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Trade Ware in offseason?
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Rtnldave


Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 2970
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desperado82 wrote:
Ware isn't the type of player Belichick would trade. There is a big difference between him and guys like Seymour, Milloy, etc.

The latter were good players who, while considered tops at their positions at different points in their careers, were never considered Hall of Fame type players.

Ware is highly regarded as one of the best pass rushers to ever play the game. He has been mentioned with the likes of Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White, etc. You don't trade those types of players. He has struggled with injuries this year, but yet still remains on the field. He is a team leader and will be a key component in the team having success going forward.

Now, if someone said we should trade Ratliff, a player in that "good but not great" mold, I'd be all for it. Same with Austin. Same with Spencer.



I agree with 100% Des. But I think what some of the guys, including myself, are asking is that would you at least listen to offers and if you did, what would it take? AND if you got what you wanted (within reason, we're not asking for anyone's 1st born here), What long-term benefits do you think that would provide this team and how would it provide them?
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Desperado82


Joined: 20 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rtnldave wrote:
Desperado82 wrote:
Ware isn't the type of player Belichick would trade. There is a big difference between him and guys like Seymour, Milloy, etc.

The latter were good players who, while considered tops at their positions at different points in their careers, were never considered Hall of Fame type players.

Ware is highly regarded as one of the best pass rushers to ever play the game. He has been mentioned with the likes of Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White, etc. You don't trade those types of players. He has struggled with injuries this year, but yet still remains on the field. He is a team leader and will be a key component in the team having success going forward.

Now, if someone said we should trade Ratliff, a player in that "good but not great" mold, I'd be all for it. Same with Austin. Same with Spencer.



I agree with 100% Des. But I think what some of the guys, including myself, are asking is that would you at least listen to offers and if you did, what would it take? AND if you got what you wanted (within reason, we're not asking for anyone's 1st born here), What long-term benefits do you think that would provide this team and how would it provide them?



Would I listen to offers? Certainly. Any intelligent GM should always be looking to improve their team by any means necessary. I would listen to offers for Witten, Lee, Murray, etc. The only position I don't think you should ever trade is if you have a young, proven franchise QB - as we all know, those are damn hard to find these days.

If I am Jerry and Jason, if some team came along and offered two 1st round picks and as extra incentive a 2nd for Ware I would jump on the opportunity. The last three years this team has hit on each of their first round picks and been lucky with their 2nd round picks in 2010 and 2011, so I would feel comfortable enough in our scouts abilities to recognize talent in order to turn those picks into long-term starters for this team.

When you look at the Cowboys, our needs as of right now are another dependable OG, more depth and talent on the DL, possibly a replacement for Sensabaugh, and I think it's time we start looking for Romo's eventual replacement. If we allow Spencer to walk and in this hypothetical situation trade Ware, having two firsts we would be able to draft one of the many 3-4 OLBs projected to go in this draft as well as address the OL or DL with the extra first. With the additional second, we could address either the OL or DL (the opposite of whichever we take in the 1st) as well as add a talented safety, another OL prospect (a replacement for Free?) or a QB if one with enough potential fell.

I think we could let Albright and Wilber compete for that other OLB spot opposite the new draft pick, and hopefully after adding some talent to the DL, we would see our linebacking corps be able to take advantage of not having opposing lineman in their faces on every play - see the benefits afforded to Aldon Smith playing in San Francisco.
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DKDALfan


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

haven't really read through the thread, but why the fudge trade your best defensive player when your team finally is starting to look like they have a shot at making a couple of deep PO runs??? I would need 3 1st and some later rounders to consider a trade.

- Do you know how important Ware is for our defence? he requires the offence to gameplan around him, often they don't even dare to run the ball in his side for more then a few plays in the whole game. He also requires extra blocking attention which creates room for our other OLB and the D line (offcourse, our guys suck too much to really get an advantage of it).
He had the 2nd(!!) most sacks in the league last season with 19,5(!!!), so an argument of him regressing is invalid. One season with inuries, don't mean that you should trade your best player.. and even with all these injuries, he's having a bigger impact then most passrushers in the whole league. He is still 7th in sacks, which is better then JPP, Hali, Jared Allen, Mario Williams and Dumerville while being the same amount as Julio Peppers. Should they be traded as well?

