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When will we finally admit Jay isn't it?
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Is Jay the answer at QB?
Yes
89%
 89%  [ 25 ]
No
10%
 10%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 28

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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7858
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
topwop1 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
topwop1 wrote:
Look, I understand some of the frustration that people may have with Cutler and his wildly inconsistent play, but he is far from the problem with this team on offense. While he does make a lot of boneheaded decisions at times there is no denying that Cutler is a special talent and that the Bears would be hard pressed to find an upgrade over him. Please tell me who's out there or who will be available this off season that will be an upgrade over him?

I think the main reason we have yet to see Cutler truly blossom during his tenure in Chicago is because he has constantly been surrounded with poor talent on the offensive line, receiver (minus this year) and bad offensive schemes, not to mention the instability of having to go through 3 different offensive coordinators in four years.

Even though I haven't been impressed with Tice's play calling in his first year as OC, I assume he and the rest of the offense would only benefit from having another year together; however, if the Bears fail to make the playoffs then I think that Emery should just clean house and start fresh with a new coaching staff. This would bring stability for the next 3 or so years by allowing Cutler and co. to develop without having to worry about changing to another scheme any time soon. That's my two cents.


Playoffs or not I think Emery should make this happen. We need a clean slate start rebuilding after the JA regime. He left us a big pile of you know what that will keep Emery shoveling for quite some time
So let me get this straight, you want to get rid of a coach who has, in your scenario, made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years, and likely would have been 3 straight years had we not lost our starting QB and RB for the final 6 and 5 games respectively? While you are admitting that the staff has had an inferior roster to work with? Sure 1 out of 5 years if it happens is bad and gives the Lovie haters at least a legit argument, but 2 out of 3 (and again likely would have been 3 straight) is a completely different story.

I'm all for demoting Tice back to OL (precedent was set w/ Babich) and either promoting Bates to OC or going out and finding another experienced playcaller who fits w/ Jay, but cleaning house? When you have a team that needs to win now? Doesn't make much sense, nor would it happen.



So you want a playoff team? A coach that will get you to the playoffs then get out coached and lose. I think the players want rings and a trophy. I could be mistaken. We have a coach that cant beat the Packers and ultimately you kind of need to compete in your division if you ever want to get to the Bowl If you just want a playoff team thats ok. but to get to that next step we need to beat the packs so we are not hoping every year for other teams to lose and win so we have that slight chance to make it.
Well to win the SuperBowl you have to get to the dance. So yes I want a playoff team. As for being outcoached in the playoffs when did this happen? In 2005?? Yes him choosing to cover Steve Smith w/ his best CB w/ safety help over the top hurt the Bears massively, but what was the alternative? 2006, oh you must mean when Peyton Manning was all Peyton Manning and Rex Grossman, was, well Rex Grossman. Yep Lovie was sure outcoached that day (by his best friend and mentor). Oh I know you mean 2010 when the Packers scored 14 pts in a must win game to even get in the playoffs (they had been avg 30+ over the previous 10 games), only to then come in and score 14 pts on offense again 1 week after putting up 40+ on the Falcons. Lovie's playoff record is 3-3, only going 1 and done once. 2 NFCCGs in 3 playoff attempts is a pretty damn good record in the playoffs. Let's say the Bears make the NFCCG again this year but lose, you now have a coach who has made 3 NFCCGs in 4 playoff trips but hasn't won a SuperBowl. Is that a bad coach? How many coaches do you think are better?


Not that I disagree with any of your comments, but do you really think that Lovie is the only coach capable right now of leading this team to be as successful as they have been? I don't believe that is true. There is a decent core here in place already.

They obviously need more pieces to add to the puzzle but I'm thinking they also need a coach that can be better than Lovie has been to get them over that hump. The defense Lovie runs here in Chicago is pretty basic. They could hire a defensive coordinator who runs a very similar scheme and I don't think much would change on defense.
I think that there are MAYBE 3-5 coaches in the NFL that are better than Lovie Smith. I think there are a lot more talented rosters. For the most part I think the people that want a coaching staff change don't even really believe that Lovie is a bad coach, but want change for the sake of change. I've been around a while, if I say Dave McGinness do you know what I'm talking about? The Bears have had 3 good coaches in their entire history, Halas, Ditka, Smith. And a whole lot of garbage.
That is false most of us see that Smith is only half a coach and we need a whole coach, one who understands AND CAN CONTRIBUTE to the entire team. Say one who understands enough to stress running a QB Sneak when the situation SCREAMS for one.

We are not asking for that much there are probably dozens, scores even hundreds of coaches like this who would respond if given the opportunity. That is the difference between a winning organization and one which just subsists, the ability to spot talent and use it properly. That and a hell of a lot of luck.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pack4life7 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
I think that there are MAYBE 3-5 coaches in the NFL that are better than Lovie Smith. I think there are a lot more talented rosters. For the most part I think the people that want a coaching staff change don't even really believe that Lovie is a bad coach, but want change for the sake of change.


I'd agree with this big time. Lovie is criminally underrated in Chicago and by fans across the league. Great defensive mind who has done more with less than most coaches in the NFL.

