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What separates the 49ers D, from the Cowboys D?
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textaz03


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaBoys wrote:
textaz03 wrote:
It's easy for me, a DE and NT would put this Defense over the top. We need some interior pass rush help! Badly needed!! Ratliff is a shell of his former self, Spears and Coleman are good against the run but really no help in pass rush. One trick pony's. our LB's need some help getting the pressure on and that is the difference between us and 49'ers.

What Justin Smith, JJ Watts, and Haloti Ngata do from the 3-4 end position is what we are missing. That and a big prototypical NT to collapse the pocket and take on the double teams.


I don't know if I would go that far just yet. Will he get cut because of his large contract, combined with injuries? Will he get cut because of his attitude? These are things that are certainly a prospect, but besides this year he has started all 16 games for the previous 4. I am willing to bet this isn't the new trend, despite his age. If he limps around next year then we will have our answer, but 1 injury ridden year out of 5 is not enough to write him off just yet. He isn't very much older than he was last year, and he had 38 tackles and 2 sacks. Those are extremely solid numbers for a 3-4 NT. Better than Sopoagas.'
ratliff has been in decline since his stellar 2008 season.

Sacks followed by solo tackles then combined tackles

08 - 7.5 / 33 / 51 (16 games)
09 - 6 / 29 / 40 (16 games)
10 - 3.5 / 23 / 31 (16 games)
11 - 2 / 29 / 38 (16 games)
12 - 0 / 10 / 16 (6 games)

That shows clear decline in my book.
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

textaz03 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
textaz03 wrote:
It's easy for me, a DE and NT would put this Defense over the top. We need some interior pass rush help! Badly needed!! Ratliff is a shell of his former self, Spears and Coleman are good against the run but really no help in pass rush. One trick pony's. our LB's need some help getting the pressure on and that is the difference between us and 49'ers.

What Justin Smith, JJ Watts, and Haloti Ngata do from the 3-4 end position is what we are missing. That and a big prototypical NT to collapse the pocket and take on the double teams.


I don't know if I would go that far just yet. Will he get cut because of his large contract, combined with injuries? Will he get cut because of his attitude? These are things that are certainly a prospect, but besides this year he has started all 16 games for the previous 4. I am willing to bet this isn't the new trend, despite his age. If he limps around next year then we will have our answer, but 1 injury ridden year out of 5 is not enough to write him off just yet. He isn't very much older than he was last year, and he had 38 tackles and 2 sacks. Those are extremely solid numbers for a 3-4 NT. Better than Sopoagas.'
ratliff has been in decline since his stellar 2008 season.

Sacks followed by solo tackles then combined tackles

08 - 7.5 / 33 / 51 (16 games)
09 - 6 / 29 / 40 (16 games)
10 - 3.5 / 23 / 31 (16 games)
11 - 2 / 29 / 38 (16 games)
12 - 0 / 10 / 16 (6 games)

That shows clear decline in my book.


I'll give you a decline. He has declined, but as I said, even in his worst year 2011, he has produced better than the NT in a top 5 defense, Sopoaga. One could say that Vince Wilfork is on a bit of a decline, though maybe not as drastic, I would still take Wilfork over some of the other NTs on the up and up. Just because of what he has once showcased. I think Casey Hampton has been on a decline, though he is 4 years older than Ratliff, he is still serviceable at NT for the Steelers. I'm not saying Rat is getting better, but I don't think he is done either. I also think that the shell of him is better than most 3-4 NTs in the league.

I would like for us to have Ratliff and Hatcher as our DTs, and see what we can get at NT through the draft or FA.
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Matts4313 wrote:
I agree with daboys, some of you might be insane.

The_Slamman wrote:
Daboys is right.

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
BTW, DaBoys wins this thread.
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textaz03


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaBoys wrote:
textaz03 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
textaz03 wrote:
It's easy for me, a DE and NT would put this Defense over the top. We need some interior pass rush help! Badly needed!! Ratliff is a shell of his former self, Spears and Coleman are good against the run but really no help in pass rush. One trick pony's. our LB's need some help getting the pressure on and that is the difference between us and 49'ers.

