his leg broke in two positions, and Newhouse being anything but consistent. This O-Line has had to make shift and adjust many times this season with different groupings. So these concerns are legitimate by fans and the media. But the million dollar question is how does GM Ted Thompson and head coach Mike McCarthy view this?

Some answers since all of the start of talk on O-Line have come to the surface.

1.) We have learned from Tuesdays with Aaron on espnwisconsin that he thinks EDS will be a solid Center for the Packers. This shouldn't be taken likely given what Aaron has said about the QB/Center relationship on the field.

Last year Aaron spoke on former Center Wells on how the Center is the QB of the OL and that the two of them think as one and help out each other. The Center is also responsible for picking up the defense and making Line adjustments, just like Rodgers does. We have seen this hasn't always been the case this season with OL breakdowns in protection.

Before Lang got moved back to LG, McCarthy spoke about how EDS had graded out highly in his last game at LG.

2.) Greg Van Rotten has also played Center before and is the running for competition next year. This has come through different media sources, as well as the Miller lite football show on Sundays with Chumura and Wilde. Aaron has also made mention of him on his Tuesday show, but don't remember exactly what he said.

3.) Barclay has proven to be more than adequate at Right tackle. He is a better run blocker than pass blocker at this stage but improves every week and made enough of an impression that when Lang returned, Barclay stayed at RT and Lang resumed his LG position.

4.) Bulaga: He was originally drafted for Clifton's replacement at Left tackle. But he's played so well at Right tackle that he's considered by some in NFL circles as one of the best RTs in the game. But with Barclay playing well at Right tackle and Sherrod's future unknown at this time and some of the problems Newhouse has had, there is a lot of talk of Bulaga maybe moving Left Tackle next season.

Summary:

1.) Center- Though most seem to want Thompson to draft one, it seems unlikely he will in round one. very rarely do centers come right in and plug in and play. Also if using a first one a Center he better be very, very special and elite...a player that will be a perennial pro bowler. There are none in this draft fitting that criteria.

So at this stage it figures to be a battle between EDS and Van Rotten. Of course Thompson could always bring in one through free agency again, though that seems remote at this writing.

2.) Guard- Both Sitton and Lang have contracts to keep them intact for a few years. Behind them are EDS and Van Rotten.

3.) Tackles- this is one place was thinking we might grab in one of the first two rounds until what I went through above. As of now we have Sherrod as a question but might still be the future player for LT. Then there is the talk of Bulaga at LT to battle against Newhouse and we have Datko on the PS who should be stronger and healed by next camp that might be able to fill in at either Tackle. and Lang as our back-up swing tackle for both Left and Right tackle.

Overall: Don't think things are bad as they have appeared this year. Name any team playing with it's 4th Tackle on the field and doing as well as the Pack have done. So while most think or want an OL early, my guess is that Thompson won't go there in the first two rounds.

Also add to the fact the prior to the last draft most thought another pass rusher would be tops on the need/want list and Thompson didn't address that until this past draft. Thompson has some Wolf to him for fooling everyone on his first target of the draft.
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rbens06


Joined: 07 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Draft Thoughts #3: OL Reply with quote

Terranimal wrote:
Originally wrote on Dec. 20. 2012....

Look around mock draft sites, team needs on sites and local media, and common conversation on message boards and in sports bars, and one will find a common topic of discussion: The O-Line.

The difference come though over whether it's a Left tackle or Center or both needed.

Understandable seeing how Rodgers is the most sacked QB this season and everyone worries about protecting the Franchise QB. Even a blind person can see that how Rodgers goes, so does the Packers fortunes.

Adding fuel to the fire of these discussions is that Saturday is old and probably done after this season, Bulaga went on IR, Sherrod still hasn't recovered from having his leg broke in two positions, and Newhouse being anything but consistent. This O-Line has had to make shift and adjust many times this season with different groupings. So these concerns are legitimate by fans and the media. But the million dollar question is how does GM Ted Thompson and head coach Mike McCarthy view this?

Some answers since all of the start of talk on O-Line have come to the surface.

1.) We have learned from Tuesdays with Aaron on espnwisconsin that he thinks EDS will be a solid Center for the Packers. This shouldn't be taken likely given what Aaron has said about the QB/Center relationship on the field.