Guys I'd rate clearly above him

Bill Belichick
Mike McCarthy
Sean Payton
Jeff Fisher
Too early to tell about Harbaugh in SF but I'm a huge fan. Despite that fact that he's crazy...

Guys who are in Lovie's league and it is a toss up
Mike Tomlin
John Fox (Eh I don't even feel good about this one)

Other than that, I'd take Lovie over every coach in the NFL. Has had overall average talent and not exactly elite coordinators who have gone on to do great things other than Rivera.

If the Bears miss the playoffs this year, firing Lovie would be a gigantic mistake.
If I were a Packer fan I would be praising Smith to the skies. He would never have lasted this long in GB as its coaching history clearly shows.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Badger75 wrote:
Lets try a simple experiment.

Switch Jay Cutler and Aaron Rogers. How long will Rogers thrive with the Bears O-line and WR's? Rodgers would be winning but without any help from his head coach.

Cutler might need to be more judicious with his passes, but then the Packers line might give him the time. The WR's might give him the luxury of frequent completions.

Cutler has yet to operate behind an NFL caliber line with two+ NFL WR's. Wink
Cutler would profit most from having a new head coach under, McCarthy he would be at the top of the league as is Rodgers.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

incognito_man wrote:
You would be a better team with Alex Smith IMO.

He's a great fit for your style. I hope you don't ditch Cutler and acquire him - but it would be a great move if you did.

Safe, smart football. Would fit your defense perfectly.
Unfortunately, we don't have a "style" on offense.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nads786 wrote:
My take is we took a QB who had a lot of promise and turned him into a pile of crap.

He never threw more than 3 ints in a game til he came to the Bears and was a top 3 QB in passing yards.

Now hes a shell of his former self, willing to accept games where he throws for 150 yards.

When he came to Chicago there was a legit debate about who was the better QB Rodgers or Cutler. 4 years later its not even close to a question.

I gotta say I'm pretty bitter about it, but it shows how poorly this organization has been ran and how idiotic we have been to think the QB was the only missing component.

At least I'm a Bulls fan Smile
This was my concern when the trade was made, coaching. At the time I said it was not a fair trade for Cutler but a desperation move by Angelo to save his job. It has worked out a little better that I hoped in terms of his play but certainly not justified the price as yet. He has another year to show that it can.

This is why Smith was also not the first choice by Angelo. Saban turned him down and I believe it was because of the crappy organization. We could have hired Belichick in 1999 but rather went through the blunder with McGinnis and took Jauron. How long would Belichick lasted had we hired him?
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
topwop1 wrote:
Look, I understand some of the frustration that people may have with Cutler and his wildly inconsistent play, but he is far from the problem with this team on offense. While he does make a lot of boneheaded decisions at times there is no denying that Cutler is a special talent and that the Bears would be hard pressed to find an upgrade over him. Please tell me who's out there or who will be available this off season that will be an upgrade over him?

I think the main reason we have yet to see Cutler truly blossom during his tenure in Chicago is because he has constantly been surrounded with poor talent on the offensive line, receiver (minus this year) and bad offensive schemes, not to mention the instability of having to go through 3 different offensive coordinators in four years.

Even though I haven't been impressed with Tice's play calling in his first year as OC, I assume he and the rest of the offense would only benefit from having another year together; however, if the Bears fail to make the playoffs then I think that Emery should just clean house and start fresh with a new coaching staff. This would bring stability for the next 3 or so years by allowing Cutler and co. to develop without having to worry about changing to another scheme any time soon. That's my two cents.


Playoffs or not I think Emery should make this happen. We need a clean slate start rebuilding after the JA regime. He left us a big pile of you know what that will keep Emery shoveling for quite some time
So let me get this straight, you want to get rid of a coach who has, in your scenario, made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years, and likely would have been 3 straight years had we not lost our starting QB and RB for the final 6 and 5 games respectively? While you are admitting that the staff has had an inferior roster to work with? Sure 1 out of 5 years if it happens is bad and gives the Lovie haters at least a legit argument, but 2 out of 3 (and again likely would have been 3 straight) is a completely different story.

I'm all for demoting Tice back to OL (precedent was set w/ Babich) and either promoting Bates to OC or going out and finding another experienced playcaller who fits w/ Jay, but cleaning house? When you have a team that needs to win now? Doesn't make much sense, nor would it happen.



So you want a playoff team? A coach that will get you to the playoffs then get out coached and lose. I think the players want rings and a trophy. I could be mistaken. We have a coach that cant beat the Packers and ultimately you kind of need to compete in your division if you ever want to get to the Bowl If you just want a playoff team thats ok. but to get to that next step we need to beat the packs so we are not hoping every year for other teams to lose and win so we have that slight chance to make it.
Well to win the SuperBowl you have to get to the dance. So yes I want a playoff team. As for being outcoached in the playoffs when did this happen? In 2005?? Yes him choosing to cover Steve Smith w/ his best CB w/ safety help over the top hurt the Bears massively, but what was the alternative? 2006, oh you must mean when Peyton Manning was all Peyton Manning and Rex Grossman, was, well Rex Grossman. Yep Lovie was sure outcoached that day (by his best friend and mentor). Oh I know you mean 2010 when the Packers scored 14 pts in a must win game to even get in the playoffs (they had been avg 30+ over the previous 10 games), only to then come in and score 14 pts on offense again 1 week after putting up 40+ on the Falcons. Lovie's playoff record is 3-3, only going 1 and done once. 2 NFCCGs in 3 playoff attempts is a pretty damn good record in the playoffs. Let's say the Bears make the NFCCG again this year but lose, you now have a coach who has made 3 NFCCGs in 4 playoff trips but hasn't won a SuperBowl. Is that a bad coach? How many coaches do you think are better?
TWO NFCC games in 9 years is not impressive by any means and does not have coaches retained with most teams. Ditka had 7 of 10 years in the playoffs and he was fired. Smith is nowhere near that record and would have been shown the door in most cities.