What Justin Smith, JJ Watts, and Haloti Ngata do from the 3-4 end position is what we are missing. That and a big prototypical NT to collapse the pocket and take on the double teams.


I don't know if I would go that far just yet. Will he get cut because of his large contract, combined with injuries? Will he get cut because of his attitude? These are things that are certainly a prospect, but besides this year he has started all 16 games for the previous 4. I am willing to bet this isn't the new trend, despite his age. If he limps around next year then we will have our answer, but 1 injury ridden year out of 5 is not enough to write him off just yet. He isn't very much older than he was last year, and he had 38 tackles and 2 sacks. Those are extremely solid numbers for a 3-4 NT. Better than Sopoagas.'
ratliff has been in decline since his stellar 2008 season.

Sacks followed by solo tackles then combined tackles

08 - 7.5 / 33 / 51 (16 games)
09 - 6 / 29 / 40 (16 games)
10 - 3.5 / 23 / 31 (16 games)
11 - 2 / 29 / 38 (16 games)
12 - 0 / 10 / 16 (6 games)

That shows clear decline in my book.


I'll give you a decline. He has declined, but as I said, even in his worst year 2011, he has produced better than the NT in a top 5 defense, Sopoaga. One could say that Vince Wilfork is on a bit of a decline, though maybe not as drastic, I would still take Wilfork over some of the other NTs on the up and up. Just because of what he has once showcased. I think Casey Hampton has been on a decline, though he is 4 years older than Ratliff, he is still serviceable at NT for the Steelers. I'm not saying Rat is getting better, but I don't think he is done either. I also think that the shell of him is better than most 3-4 NTs in the league.

I would like for us to have Ratliff and Hatcher as our DTs, and see what we can get at NT through the draft or FA.
its not just about the stats, watch the film. He has lost a step, can't get off the blocker as easy, doesn't get that push anymore to collapse a pocket and can no longer best the double team on a consistent basis like he used too.

Those constant double teams he frequently saw have worn down his undersized body for the position. There is a reason why every other 3-4 defense in the league uses a big body to anchor the line. We are the only 3-4 that utilizes an undersized 2 gab NT for our base defense.
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

textaz03 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
textaz03 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
textaz03 wrote:
It's easy for me, a DE and NT would put this Defense over the top. We need some interior pass rush help! Badly needed!! Ratliff is a shell of his former self, Spears and Coleman are good against the run but really no help in pass rush. One trick pony's. our LB's need some help getting the pressure on and that is the difference between us and 49'ers.

What Justin Smith, JJ Watts, and Haloti Ngata do from the 3-4 end position is what we are missing. That and a big prototypical NT to collapse the pocket and take on the double teams.


I don't know if I would go that far just yet. Will he get cut because of his large contract, combined with injuries? Will he get cut because of his attitude? These are things that are certainly a prospect, but besides this year he has started all 16 games for the previous 4. I am willing to bet this isn't the new trend, despite his age. If he limps around next year then we will have our answer, but 1 injury ridden year out of 5 is not enough to write him off just yet. He isn't very much older than he was last year, and he had 38 tackles and 2 sacks. Those are extremely solid numbers for a 3-4 NT. Better than Sopoagas.'
ratliff has been in decline since his stellar 2008 season.

Sacks followed by solo tackles then combined tackles

08 - 7.5 / 33 / 51 (16 games)
09 - 6 / 29 / 40 (16 games)
10 - 3.5 / 23 / 31 (16 games)
11 - 2 / 29 / 38 (16 games)
12 - 0 / 10 / 16 (6 games)

That shows clear decline in my book.


I'll give you a decline. He has declined, but as I said, even in his worst year 2011, he has produced better than the NT in a top 5 defense, Sopoaga. One could say that Vince Wilfork is on a bit of a decline, though maybe not as drastic, I would still take Wilfork over some of the other NTs on the up and up. Just because of what he has once showcased. I think Casey Hampton has been on a decline, though he is 4 years older than Ratliff, he is still serviceable at NT for the Steelers. I'm not saying Rat is getting better, but I don't think he is done either. I also think that the shell of him is better than most 3-4 NTs in the league.