Also, HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT SPENCER IS AS GOOD, AND THAT BUTLER IS EVEN CLOSE??? that is just wrong.
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Rtnldave


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desperado82 wrote:
Rtnldave wrote:
Desperado82 wrote:
Ware isn't the type of player Belichick would trade. There is a big difference between him and guys like Seymour, Milloy, etc.

The latter were good players who, while considered tops at their positions at different points in their careers, were never considered Hall of Fame type players.

Ware is highly regarded as one of the best pass rushers to ever play the game. He has been mentioned with the likes of Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White, etc. You don't trade those types of players. He has struggled with injuries this year, but yet still remains on the field. He is a team leader and will be a key component in the team having success going forward.

Now, if someone said we should trade Ratliff, a player in that "good but not great" mold, I'd be all for it. Same with Austin. Same with Spencer.



I agree with 100% Des. But I think what some of the guys, including myself, are asking is that would you at least listen to offers and if you did, what would it take? AND if you got what you wanted (within reason, we're not asking for anyone's 1st born here), What long-term benefits do you think that would provide this team and how would it provide them?



Would I listen to offers? Certainly. Any intelligent GM should always be looking to improve their team by any means necessary. I would listen to offers for Witten, Lee, Murray, etc. The only position I don't think you should ever trade is if you have a young, proven franchise QB - as we all know, those are damn hard to find these days.

If I am Jerry and Jason, if some team came along and offered two 1st round picks and as extra incentive a 2nd for Ware I would jump on the opportunity. The last three years this team has hit on each of their first round picks and been lucky with their 2nd round picks in 2010 and 2011, so I would feel comfortable enough in our scouts abilities to recognize talent in order to turn those picks into long-term starters for this team.

When you look at the Cowboys, our needs as of right now are another dependable OG, more depth and talent on the DL, possibly a replacement for Sensabaugh, and I think it's time we start looking for Romo's eventual replacement. If we allow Spencer to walk and in this hypothetical situation trade Ware, having two firsts we would be able to draft one of the many 3-4 OLBs projected to go in this draft as well as address the OL or DL with the extra first. With the additional second, we could address either the OL or DL (the opposite of whichever we take in the 1st) as well as add a talented safety, another OL prospect (a replacement for Free?) or a QB if one with enough potential fell.

I think we could let Albright and Wilber compete for that other OLB spot opposite the new draft pick, and hopefully after adding some talent to the DL, we would see our linebacking corps be able to take advantage of not having opposing lineman in their faces on every play - see the benefits afforded to Aldon Smith playing in San Francisco.



Now you see? That's what I'm talking about. I have no desire to trade Ware either, I'm just saying that if the right offer came along, one you simply could not refuse, would you take it and what would you do with it? I love the post Des, you got my wheels turning.
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The_Slamman


Joined: 07 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DKDALfan wrote:
haven't really read through the thread, but why the fudge trade your best defensive player when your team finally is starting to look like they have a shot at making a couple of deep PO runs??? I would need 3 1st and some later rounders to consider a trade.

- Do you know how important Ware is for our defence? he requires the offence to gameplan around him, often they don't even dare to run the ball in his side for more then a few plays in the whole game. He also requires extra blocking attention which creates room for our other OLB and the D line (offcourse, our guys suck too much to really get an advantage of it).
He had the 2nd(!!) most sacks in the league last season with 19,5(!!!), so an argument of him regressing is invalid. One season with inuries, don't mean that you should trade your best player.. and even with all these injuries, he's having a bigger impact then most passrushers in the whole league. He is still 7th in sacks, which is better then JPP, Hali, Jared Allen, Mario Williams and Dumerville while being the same amount as Julio Peppers. Should they be traded as well?

Also, HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT SPENCER IS AS GOOD, AND THAT BUTLER IS EVEN CLOSE??? that is just wrong.