He doesn't have Angelo to protect him now.
Its funny that you mention that b/c Ditka only had 2 NFCCG appearances in his 10 years, and also coached in an NFL w/ only 28 teams, w/ nearly half of the teams making the playoffs. Lovie coaches in an era where barely 1/3 of the teams make the playoffs. Ditka also coached the pre-salary cap & FA era, what was Ditka's record after those 2 things occurred?

Now let's also look at my scenario I described, it would 3 NFCCG in 9 years. How many coaches have better records? Tom Coughlin? 2 NFCCG in you guessed it 9 years. Sean Payton? 2 NFCCG in 7 years. Mike Smith? Hasn't ever won a playoff game. Mike McCarthy may make his 3rd NFCCG this year but at this point has 2 NFCCG in 7 years. Why did I choose these guys? Well b/c they all have one thing Lovie doesn't, a SuperBowl win (except of course Mike Smith who makes the playoffs every year due to talent his GM gives him). What separates those guys? Could it be they all have elite QBs surrounded w/ talent and elite defenses?
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
That is false most of us see that Smith is only half a coach and we need a whole coach, one who understands AND CAN CONTRIBUTE to the entire team. Say one who understands enough to stress running a QB Sneak when the situation SCREAMS for one.

We are not asking for that much there are probably dozens, scores even hundreds of coaches like this who would respond if given the opportunity. That is the difference between a winning organization and one which just subsists, the ability to spot talent and use it properly. That and a hell of a lot of luck.
What is false is this "most of us" crap your spewing. You and a few select others have that opinion, me and most others on this board share a different opinion. Nothing I said was false, you just have always had a bug up your butt about Smith. What was it you said 3 weeks ago? Oh yeah, the defense has fallen and can't get up. Yep the defense was totally done, that's why in the 3 weeks since you made that statement they've given up 7, 14, & 6 pts. They're completely done.
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ak06max


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
topwop1 wrote:
Look, I understand some of the frustration that people may have with Cutler and his wildly inconsistent play, but he is far from the problem with this team on offense. While he does make a lot of boneheaded decisions at times there is no denying that Cutler is a special talent and that the Bears would be hard pressed to find an upgrade over him. Please tell me who's out there or who will be available this off season that will be an upgrade over him?

I think the main reason we have yet to see Cutler truly blossom during his tenure in Chicago is because he has constantly been surrounded with poor talent on the offensive line, receiver (minus this year) and bad offensive schemes, not to mention the instability of having to go through 3 different offensive coordinators in four years.

Even though I haven't been impressed with Tice's play calling in his first year as OC, I assume he and the rest of the offense would only benefit from having another year together; however, if the Bears fail to make the playoffs then I think that Emery should just clean house and start fresh with a new coaching staff. This would bring stability for the next 3 or so years by allowing Cutler and co. to develop without having to worry about changing to another scheme any time soon. That's my two cents.


Playoffs or not I think Emery should make this happen. We need a clean slate start rebuilding after the JA regime. He left us a big pile of you know what that will keep Emery shoveling for quite some time
So let me get this straight, you want to get rid of a coach who has, in your scenario, made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years, and likely would have been 3 straight years had we not lost our starting QB and RB for the final 6 and 5 games respectively? While you are admitting that the staff has had an inferior roster to work with? Sure 1 out of 5 years if it happens is bad and gives the Lovie haters at least a legit argument, but 2 out of 3 (and again likely would have been 3 straight) is a completely different story.

I'm all for demoting Tice back to OL (precedent was set w/ Babich) and either promoting Bates to OC or going out and finding another experienced playcaller who fits w/ Jay, but cleaning house? When you have a team that needs to win now? Doesn't make much sense, nor would it happen.