Last year Aaron spoke on former Center Wells on how the Center is the QB of the OL and that the two of them think as one and help out each other. The Center is also responsible for picking up the defense and making Line adjustments, just like Rodgers does. We have seen this hasn't always been the case this season with OL breakdowns in protection.

Before Lang got moved back to LG, McCarthy spoke about how EDS had graded out highly in his last game at LG.

2.) Greg Van Rotten has also played Center before and is the running for competition next year. This has come through different media sources, as well as the Miller lite football show on Sundays with Chumura and Wilde. Aaron has also made mention of him on his Tuesday show, but don't remember exactly what he said.

3.) Barclay has proven to be more than adequate at Right tackle. He is a better run blocker than pass blocker at this stage but improves every week and made enough of an impression that when Lang returned, Barclay stayed at RT and Lang resumed his LG position.

4.) Bulaga: He was originally drafted for Clifton's replacement at Left tackle. But he's played so well at Right tackle that he's considered by some in NFL circles as one of the best RTs in the game. But with Barclay playing well at Right tackle and Sherrod's future unknown at this time and some of the problems Newhouse has had, there is a lot of talk of Bulaga maybe moving Left Tackle next season.

Summary:

1.) Center- Though most seem to want Thompson to draft one, it seems unlikely he will in round one. very rarely do centers come right in and plug in and play. Also if using a first one a Center he better be very, very special and elite...a player that will be a perennial pro bowler. There are none in this draft fitting that criteria.

So at this stage it figures to be a battle between EDS and Van Rotten. Of course Thompson could always bring in one through free agency again, though that seems remote at this writing.

2.) Guard- Both Sitton and Lang have contracts to keep them intact for a few years. Behind them are EDS and Van Rotten.

3.) Tackles- this is one place was thinking we might grab in one of the first two rounds until what I went through above. As of now we have Sherrod as a question but might still be the future player for LT. Then there is the talk of Bulaga at LT to battle against Newhouse and we have Datko on the PS who should be stronger and healed by next camp that might be able to fill in at either Tackle. and Lang as our back-up swing tackle for both Left and Right tackle.

Overall: Don't think things are bad as they have appeared this year. Name any team playing with it's 4th Tackle on the field and doing as well as the Pack have done. So while most think or want an OL early, my guess is that Thompson won't go there in the first two rounds.

Also add to the fact the prior to the last draft most thought another pass rusher would be tops on the need/want list and Thompson didn't address that until this past draft. Thompson has some Wolf to him for fooling everyone on his first target of the draft.


Very nicely done! Only thing is that if you look at the years prior it is likely a first round C comes in and starts (Pouncey, Mack, Wood, Mangold...), but as you mentioned most of these guys are elite/special players.
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GreenGold12


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think of it this way..

first some thoughts:
Sherrod barely missed activation this year. They just couldn't swing it. Huge leg injury, takes a long time to heal from. That said, if the kid can play, and by all means I liked him as a prospect, he will be playing 1 2/3 years removed from the injury.

Datko as a pick is very very interesting. We took a late round waiver on a guy who had a bad injury and was not ready to play as a rookie. The Packers had lots of chances to activate him with injuries this year and chose to keep him on the PS. Means two things; he sure as hell is not ready to play right now, and TT was not scared of another team picking him up off the PS, likely due to this same injury. Datko was a real nice prospect though. I think in a couple of years we might be celebrating this pick. Who knows.

Ted Thompson will likely take at least one o-linemen in this draft, he just always does. I think that TT is pretty damn good at drafting oline and doesn't get enough praise there. He is absolutely aces at finding gems in rounds 3-6, and I would guess he takes one or two more swings in this range next year. Expect at least one more guy capable of competing either immediately or in coming years.


with that said, I love our tackles. Don't think we need to draft one high.

Bryan Bulaga - had an All-Pro-esque season the year before at RT. Very good player.

Marshall Newhouse - Capable starter, won't lose you a game with Rodgers feet. Struggles with speed rushers, will get abused at times. Ideally, a very high quality backup to have moving forward.

Derek Sherrod - Already talked about him. Think he's a really good pass protection prospect. Won't run block any better than Newhouse but he won't get abused around the edge. Very excited to see the impact he has on our pass game, every extra second is deadly with Rodgers. Wish people wouldn't give up on him so soon. His leg injury is a freak accident, really painful, difficult injury to recover from. Gotta let him get on the field again before we try to draft another tackle in the first round. Don't think we should lose faith in a TT 1st round LT so quickly.