Nobody is saying that Spencer or Butler are as good (or anybody else for that matter). What we are talking about is the law of diminishing returns. Let's pretend that Ware has his best season next year and breaks the sack record. But, that the sack record and all pro season are again in vane because Dallas is too weak in the trenches and other teams are simply better. What advantage did we gain by keeping Ware? Nothing.

Let's also say that in 2015 Ware will be 33 years old and starts to decline... which is to be expected given years of playing in the NFL and accumulation of injuries, etc.

The question is not whether a 2013 or 2014 rookie could match DeMarcus's Ware's production in 2013/4. The question is whether the rookie could match or exceed DeMarcus Ware's production in 2015 and beyond.

See, right NOW, DeMarcus Ware still has LEGIT trade value. 2 years from now, his trade value will be nonexistent... hence the diminishing returns. If Dallas is not going to be serious contenders over the next 2 years, why keep DWare? So he can put shiny stats for us? Personally, I would rather get as many draft picks as possible and prepare for the future if we are not going to be serious contenders in the next 2 years.

That's why most of us have been saying that this Sunday's game is great measuring stick. The really hard question that people need to answer in brutally honest fashion is whether the Cowboys will be able to seriously compete against ATL, SEA, SF, and even Wash over the next 2 years with our aging vets. If the honest answer to that is "no," why not build for future? Because you can rest assured that around 2015... this team will need some serious rebuilding at key positions.
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Desperado82


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
Nobody is saying that Spencer or Butler are as good (or anybody else for that matter).


boog3083 wrote:
I personally think Spencer is better not to mention younger. We need a few more pieces and trading Ware IMO is how to get those pieces. Look at what KC got for Jerad Allen!! You are crazy to turn down that type of a deal.I also think Butler does as good job, not much worse.



Yes, somebody did say that.


If you want to try and trade Ware because you believe Dallas can get valuable draft picks which they can turn into starters as the team continues to build a long-term playoff contender, then fine.

However, if you want to trade Ware because you believe he is "in decline" or because Spencer or of all people Victor Butler are better players than he, then I am sorry...but that is simply an asinine position.

Butler will be lucky to even be on the team next year, Spencer could very well cash in and never again see the level of production he has had this season. Ware will go down as one of the best pass rushers to ever play the game and very likely will end up in the Hall of Fame someday.
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Last edited by Desperado82 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DKDALfan


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can understand that argument, Slam. I guess your right that it comes down to if you believe in Cowboys as a contender the next couple of years.

- As for Spencer and Butler, somebody is saying that. Look at page 1. He's actually saying that Spencer is even better then Ware, and Butler not that much worse.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desperado82 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Nobody is saying that Spencer or Butler are as good (or anybody else for that matter).


boog3083 wrote:
I personally think Spencer is better not to mention younger. We need a few more pieces and trading Ware IMO is how to get those pieces. Look at what KC got for Jerad Allen!! You are crazy to turn down that type of a deal.I also think Butler does as good job, not much worse.



Yes, somebody did say that.


If you want to try and trade Ware because you believe Dallas can get valuable draft picks which they can turn into starters as the team continues to build a long-term playoff contender, then fine.

However, if you want to trade Ware because you believe he is "in decline" or because Spencer or of all people Victor Butler are better players than he, then I am sorry...but that is simply an asinine position.

Butler will be lucky to even be on the team next year, Spencer could very well cash in and never again see the level of production he has had this season. Ware will go down as one of the best pass rushers to ever play the game and very likely will end up in the Hall of Fame someday.


Wow. Somebody went there??? The guy (Spenser) has one very good year in a contract year and suddenly he's better than Ware??? And BTW, he's not that much younger than Ware either.
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Football Mensa


Joined: 13 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
DKDALfan wrote:
haven't really read through the thread, but why the fudge trade your best defensive player when your team finally is starting to look like they have a shot at making a couple of deep PO runs??? I would need 3 1st and some later rounders to consider a trade.