So you want a playoff team? A coach that will get you to the playoffs then get out coached and lose. I think the players want rings and a trophy. I could be mistaken. We have a coach that cant beat the Packers and ultimately you kind of need to compete in your division if you ever want to get to the Bowl If you just want a playoff team thats ok. but to get to that next step we need to beat the packs so we are not hoping every year for other teams to lose and win so we have that slight chance to make it.
Well to win the SuperBowl you have to get to the dance. So yes I want a playoff team. As for being outcoached in the playoffs when did this happen? In 2005?? Yes him choosing to cover Steve Smith w/ his best CB w/ safety help over the top hurt the Bears massively, but what was the alternative? 2006, oh you must mean when Peyton Manning was all Peyton Manning and Rex Grossman, was, well Rex Grossman. Yep Lovie was sure outcoached that day (by his best friend and mentor). Oh I know you mean 2010 when the Packers scored 14 pts in a must win game to even get in the playoffs (they had been avg 30+ over the previous 10 games), only to then come in and score 14 pts on offense again 1 week after putting up 40+ on the Falcons. Lovie's playoff record is 3-3, only going 1 and done once. 2 NFCCGs in 3 playoff attempts is a pretty damn good record in the playoffs. Let's say the Bears make the NFCCG again this year but lose, you now have a coach who has made 3 NFCCGs in 4 playoff trips but hasn't won a SuperBowl. Is that a bad coach? How many coaches do you think are better?
TWO NFCC games in 9 years is not impressive by any means and does not have coaches retained with most teams. Ditka had 7 of 10 years in the playoffs and he was fired. Smith is nowhere near that record and would have been shown the door in most cities.

He doesn't have Angelo to protect him now.


Yes thank you was waiting for a realistic response that makes sense.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
topwop1 wrote:
Look, I understand some of the frustration that people may have with Cutler and his wildly inconsistent play, but he is far from the problem with this team on offense. While he does make a lot of boneheaded decisions at times there is no denying that Cutler is a special talent and that the Bears would be hard pressed to find an upgrade over him. Please tell me who's out there or who will be available this off season that will be an upgrade over him?

I think the main reason we have yet to see Cutler truly blossom during his tenure in Chicago is because he has constantly been surrounded with poor talent on the offensive line, receiver (minus this year) and bad offensive schemes, not to mention the instability of having to go through 3 different offensive coordinators in four years.

Even though I haven't been impressed with Tice's play calling in his first year as OC, I assume he and the rest of the offense would only benefit from having another year together; however, if the Bears fail to make the playoffs then I think that Emery should just clean house and start fresh with a new coaching staff. This would bring stability for the next 3 or so years by allowing Cutler and co. to develop without having to worry about changing to another scheme any time soon. That's my two cents.


Playoffs or not I think Emery should make this happen. We need a clean slate start rebuilding after the JA regime. He left us a big pile of you know what that will keep Emery shoveling for quite some time
So let me get this straight, you want to get rid of a coach who has, in your scenario, made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years, and likely would have been 3 straight years had we not lost our starting QB and RB for the final 6 and 5 games respectively? While you are admitting that the staff has had an inferior roster to work with? Sure 1 out of 5 years if it happens is bad and gives the Lovie haters at least a legit argument, but 2 out of 3 (and again likely would have been 3 straight) is a completely different story.

I'm all for demoting Tice back to OL (precedent was set w/ Babich) and either promoting Bates to OC or going out and finding another experienced playcaller who fits w/ Jay, but cleaning house? When you have a team that needs to win now? Doesn't make much sense, nor would it happen.



So you want a playoff team? A coach that will get you to the playoffs then get out coached and lose. I think the players want rings and a trophy. I could be mistaken. We have a coach that cant beat the Packers and ultimately you kind of need to compete in your division if you ever want to get to the Bowl If you just want a playoff team thats ok. but to get to that next step we need to beat the packs so we are not hoping every year for other teams to lose and win so we have that slight chance to make it.
Well to win the SuperBowl you have to get to the dance. So yes I want a playoff team. As for being outcoached in the playoffs when did this happen? In 2005?? Yes him choosing to cover Steve Smith w/ his best CB w/ safety help over the top hurt the Bears massively, but what was the alternative? 2006, oh you must mean when Peyton Manning was all Peyton Manning and Rex Grossman, was, well Rex Grossman. Yep Lovie was sure outcoached that day (by his best friend and mentor). Oh I know you mean 2010 when the Packers scored 14 pts in a must win game to even get in the playoffs (they had been avg 30+ over the previous 10 games), only to then come in and score 14 pts on offense again 1 week after putting up 40+ on the Falcons. Lovie's playoff record is 3-3, only going 1 and done once. 2 NFCCGs in 3 playoff attempts is a pretty damn good record in the playoffs. Let's say the Bears make the NFCCG again this year but lose, you now have a coach who has made 3 NFCCGs in 4 playoff trips but hasn't won a SuperBowl. Is that a bad coach? How many coaches do you think are better?
TWO NFCC games in 9 years is not impressive by any means and does not have coaches retained with most teams. Ditka had 7 of 10 years in the playoffs and he was fired. Smith is nowhere near that record and would have been shown the door in most cities.

He doesn't have Angelo to protect him now.
Its funny that you mention that b/c Ditka only had 2 NFCCG appearances in his 10 years, and also coached in an NFL w/ only 28 teams, w/ nearly half of the teams making the playoffs. Lovie coaches in an era where barely 1/3 of the teams make the playoffs. Ditka also coached the pre-salary cap & FA era, what was Ditka's record after those 2 things occurred?