I would like for us to have Ratliff and Hatcher as our DTs, and see what we can get at NT through the draft or FA.
its not just about the stats, watch the film. He has lost a step, can't get off the blocker as easy, doesn't get that push anymore to collapse a pocket and can no longer best the double team on a consistent basis like he used too.

Those constant double teams he frequently saw have worn down his undersized body for the position. There is a reason why every other 3-4 defense in the league uses a big body to anchor the line. We are the only 3-4 that utilizes an undersized 2 gab NT for our base defense.


I agree that there is a reason that most teams use a bigger NT, and as I said I would like to move him to DT. It is funny though that you mentioned the film. I felt that the film for this year has really been in his favor. Do you remember when he first came back? He was playing out of his mind before he went down again. I can't remember which game exactly, but remember when he was yelling at Ogletree on the sideline for being terrible? He was outstanding that game. The team was obviously better with him on the field, despite how well Brent was playing. He was averaging nearly 2 tackles a game, and if he could continue that production over the course of a season, while picking up a sack or two, 32 tackles and 2 sacks for a 3-4 NT is solid, and I stand by that. I also feel like he put on some weight this year. listen, I know I am in the minority with Ratliff. I am also fairly certain, he may be gone after this year, but I don't think he is done. Not on the stat sheet and not on the film.

Quote:
Ratliff has played in just six games this season and has zero sacks, but it's his presence in the middle that the Cowboys' defense revolves around.

The team misses him most against rushing attacks, where he gobbles up multiple blockers and plugs gaps. Ratliff's importance was evident in Week 13 when Philadelphia Eagles rookie running back Bryce Brown thrashed the Cowboys' defense for 169 yards. It led to a heated post-game locker-room exchange in which Jones reportedly told Ratliff, "We need you."

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Matts4313 wrote:
I agree with daboys, some of you might be insane.

The_Slamman wrote:
Daboys is right.

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
BTW, DaBoys wins this thread.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest difference is the DL and also SF's depth on the DL and even OLBs. Smith and McDonald are substantially better than anything we've got on the DL. Ratliff is undersized and isn't a true NT. With NTs, it isn't all about the stats. It's about the clog.

SF's defense has the ability to physically dominate its opponents. The way they physically overwhelmed the patriots was spectacular. Our defense simply does not have the kind of ability. The closest we've come to that type of play was 2009.

On a side note, Bowman and Willis are superior to Lee and Carter. It's not a push. It's not close to a push.
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
The biggest difference is the DL and also SF's depth on the DL and even OLBs. Smith and McDonald are substantially better than anything we've got on the DL. Ratliff is undersized and isn't a true NT. With NTs, it isn't all about the stats. It's about the clog.

SF's defense has the ability to physically dominate its opponents. The way they physically overwhelmed the patriots was spectacular. Our defense simply does not have the kind of ability. The closest we've come to that type of play was 2009.

On a side note, Bowman and Willis are superior to Lee and Carter. It's not a push. It's not close to a push.


That is highly debatable, sir! For a career body of work? Certainly, Willis and Bowman are better than Lee and Carter. No debate there. If all four are healthy for 16 games in 2014, I just don't see a huge drop in talent.'

EDIT:

Bowman and Sean Lee entered the Draft in the same year, from the same school. Lee was Drafted 55th and Bowman 91st. Bowman has been all inclusively more productive than Lee and is 2 years younger. Meanwhile Willis is the Megatron of ILBs, so it would be hard to compare Bruce Carter.

So, I will concede this battle.

I will finish by saying that the mild separation in talent can be attributed to games played/injuries. I can't say that I would trade our ILBs for theirs, but I will say that they have an advantage. It's like a Calvin Johnson over Dez Bryant advantage though. It's there. I just don't know if Id trade for it.

Also if we are going to lift the PUSH for ILBs then we also have to lift the PUSH for OLBs, but this time we favor a team with the guy named Ware.
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Matts4313 wrote:
I agree with daboys, some of you might be insane.