- Do you know how important Ware is for our defence? he requires the offence to gameplan around him, often they don't even dare to run the ball in his side for more then a few plays in the whole game. He also requires extra blocking attention which creates room for our other OLB and the D line (offcourse, our guys suck too much to really get an advantage of it).
He had the 2nd(!!) most sacks in the league last season with 19,5(!!!), so an argument of him regressing is invalid. One season with inuries, don't mean that you should trade your best player.. and even with all these injuries, he's having a bigger impact then most passrushers in the whole league. He is still 7th in sacks, which is better then JPP, Hali, Jared Allen, Mario Williams and Dumerville while being the same amount as Julio Peppers. Should they be traded as well?

Also, HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT SPENCER IS AS GOOD, AND THAT BUTLER IS EVEN CLOSE??? that is just wrong.


Nobody is saying that Spencer or Butler are as good (or anybody else for that matter). What we are talking about is the law of diminishing returns. Let's pretend that Ware has his best season next year and breaks the sack record. But, that the sack record and all pro season are again in vane because Dallas is too weak in the trenches and other teams are simply better. What advantage did we gain by keeping Ware? Nothing.

Let's also say that in 2015 Ware will be 33 years old and starts to decline... which is to be expected given years of playing in the NFL and accumulation of injuries, etc.

The question is not whether a 2013 or 2014 rookie could match DeMarcus's Ware's production in 2013/4. The question is whether the rookie could match or exceed DeMarcus Ware's production in 2015 and beyond.

See, right NOW, DeMarcus Ware still has LEGIT trade value. 2 years from now, his trade value will be nonexistent... hence the diminishing returns. If Dallas is not going to be serious contenders over the next 2 years, why keep DWare? So he can put shiny stats for us? Personally, I would rather get as many draft picks as possible and prepare for the future if we are not going to be serious contenders in the next 2 years.
That's why most of us have been saying that this Sunday's game is great measuring stick. The really hard question that people need to answer in brutally honest fashion is whether the Cowboys will be able to seriously compete against ATL, SEA, SF, and even Wash over the next 2 years with our aging vets. If the honest answer to that is "no," why not build for future? Because you can rest assured that around 2015... this team will need some serious rebuilding at key positions.


Slam you get it. Ware, Witten , Romo have all put up some great stats. The team has won nothing and hasn't even come close. All have real trade value and could be great chips in a trade. This team has just been spinning it's wheels for years. There isn't any substantial progress. At some point you have to start over so why not start over a little sooner when you can get something for those previously mentioned players ?

Jerry unfortunately doesn't think like that. Look at the 90's team. He held onto players longer than he should have and we have been a disaster ever since. Say each player brought you 2 picks. Say rounds 1 through 4. In addition to the picks we already have and you add in 6 more picks it would expedite the rebuilding process. Also I would'nt want all the picks in 1 draft. I would want to split the picks into a couple of drafts so we would have some leverage in case we're in reach of someone special.

The core of Dallas is aging at a rapid clip and now we are falling even further behind. A few trades could give us a new younger core.
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textaz03


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question that needs to be asked, is there enough talent in the top of this draft to significantly upgrade our team at key positions (Oline, DLine, OLB) with out setting our team back? I mean, sure fire, safe picks. If your trading premier players, you better get some top returns.

IMO, If you are going to trade premier players for picks, you best be able to get the players you covet in the draft. That not only takes a trade partner to pull off the trade for the premier player, but also a trade partner during the draft to move up and get the players you want. You can't settle for best available at your spot.
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cowboyfanin2890


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

textaz03 wrote:
The question that needs to be asked, is there enough talent in the top of this draft to significantly upgrade our team at key positions (Oline, DLine, OLB) with out setting our team back? I mean, sure fire, safe picks. If your trading premier players, you better get some top returns.

IMO, If you are going to trade premier players for picks, you best be able to get the players you covet in the draft. That not only takes a trade partner to pull off the trade for the premier player, but also a trade partner during the draft to move up and get the players you want. You can't settle for best available at your spot.



I doubt any team in the top 15-20 of this draft will give you a first round pick this year for Ware. Remember Al Davis has moved on and cannot make these decisions any more, God rest his soul. To get a comparable talent we would have to package both picks to move up to possibly get Jones from GA, or Mingo from LSU. Then we will still need 2 offensive lineman(minimum), a NT, a safety, and then we need to start drafting to replace the future players that will leave or retire.