Don Barclay - Tough as nails, young, a lot to like about the guy. Good run blocker. Not sure how much better he can get, but as a long term backup to Bulaga super cool asset to have.

Sherrod-Newouse
Bulaga-Barclay
is a real nice group for future years. All really young, none of them should break the bank on second contracts. I still think Datko is a potential gem, too.


Think about how much of our offensive struggles come from Rodgers not having enough time. How do you beat the Packers? Rush four and drop everyone else back, two high safeties. Why does it beat the Packers? Because rushing 4 will usually create pressure much faster than it should.

Newhouse-Lang-EDS-Sitton-Barclay
is a bottom-10 unit, I think it's safe to say. I actually think we were bottom-5 back when Lang was playing tackle, Saturday was in and and EDS was at guard.

Sherrod-Lang-EDS-Sitton-Bulaga
could really easily be top-5 unit. The things that could do for our offense are more valuable than any all star runningbacks, tight ends or wide-outs.

This is a very exciting team.
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The Kuhn


Joined: 07 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GreenGold12 wrote:
I think of it this way..

first some thoughts:
Sherrod barely missed activation this year. They just couldn't swing it. Huge leg injury, takes a long time to heal from. That said, if the kid can play, and by all means I liked him as a prospect, he will be playing 1 2/3 years removed from the injury.

Datko as a pick is very very interesting. We took a late round waiver on a guy who had a bad injury and was not ready to play as a rookie. The Packers had lots of chances to activate him with injuries this year and chose to keep him on the PS. Means two things; he sure as hell is not ready to play right now, and TT was not scared of another team picking him up off the PS, likely due to this same injury. Datko was a real nice prospect though. I think in a couple of years we might be celebrating this pick. Who knows.

Ted Thompson will likely take at least one o-linemen in this draft, he just always does. I think that TT is pretty damn good at drafting oline and doesn't get enough praise there. He is absolutely aces at finding gems in rounds 3-6, and I would guess he takes one or two more swings in this range next year. Expect at least one more guy capable of competing either immediately or in coming years.


with that said, I love our tackles. Don't think we need to draft one high.

Bryan Bulaga - had an All-Pro-esque season the year before at RT. Very good player.

Marshall Newhouse - Capable starter, won't lose you a game with Rodgers feet. Struggles with speed rushers, will get abused at times. Ideally, a very high quality backup to have moving forward.

Derek Sherrod - Already talked about him. Think he's a really good pass protection prospect. Won't run block any better than Newhouse but he won't get abused around the edge. Very excited to see the impact he has on our pass game, every extra second is deadly with Rodgers. Wish people wouldn't give up on him so soon. His leg injury is a freak accident, really painful, difficult injury to recover from. Gotta let him get on the field again before we try to draft another tackle in the first round. Don't think we should lose faith in a TT 1st round LT so quickly.

Don Barclay - Tough as nails, young, a lot to like about the guy. Good run blocker. Not sure how much better he can get, but as a long term backup to Bulaga super cool asset to have.

Sherrod-Newouse
Bulaga-Barclay
is a real nice group for future years. All really young, none of them should break the bank on second contracts. I still think Datko is a potential gem, too.


Think about how much of our offensive struggles come from Rodgers not having enough time. How do you beat the Packers? Rush four and drop everyone else back, two high safeties. Why does it beat the Packers? Because rushing 4 will usually create pressure much faster than it should.

Newhouse-Lang-EDS-Sitton-Barclay
is a bottom-10 unit, I think it's safe to say. I actually think we were bottom-5 back when Lang was playing tackle, Saturday was in and and EDS was at guard.

Sherrod-Lang-EDS-Sitton-Bulaga
could really easily be top-5 unit. The things that could do for our offense are more valuable than any all star runningbacks, tight ends or wide-outs.

This is a very exciting team.


+1. It is so frustrating to log onto different mock draft websites and see people giving us an OT in rounds 1 or 2. Even more frustrating is people on this website mocking the same.