The_Slamman wrote:
Daboys is right.

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
BTW, DaBoys wins this thread.
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WareWolf94


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Ratliff has been battling injuries for the last 3 years. Maybe, just maybe if we can win this one, we'll see him in the playoffs, finally healthy. Whether he has declined or not, it would be a huge upgrade at NT, and would allow Lissemore to go back to his natural role.
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Northland


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We lack a difference maker on the DL and our safety play is simply attrocious. I like our CB's and OLB's. I will take Willis and Bowman in the middle over Carter and Lee but our guys are no slouches.
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Dboys88-82


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never really payed much attention, but im wondering if anyone else has been. Has Ware or Spencer lined up next to hatcher more often? He is obviously the best pass rusher we have on the d line and im wondering if hatcher has benefited off of ware or if spencer has benefited off of hatcher more.
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dboys88-82 wrote:
I never really payed much attention, but im wondering if anyone else has been. Has Ware or Spencer lined up next to hatcher more often? He is obviously the best pass rusher we have on the d line and im wondering if hatcher has benefited off of ware or if spencer has benefited off of hatcher more.


Im rewatching the Bengals game right now. When Ware and Spencer are both in, they line Ware over the top of Hatcher, most of the time. When Ware goes out of the game, they moved Spencer over the top of Hatcher, and stick Butler over Spears. Then switched Butler over Hatcher the very next play.

So normally it looks something like this

Spencer
Spears
Liss
Hatcher
Ware

When they go 4 down linemen it looks like this

Spencer
Spears
Crawford
Ware

or

Spencer
Crawford
Hatcher
Ware

also

Spencer
Liss
Hatcher
Ware

With Spencer and Ware standing.
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Matts4313 wrote:
I agree with daboys, some of you might be insane.

The_Slamman wrote:
Daboys is right.

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
BTW, DaBoys wins this thread.
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Nextyearfordaboyz


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly a disruptive force on the defensive line is something we are looking for and need. Michael Brockers would have been our pick this year had we stayed put. JJ Watt was our top backup choice to Tyron the year before. We also tried to trade back into the first round that year for Cam Jordan.

I don't imagine Crawford has deterred them from picking one in the first round this year if the value is there.

We obviously could use another safety, but a stud on the DL would make a bigger difference, IMO.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prior to all the injuries, our defense was ranked in the top 5.. wasnt it?


The difference between us and the 9ers is simple:

They have had 14 defensive players play significant time this year (over 100 snaps)

We have had 25 (which will likely be ~26-27 after Sunday) players play over 100 snaps for us this year.


Outside of that, I agree with your assessment. A playmaker DL and S would be huge for us.
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pierrepet


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone notice how different the SF defense looked against Seattle last week. Without J. Smith in the lineup, Seattle average over 10 yards a carry running to the left side. It is amazing what he does for that defense.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Health and Trenches - Their front 3 are better than ours and our D is destoryed by injuries. Carter and Lee looked just as good as Willis and Bowman when they were healthy and Ware and Spencer are better than Smith and Brooks.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought this was a good point by Dirk:


Dirk Gently wrote:
CentralFC wrote:

Rationalizing a potential loss because of your injury situation is pretty pathetic. Washington is beat up like hell on the defensive side of the ball but they've rallied.


How good would the 49ers Defense be down Bowman, Willis, Gooden, Wilhoite, McDonald, Sopoaga, Tukuafu, Whitner, Robinson, Spiller,and Cox, with Aldon Smith playing one-armed with a hyperextended Elbow and sprained shoulder? That's *exactly* analogous to the Cowboys' injury situation on defense. It's not an excuse. It's not rationalizing. It's simple attrition.

There's an injury situation and then there's ridiculous. The cowboys' situation is beyond ridiculous.

TL;DR version: take 11 guys out of the heart of any defense and then badly injure their best player, and yeah, their defense is going to be a little weak.

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If we're able to go 11-5 or better, then Garrett and his staff deserve to be coaches of the damned decade.
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