Now let's also look at my scenario I described, it would 3 NFCCG in 9 years. How many coaches have better records? Tom Coughlin? 2 NFCCG in you guessed it 9 years. Sean Payton? 2 NFCCG in 7 years. Mike Smith? Hasn't ever won a playoff game. Mike McCarthy may make his 3rd NFCCG this year but at this point has 2 NFCCG in 7 years. Why did I choose these guys? Well b/c they all have one thing Lovie doesn't, a SuperBowl win (except of course Mike Smith who makes the playoffs every year due to talent his GM gives him). What separates those guys? Could it be they all have elite QBs surrounded w/ talent and elite defenses?
What ALSO separates these coaches is that the others HAVE A CLUE wrt to offense, ours has NONE. Ditka was so much better than your hero it is ridiculous. Your claim that Smith is the best coach the Bears ever had is beyond ridiculous, almost demented in fact.

McCarthy CONSISTENTLY beats winning teams. Our coach RARELY does. Is there anyone who seriously believes that Smith could take a team as battered and depleted with injuries to and win the Super Bowl as that Packer team on 2010? Could the Bears, under Smith, have EVER gone into NE like MM's team w/o their starter and played like the Pack did under Flynn? NEVER in a million years. Or have his back-up set a team record the next week for passing? The very thought is screamingly funny.

M. Smith is not my favorite but I would trade him for L. Smith without even stopping to catch my breathe. Could our Smith have adapted from Tebow to Manning and be challenging for the top spot? NOPE, not a chance. He can't even make sure plays get to the qB in time to get run properly or make sure a QB Sneak gets called when it is called for. Or even to make sure we run the ball when it is mandatory?

Winning every other year, WITH PERSONNEL HE HAS A HAND IN SELECTING, is not a sign of an elite coach but a mediocre one. Any good coach would be winning with the Bears as they are, not whining about what we lack or having his acolytes trying to blame all failure on Angelo.

There may be a role for mediocrities in the NFL but not on the Bears.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
That is false most of us see that Smith is only half a coach and we need a whole coach, one who understands AND CAN CONTRIBUTE to the entire team. Say one who understands enough to stress running a QB Sneak when the situation SCREAMS for one.

We are not asking for that much there are probably dozens, scores even hundreds of coaches like this who would respond if given the opportunity. That is the difference between a winning organization and one which just subsists, the ability to spot talent and use it properly. That and a hell of a lot of luck.
What is false is this "most of us" crap your spewing. You and a few select others have that opinion, me and most others on this board share a different opinion. Nothing I said was false, you just have always had a bug up your butt about Smith. What was it you said 3 weeks ago? Oh yeah, the defense has fallen and can't get up. Yep the defense was totally done, that's why in the 3 weeks since you made that statement they've given up 7, 14, & 6 pts. They're completely done.
It is 100% true, as I said, that Smith is half a coach at best. When Smith deserves credit, I give it to him and don't blame him for everything that goes wrong. But I see his whole record and ACKNOWLEDGE IT. It is mediocre. It also shows an inability to address long known failures.

The defense has totally collapsed at the wrong time and Seattle and Minn showed that it cannot be depended upon to stop long drives at the critical time. So during the period you reference it was impotent against decent teams. Can it beat tomato cans? Yeah, but that is it. So it staggered to its feet against the worst offense in the league, the Cardinals, very impressive indeed.

Detroit can score points, however, so we are reduced to begging the football gods and GB to get us into the playoffs. After being in the drivers seat half the year.

I have more at stake here in Bears' victories than probably anyone on this board and every loss still hurts me, even knowing that each loss brings Smith's departure that much closer. I would like nothing better than for him to rise out of the mire of mediocrity.

He would be LONG GONE with any other winning organization which will not accept winning every other year.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ak06max wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
topwop1 wrote:
Look, I understand some of the frustration that people may have with Cutler and his wildly inconsistent play, but he is far from the problem with this team on offense. While he does make a lot of boneheaded decisions at times there is no denying that Cutler is a special talent and that the Bears would be hard pressed to find an upgrade over him. Please tell me who's out there or who will be available this off season that will be an upgrade over him?

I think the main reason we have yet to see Cutler truly blossom during his tenure in Chicago is because he has constantly been surrounded with poor talent on the offensive line, receiver (minus this year) and bad offensive schemes, not to mention the instability of having to go through 3 different offensive coordinators in four years.

Even though I haven't been impressed with Tice's play calling in his first year as OC, I assume he and the rest of the offense would only benefit from having another year together; however, if the Bears fail to make the playoffs then I think that Emery should just clean house and start fresh with a new coaching staff. This would bring stability for the next 3 or so years by allowing Cutler and co. to develop without having to worry about changing to another scheme any time soon. That's my two cents.


Playoffs or not I think Emery should make this happen. We need a clean slate start rebuilding after the JA regime. He left us a big pile of you know what that will keep Emery shoveling for quite some time
So let me get this straight, you want to get rid of a coach who has, in your scenario, made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years, and likely would have been 3 straight years had we not lost our starting QB and RB for the final 6 and 5 games respectively? While you are admitting that the staff has had an inferior roster to work with? Sure 1 out of 5 years if it happens is bad and gives the Lovie haters at least a legit argument, but 2 out of 3 (and again likely would have been 3 straight) is a completely different story.

I'm all for demoting Tice back to OL (precedent was set w/ Babich) and either promoting Bates to OC or going out and finding another experienced playcaller who fits w/ Jay, but cleaning house? When you have a team that needs to win now? Doesn't make much sense, nor would it happen.