In drafting a tackle in the first couple rounds TT is essentially giving up another first round draft pick 2 years after he was drafted. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Everyone is clammoring for an OT in case the Sherrod pick doesn't pan out, but isn't that exactly why TT drafted Datko? Or brought in Barclay? Sherrod hasn't even had a chance to show us what he is made of! Are we ready to give up on Perry because he too is an unproven commodity who has suffered a season ending injury?

Everyone always describes TT as that BPA/Value pick guy, but where is the value in drafting 3 OT in 4 years?? We all know TT relys heavily on the draft when building onto this team, so when he drafts in the first 3 (4??) rounds he's not looking for rotational players, he's looking for potential starters. What happenes if we bring in Eric Fisher or Taylor Lewan and Sherrod comes back 100% and outpreforms them?

I'm glad someone brought this up, I'm really tired of seeing people mock us an OT in the first couple rounds. IMO, OT is one of the last positions we need to address on draft day. I just don't see any value in it and I doubt TT does either.
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duxrule


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couldn't agree more. Guessing.....TT goes BPA/WR with first pick.
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British


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TT will certainly draft OL at some point, probably interior depth, but OT is not a desperate need for the reasons stated.

Right now if I was picking the 53 for 2013 these would be our lineman:

Sherrod, Lang, EDS, Sitton, Bulaga; Newhouse, Barclay, Datko/Van Roten

Assuming Sherrod and Bulaga come back healthy, and I've not read anything which suggests they won't, we could be drowning in young tackles with potential while being short inside.

The problem is Sherrod and Newhouse are probably tackle-only and I don't know how versatile Barclay and Datko are. Others may be able t shed light.

Datko is interesting. The big question mark with him was his shoulder. The fact he's been training with the squad all year and hasn't had a relapse suggests to me he might actually be ok. The assumption was he would break down and land on IR. If he's healthy then he could prove to be a steal.

As for him not being called up, I don't see why he would have been. Newhouse has been the starter all year and is still healthy. Barclay was on the team and was next man in when Bulaga went down. Why bring up Datko when he's on the PS anyway?

The real danger for him (and Coleman) being poached from our scout team comes now as teams start building rosters for the offseason.

With our depth at Tackle if I was Datko I might be open to an offer from another team where I'm higher than the 5th choice OT.
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justo


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duxrule wrote:
Couldn't agree more. Guessing.....TT goes BPA/WR with first pick.
Only in Green Bay could an NFL team have a "need" at WR with Nelson/Cobb/Jones/Finley Laughing
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PossibleCabbage


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the OP's analysis. OL is more of a concern for this year, than it is for next year.

You still want to see TT taking an OL high on day 3 though, since Thompson has found some players that way (e.g. Newhouse R5 2010, Lang R4 2009, Sitton R4 2008.)
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{Family Ghost}


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Packers depth here has wound up a bit better than I thought with EDS and Barclay stepping in and filling starting roles. With the hopefully healthy return of Bulaga and Sherrod the Packers are not in too bad of shape at all. If Datko can take another positive step next year that would also help give us some added cover at T.

As mentioned above I think the Packers should be looking for one more interior lineman .. perhaps a swingman at Guard and Center. It would be nice if the added player could challenge for a starting Center job, while also being able to provide some backup potential at Guard. I think between Bulaga, Newhouse, Sherrod, Barclay, and Datko we have the Tackle position covered.
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Terranimal


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justo wrote:
duxrule wrote:
Couldn't agree more. Guessing.....TT goes BPA/WR with first pick.
Only in Green Bay could an NFL team have a "need" at WR with Nelson/Cobb/Jones/Finley Laughing


Not to nit pick, but it's really for future need, which is also where Thompson usually excels at. IF that is the group for 2012 you're correct, but personally think Driver, Jennings(though hope not) and Finley could all be gone.

Jones is a free agent in '14, while both Nelson and Cobb are free agents in '15. There's no way to keep them all and seeing how it usually takes a year for a WR to learn this Offense down cold, this would be the perfect time to get a possible number 1 type and if they could also be a returner to take Cobb off special teams would a be a bonus.....(like Patterson)
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HyponGrey


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read the "EDS named starting Center" thread. 5th page Palmy talks about Sherrod.
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=15329399

palmy50 wrote:
I Am Rodgers wrote:
Pugger wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
GreenGold12 wrote:
Our O-line next year could be so markedly improved that we could be an entirely different offense. For reals!