Just a little reminder, yes we have drafted better, but we still do not have the best track record with picks in the later rounds coming in every year. Until our 4-7 round picks produce every year we are stuck in mediocrity no matter who is traded or kept.
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Football Mensa


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

textaz03 wrote:
The question that needs to be asked, is there enough talent in the top of this draft to significantly upgrade our team at key positions (Oline, DLine, OLB) with out setting our team back? I mean, sure fire, safe picks. If your trading premier players, you better get some top returns.

IMO, If you are going to trade premier players for picks, you best be able to get the players you covet in the draft. That not only takes a trade partner to pull off the trade for the premier player, but also a trade partner during the draft to move up and get the players you want. You can't settle for best available at your spot.


The more important question is if Dallas can't win with Ware and company what would it take to make Dallas a winner ? I am of the opinion the core has maxed out. I don't think any of the core sees a superbowl in a Dallas uniform. Too many fans think we have to get an exact replica of Ware if we trade him. I don't buy into that. Just having more good players and someone different can do wonders for a team.
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GeneralDissaray


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desperado82 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Nobody is saying that Spencer or Butler are as good (or anybody else for that matter).


boog3083 wrote:
I personally think Spencer is better not to mention younger. We need a few more pieces and trading Ware IMO is how to get those pieces. Look at what KC got for Jerad Allen!! You are crazy to turn down that type of a deal.I also think Butler does as good job, not much worse.



Yes, somebody did say that.


If you want to try and trade Ware because you believe Dallas can get valuable draft picks which they can turn into starters as the team continues to build a long-term playoff contender, then fine.

However, if you want to trade Ware because you believe he is "in decline" or because Spencer or of all people Victor Butler are better players than he, then I am sorry...but that is simply an asinine position.

Butler will be lucky to even be on the team next year, Spencer could very well cash in and never again see the level of production he has had this season. Ware will go down as one of the best pass rushers to ever play the game and very likely will end up in the Hall of Fame someday.


Victor Butler is better.......on special teams
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GeneralDissaray


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Football Mensa wrote:
textaz03 wrote:
The question that needs to be asked, is there enough talent in the top of this draft to significantly upgrade our team at key positions (Oline, DLine, OLB) with out setting our team back? I mean, sure fire, safe picks. If your trading premier players, you better get some top returns.

IMO, If you are going to trade premier players for picks, you best be able to get the players you covet in the draft. That not only takes a trade partner to pull off the trade for the premier player, but also a trade partner during the draft to move up and get the players you want. You can't settle for best available at your spot.


The more important question is if Dallas can't win with Ware and company what would it take to make Dallas a winner ? I am of the opinion the core has maxed out. I don't think any of the core sees a superbowl in a Dallas uniform. Too many fans think we have to get an exact replica of Ware if we trade him. I don't buy into that. Just having more good players and someone different can do wonders for a team.


Why can't Dallas win with Ware? We are one win away from the division, and have Lee, Carter, Ratliff, Brent, and Scandrick out.
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Tony7188


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeneralDissaray wrote:
Football Mensa wrote:
textaz03 wrote:
The question that needs to be asked, is there enough talent in the top of this draft to significantly upgrade our team at key positions (Oline, DLine, OLB) with out setting our team back? I mean, sure fire, safe picks. If your trading premier players, you better get some top returns.

IMO, If you are going to trade premier players for picks, you best be able to get the players you covet in the draft. That not only takes a trade partner to pull off the trade for the premier player, but also a trade partner during the draft to move up and get the players you want. You can't settle for best available at your spot.


The more important question is if Dallas can't win with Ware and company what would it take to make Dallas a winner ? I am of the opinion the core has maxed out. I don't think any of the core sees a superbowl in a Dallas uniform. Too many fans think we have to get an exact replica of Ware if we trade him. I don't buy into that. Just having more good players and someone different can do wonders for a team.


Why can't Dallas win with Ware? We are one win away from the division, and have Lee, Carter, Ratliff, Brent, and Scandrick out.


I can't even believe you mentioned Scandrick Shocked
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