So you want a playoff team? A coach that will get you to the playoffs then get out coached and lose. I think the players want rings and a trophy. I could be mistaken. We have a coach that cant beat the Packers and ultimately you kind of need to compete in your division if you ever want to get to the Bowl If you just want a playoff team thats ok. but to get to that next step we need to beat the packs so we are not hoping every year for other teams to lose and win so we have that slight chance to make it.
Well to win the SuperBowl you have to get to the dance. So yes I want a playoff team. As for being outcoached in the playoffs when did this happen? In 2005?? Yes him choosing to cover Steve Smith w/ his best CB w/ safety help over the top hurt the Bears massively, but what was the alternative? 2006, oh you must mean when Peyton Manning was all Peyton Manning and Rex Grossman, was, well Rex Grossman. Yep Lovie was sure outcoached that day (by his best friend and mentor). Oh I know you mean 2010 when the Packers scored 14 pts in a must win game to even get in the playoffs (they had been avg 30+ over the previous 10 games), only to then come in and score 14 pts on offense again 1 week after putting up 40+ on the Falcons. Lovie's playoff record is 3-3, only going 1 and done once. 2 NFCCGs in 3 playoff attempts is a pretty damn good record in the playoffs. Let's say the Bears make the NFCCG again this year but lose, you now have a coach who has made 3 NFCCGs in 4 playoff trips but hasn't won a SuperBowl. Is that a bad coach? How many coaches do you think are better?
TWO NFCC games in 9 years is not impressive by any means and does not have coaches retained with most teams. Ditka had 7 of 10 years in the playoffs and he was fired. Smith is nowhere near that record and would have been shown the door in most cities.

He doesn't have Angelo to protect him now.


Yes thank you was waiting for a realistic response that makes sense.
Our friend actually claimed Smith was the best coach the Bears ever had and tried to denigrate THE Coach.
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IronMike84


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Although I feel Lovie should not be extended, he is very, VERY underrated by Bears fans.

2. "Jay's not it" is just a desperate search for answers in a season where the offensive system was just as directionless as it was under Martz.

3. There was really a Russel Wilson reference? We're gonna talk about how great he is after one season?
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
topwop1 wrote:
Look, I understand some of the frustration that people may have with Cutler and his wildly inconsistent play, but he is far from the problem with this team on offense. While he does make a lot of boneheaded decisions at times there is no denying that Cutler is a special talent and that the Bears would be hard pressed to find an upgrade over him. Please tell me who's out there or who will be available this off season that will be an upgrade over him?

I think the main reason we have yet to see Cutler truly blossom during his tenure in Chicago is because he has constantly been surrounded with poor talent on the offensive line, receiver (minus this year) and bad offensive schemes, not to mention the instability of having to go through 3 different offensive coordinators in four years.

Even though I haven't been impressed with Tice's play calling in his first year as OC, I assume he and the rest of the offense would only benefit from having another year together; however, if the Bears fail to make the playoffs then I think that Emery should just clean house and start fresh with a new coaching staff. This would bring stability for the next 3 or so years by allowing Cutler and co. to develop without having to worry about changing to another scheme any time soon. That's my two cents.


Playoffs or not I think Emery should make this happen. We need a clean slate start rebuilding after the JA regime. He left us a big pile of you know what that will keep Emery shoveling for quite some time
So let me get this straight, you want to get rid of a coach who has, in your scenario, made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years, and likely would have been 3 straight years had we not lost our starting QB and RB for the final 6 and 5 games respectively? While you are admitting that the staff has had an inferior roster to work with? Sure 1 out of 5 years if it happens is bad and gives the Lovie haters at least a legit argument, but 2 out of 3 (and again likely would have been 3 straight) is a completely different story.

I'm all for demoting Tice back to OL (precedent was set w/ Babich) and either promoting Bates to OC or going out and finding another experienced playcaller who fits w/ Jay, but cleaning house? When you have a team that needs to win now? Doesn't make much sense, nor would it happen.



So you want a playoff team? A coach that will get you to the playoffs then get out coached and lose. I think the players want rings and a trophy. I could be mistaken. We have a coach that cant beat the Packers and ultimately you kind of need to compete in your division if you ever want to get to the Bowl If you just want a playoff team thats ok. but to get to that next step we need to beat the packs so we are not hoping every year for other teams to lose and win so we have that slight chance to make it.
Well to win the SuperBowl you have to get to the dance. So yes I want a playoff team. As for being outcoached in the playoffs when did this happen? In 2005?? Yes him choosing to cover Steve Smith w/ his best CB w/ safety help over the top hurt the Bears massively, but what was the alternative? 2006, oh you must mean when Peyton Manning was all Peyton Manning and Rex Grossman, was, well Rex Grossman. Yep Lovie was sure outcoached that day (by his best friend and mentor). Oh I know you mean 2010 when the Packers scored 14 pts in a must win game to even get in the playoffs (they had been avg 30+ over the previous 10 games), only to then come in and score 14 pts on offense again 1 week after putting up 40+ on the Falcons. Lovie's playoff record is 3-3, only going 1 and done once. 2 NFCCGs in 3 playoff attempts is a pretty damn good record in the playoffs. Let's say the Bears make the NFCCG again this year but lose, you now have a coach who has made 3 NFCCGs in 4 playoff trips but hasn't won a SuperBowl. Is that a bad coach? How many coaches do you think are better?
TWO NFCC games in 9 years is not impressive by any means and does not have coaches retained with most teams. Ditka had 7 of 10 years in the playoffs and he was fired. Smith is nowhere near that record and would have been shown the door in most cities.