Sherrod-Lang-EDS-Sitton-Bulaga
Newhouse-draftadude-Barclay

^^That is seriously pretty good!


A healthy Sherrod alone could make a huge difference IMO.


I saw him standing next to other players in the 2012 team photo and he is HUGE! Shocked


Palmy said it earlier. It'll take an edge rusher an extra half second or so just to get around him. Laughing


Some play big and some are big, Sherrod is both! I don't doubt his pass pro set one bit. Doubt he ever brings much to the table in the run game though. Sherrod is not a natural knee bender, leverage is not on his side, and it's just not his mindset. That's a big boy with some feet though. I mean, have Bulaga and Sherrod stand side by side. They look about the same on paper but Sherrod looks much bigger. Big difference between built big and born big. Sherrod is long, thick, and big in all areas as it relates to the football field.

I was not a big Sherrod fan on draft day but would be the first to tell ya his all around skill set is VERY high end. More upside than any in this class IMO. Just need to get him there.


Everything depends on Sherrod.
Newhouse is a well developed backup, who, should Sherrod return, hold the fort if Sherrod is not ready to start
I'm still hesitant on EDS, but the next few weeks will tell us all we need to know.
Lang will develop at Guard
Barclay is a serviceable back up, plus we had him playing Guard at the start of the year.
I still don't think Bulaga should move to LT. Body type.
Don't know a thing about GVR. What is our fetish with 3 initials C/G?
Datko stays on PS until he adds strength and rids himself of his injury ghost.
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Terranimal


Joined: 31 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HyponGrey wrote:
Read the "EDS named starting Center" thread. 5th page Palmy talks about Sherrod.
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=15329399

palmy50 wrote:
I Am Rodgers wrote:
Pugger wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
GreenGold12 wrote:
Our O-line next year could be so markedly improved that we could be an entirely different offense. For reals!

Sherrod-Lang-EDS-Sitton-Bulaga
Newhouse-draftadude-Barclay

^^That is seriously pretty good!


A healthy Sherrod alone could make a huge difference IMO.


I saw him standing next to other players in the 2012 team photo and he is HUGE! Shocked


Palmy said it earlier. It'll take an edge rusher an extra half second or so just to get around him. Laughing


Some play big and some are big, Sherrod is both! I don't doubt his pass pro set one bit. Doubt he ever brings much to the table in the run game though. Sherrod is not a natural knee bender, leverage is not on his side, and it's just not his mindset. That's a big boy with some feet though. I mean, have Bulaga and Sherrod stand side by side. They look about the same on paper but Sherrod looks much bigger. Big difference between built big and born big. Sherrod is long, thick, and big in all areas as it relates to the football field.

I was not a big Sherrod fan on draft day but would be the first to tell ya his all around skill set is VERY high end. More upside than any in this class IMO. Just need to get him there.


Everything depends on Sherrod. 100% agree!
Newhouse is a well developed backup, who, should Sherrod return, hold the fort if Sherrod is not ready to start
I'm still hesitant on EDS, but the next few weeks will tell us all we need to know.
Lang will develop at Guard
Barclay is a serviceable back up, plus we had him playing Guard at the start of the year.
I still don't think Bulaga should move to LT. Body type.
Don't know a thing about GVR. What is our fetish with 3 initials C/G?
Datko stays on PS until he adds strength and rids himself of his injury ghost.
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packattack86


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Packers go O-line in the late first rd Barret Jones of Alabama would be a great pick. He has decent size/athleticism, and he's very smart. He's played multiple positions on the line so his versatility adds extra value. The Packers could also look to add a big D-lineman that can play end and NT, because Pickett is getting old. A guy like John Jenkins or Jesse Williams could be in play.
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Jleisher


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with packattack86. Barrett Jones is a solid to stud players at all 5 OL positions, with picking in the late first rd, it makes sense to grab him.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jleisher wrote:
I agree with packattack86. Barrett Jones is a solid to stud players at all 5 OL positions, with picking in the late first rd, it makes sense to grab him.


He's not a left tackle by any means. Maybe in a pinch, but he's not someone you want going up against the premier pass rushers. His value comes in that he's just a really good football player, but average athlete. You know what you're getting out of him, but aren't getting anything extraordinary. I'd honestly rather take Cooper at this point.
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