He doesn't have Angelo to protect him now.
Its funny that you mention that b/c Ditka only had 2 NFCCG appearances in his 10 years, and also coached in an NFL w/ only 28 teams, w/ nearly half of the teams making the playoffs. Lovie coaches in an era where barely 1/3 of the teams make the playoffs. Ditka also coached the pre-salary cap & FA era, what was Ditka's record after those 2 things occurred?

Now let's also look at my scenario I described, it would 3 NFCCG in 9 years. How many coaches have better records? Tom Coughlin? 2 NFCCG in you guessed it 9 years. Sean Payton? 2 NFCCG in 7 years. Mike Smith? Hasn't ever won a playoff game. Mike McCarthy may make his 3rd NFCCG this year but at this point has 2 NFCCG in 7 years. Why did I choose these guys? Well b/c they all have one thing Lovie doesn't, a SuperBowl win (except of course Mike Smith who makes the playoffs every year due to talent his GM gives him). What separates those guys? Could it be they all have elite QBs surrounded w/ talent and elite defenses?
What ALSO separates these coaches is that the others HAVE A CLUE wrt to offense, ours has NONE. Ditka was so much better than your hero it is ridiculous. Your claim that Smith is the best coach the Bears ever had is beyond ridiculous, almost demented in fact.

McCarthy CONSISTENTLY beats winning teams. Our coach RARELY does. Is there anyone who seriously believes that Smith could take a team as battered and depleted with injuries to and win the Super Bowl as that Packer team on 2010? Could the Bears, under Smith, have EVER gone into NE like MM's team w/o their starter and played like the Pack did under Flynn? NEVER in a million years. Or have his back-up set a team record the next week for passing? The very thought is screamingly funny.

M. Smith is not my favorite but I would trade him for L. Smith without even stopping to catch my breathe. Could our Smith have adapted from Tebow to Manning and be challenging for the top spot? NOPE, not a chance. He can't even make sure plays get to the qB in time to get run properly or make sure a QB Sneak gets called when it is called for. Or even to make sure we run the ball when it is mandatory?

Winning every other year, WITH PERSONNEL HE HAS A HAND IN SELECTING, is not a sign of an elite coach but a mediocre one. Any good coach would be winning with the Bears as they are, not whining about what we lack or having his acolytes trying to blame all failure on Angelo.

There may be a role for mediocrities in the NFL but not on the Bears.
What the hell does Mike McCoy and the Broncos have to do w/ Mike Smith?

And for all your McCarthy love, he has the same record against .500 or better teams that Lovie Smith does. He has nearly the same record against teams that he trails at the half against as Lovie does.

Just...Stop...
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
It is 100% true, as I said, that Smith is half a coach at best. When Smith deserves credit, I give it to him and don't blame him for everything that goes wrong. But I see his whole record and ACKNOWLEDGE IT. It is mediocre. It also shows an inability to address long known failures.

The defense has totally collapsed at the wrong time and Seattle and Minn showed that it cannot be depended upon to stop long drives at the critical time. So during the period you reference it was impotent against decent teams. Can it beat tomato cans? Yeah, but that is it. So it staggered to its feet against the worst offense in the league, the Cardinals, very impressive indeed.

Detroit can score points, however, so we are reduced to begging the football gods and GB to get us into the playoffs. After being in the drivers seat half the year.

I have more at stake here in Bears' victories than probably anyone on this board and every loss still hurts me, even knowing that each loss brings Smith's departure that much closer. I would like nothing better than for him to rise out of the mire of mediocrity.

He would be LONG GONE with any other winning organization which will not accept winning every other year.
So you are saying the Vikings and Packers are impotent teams now? Ok.....
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ak06max


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ak06max wrote:
topwop1 wrote:
Look, I understand some of the frustration that people may have with Cutler and his wildly inconsistent play, but he is far from the problem with this team on offense. While he does make a lot of boneheaded decisions at times there is no denying that Cutler is a special talent and that the Bears would be hard pressed to find an upgrade over him. Please tell me who's out there or who will be available this off season that will be an upgrade over him?

I think the main reason we have yet to see Cutler truly blossom during his tenure in Chicago is because he has constantly been surrounded with poor talent on the offensive line, receiver (minus this year) and bad offensive schemes, not to mention the instability of having to go through 3 different offensive coordinators in four years.

Even though I haven't been impressed with Tice's play calling in his first year as OC, I assume he and the rest of the offense would only benefit from having another year together; however, if the Bears fail to make the playoffs then I think that Emery should just clean house and start fresh with a new coaching staff. This would bring stability for the next 3 or so years by allowing Cutler and co. to develop without having to worry about changing to another scheme any time soon. That's my two cents.


Playoffs or not I think Emery should make this happen. We need a clean slate start rebuilding after the JA regime. He left us a big pile of you know what that will keep Emery shoveling for quite some time
So let me get this straight, you want to get rid of a coach who has, in your scenario, made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years, and likely would have been 3 straight years had we not lost our starting QB and RB for the final 6 and 5 games respectively? While you are admitting that the staff has had an inferior roster to work with? Sure 1 out of 5 years if it happens is bad and gives the Lovie haters at least a legit argument, but 2 out of 3 (and again likely would have been 3 straight) is a completely different story.

I'm all for demoting Tice back to OL (precedent was set w/ Babich) and either promoting Bates to OC or going out and finding another experienced playcaller who fits w/ Jay, but cleaning house? When you have a team that needs to win now? Doesn't make much sense, nor would it happen.



So you want a playoff team? A coach that will get you to the playoffs then get out coached and lose. I think the players want rings and a trophy. I could be mistaken. We have a coach that cant beat the Packers and ultimately you kind of need to compete in your division if you ever want to get to the Bowl If you just want a playoff team thats ok. but to get to that next step we need to beat the packs so we are not hoping every year for other teams to lose and win so we have that slight chance to make it.
Well to win the SuperBowl you have to get to the dance. So yes I want a playoff team. As for being outcoached in the playoffs when did this happen? In 2005?? Yes him choosing to cover Steve Smith w/ his best CB w/ safety help over the top hurt the Bears massively, but what was the alternative? 2006, oh you must mean when Peyton Manning was all Peyton Manning and Rex Grossman, was, well Rex Grossman. Yep Lovie was sure outcoached that day (by his best friend and mentor). Oh I know you mean 2010 when the Packers scored 14 pts in a must win game to even get in the playoffs (they had been avg 30+ over the previous 10 games), only to then come in and score 14 pts on offense again 1 week after putting up 40+ on the Falcons. Lovie's playoff record is 3-3, only going 1 and done once. 2 NFCCGs in 3 playoff attempts is a pretty damn good record in the playoffs. Let's say the Bears make the NFCCG again this year but lose, you now have a coach who has made 3 NFCCGs in 4 playoff trips but hasn't won a SuperBowl. Is that a bad coach? How many coaches do you think are better?
TWO NFCC games in 9 years is not impressive by any means and does not have coaches retained with most teams. Ditka had 7 of 10 years in the playoffs and he was fired. Smith is nowhere near that record and would have been shown the door in most cities.

He doesn't have Angelo to protect him now.
Its funny that you mention that b/c Ditka only had 2 NFCCG appearances in his 10 years, and also coached in an NFL w/ only 28 teams, w/ nearly half of the teams making the playoffs. Lovie coaches in an era where barely 1/3 of the teams make the playoffs. Ditka also coached the pre-salary cap & FA era, what was Ditka's record after those 2 things occurred?

Now let's also look at my scenario I described, it would 3 NFCCG in 9 years. How many coaches have better records? Tom Coughlin? 2 NFCCG in you guessed it 9 years. Sean Payton? 2 NFCCG in 7 years. Mike Smith? Hasn't ever won a playoff game. Mike McCarthy may make his 3rd NFCCG this year but at this point has 2 NFCCG in 7 years. Why did I choose these guys? Well b/c they all have one thing Lovie doesn't, a SuperBowl win (except of course Mike Smith who makes the playoffs every year due to talent his GM gives him). What separates those guys? Could it be they all have elite QBs surrounded w/ talent and elite defenses?
What ALSO separates these coaches is that the others HAVE A CLUE wrt to offense, ours has NONE. Ditka was so much better than your hero it is ridiculous. Your claim that Smith is the best coach the Bears ever had is beyond ridiculous, almost demented in fact.

McCarthy CONSISTENTLY beats winning teams. Our coach RARELY does. Is there anyone who seriously believes that Smith could take a team as battered and depleted with injuries to and win the Super Bowl as that Packer team on 2010? Could the Bears, under Smith, have EVER gone into NE like MM's team w/o their starter and played like the Pack did under Flynn? NEVER in a million years. Or have his back-up set a team record the next week for passing? The very thought is screamingly funny.

M. Smith is not my favorite but I would trade him for L. Smith without even stopping to catch my breathe. Could our Smith have adapted from Tebow to Manning and be challenging for the top spot? NOPE, not a chance. He can't even make sure plays get to the qB in time to get run properly or make sure a QB Sneak gets called when it is called for. Or even to make sure we run the ball when it is mandatory?

Winning every other year, WITH PERSONNEL HE HAS A HAND IN SELECTING, is not a sign of an elite coach but a mediocre one. Any good coach would be winning with the Bears as they are, not whining about what we lack or having his acolytes trying to blame all failure on Angelo.

There may be a role for mediocrities in the NFL but not on the Bears.
What the hell does Mike McCoy and the Broncos have to do w/ Mike Smith?

And for all your McCarthy love, he has the same record against .500 or better teams that Lovie Smith does. He has nearly the same record against teams that he trails at the half against as Lovie does.

Just...Stop...


McCarthy also has a ring. Green Bay also can keep moving with a lack of starters. If Lovie had a ring right now we wouldnt be discussing this.
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