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Are we phasing out Vernon Davis?
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sherm


Joined: 09 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrissooner49er wrote:
If Harbaugh wanted a "More natural pass catcher", then why did he pass on Coby Fleener?! For TEs, you don't get much better than him at being a "natural pass catcher". So, I think your reasoning is flawed. VD probably has it more correct and you may be overthinking things, IMO.

Still overrating Fleener?
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Forge


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are a few things to this. One, vernon has excellent straight line speed, which is why he gets open on those crossing routes and seam routes...but he doesn't have "shake and bake" ability. In my opinion, for as fast as he is, he has terrible quickness, so I don't think he gets open as much as people believe he does. Two, he was easily Alex's favorite target...through CK era, however, its clear that Kaep prefers Crabs as his security blanket. Some of those plays that VD was the default for Alex have gone away. Also, we are a far more balanced team then teams like New england and green bay who are going to have Rodgers and Brady throw the ball 40 times a game. That is quite a few passes less to spread around than other teams (this is why new england somehow gets welker 8 catches a game and gronk and hernandez/lloyd all have 5). Also, we are far more balanced in our passing game than we have been in years past. For a while, VD was truly the only threat we had...even with Crabs it was like 8 yard pass play with no YAC . The receivers are stepping it up this year (especially crabs). I don't think we are phasing him out so much as phasing everyone else in.
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John232


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vernon is a good receiver and he has shown he can make a catch while gettin smacked. The thing is, he is not natural(good phrasing whoever said that). His biggest deficiency is balance and body control. That's why he'll never be prolific a la Gates/Witten/Gonzales/Jimmy Grahams(sp?)

He's also getting doubled more than anyone else on our team and it's benefiting us a huge amount. especially Crabs and Delaine.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Are we phasing out Vernon Davis? Reply with quote

Miami49er wrote:
I was listening to Maiocco on 957 the game, and he was talking about how Vernon has been non existent and it's not a chemistry issue with Kap like Vernon says. Because before the Chicago game he wasn't getting any catches with Alex either. Not only that, but he's barely targeted. Delanie bleeping Walker gets more targets than VD does. I think Harbaugh wants a more natural pass catcher and good route runner at TE (like a Jason Witten for example) and not necessarily just a freak athlete with stone hands and not a great route runner. I mean, the proof is in the pudding. We're winning games with VD virtually non existent. I kind of agree. I love VD but the past 7 or 8 games have shown we don't need an expensive freak at TE but a more natural pass catching TE like Gronk or Jimmy Graham. You guys think we should or would trade him in the off season. I'm sure we would get a king's ransom for him.



I've been saying for a ocuple years now that Vernon is NOT athletic. He's strong and fast, but not quick, nimble, or particularly coordinated. And his lead hands are going to be an even worse liability with the heat Kap can put on his passes. With VD if it's not put right to his chest, and hopefully floated a bit not drilled, he has a hard time catching it. His speed still created mismatches, and I'm sure he'll still make some big plays for us. But I said for two years I'd rather have good WRs who can make big plays for us and a TE who can reliably get open for first downs or in the red zone - and make solid to great catches when he does get open
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sbrown


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VD has to develop a stronger mentality. you hear the cris carters, michael irvin and jerry rice's of the world talk about how much they enjoyed getting doubled team because it let them know they arrived and how much respect they felt about it. Its obvious that Vd is getting doubled with is allowing single coverage on other areas of the field. But It seems as if VD is pouting about it...Man get up and work on some things to get open. you dont think Graham and gronk get doubled but they work at their routes, defensive coverage etc. If he caught the over the shoulder throw last week he could have had a nice statistical game.
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LANiner


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sherm wrote:
Chrissooner49er wrote:
If Harbaugh wanted a "More natural pass catcher", then why did he pass on Coby Fleener?! For TEs, you don't get much better than him at being a "natural pass catcher". So, I think your reasoning is flawed. VD probably has it more correct and you may be overthinking things, IMO.

Still overrating Fleener?


Its gonna be alright were going to end up picking up one of the stanford TE this draft hopefully toiloto or wat ever his last name is he has the size burst and "natural pass catcher" this offense needs but who is going to replace delanie in our wham packages
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NINERFAN_4_LIFE


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VD was targeted a fair amount of times last week. him and ck just couldnt get their timing down but Im sure they are ironing it out in practice this week. vernon is very dangerous in the seam and we dont call that play enough which makes me think we have been "saving" it for later in the year. we ran it more last week against the pats than we had in previous weeks so I think his targets have a lot to do with who we've played and how they've played him than vernon himself.

On that TD to walker vernon was WIDE OPEN but ck made a really nice decision to hit walker so I dont blame him at all.

I have a feeling we are going to be hearing his name more and more often. I think we will continue to attack the deep part of the field with CK (something I have been begging for since like 2008) and vernon is one of the best deep threats in the game so I highly doubt we get rid of him. His contract isnt too big, I just dont really see a reason too. Maybe if we were rebuilding and we needed to fill some holes but this team has very few needs other than depth/young guys to develop, so I just cant see us bringing anyone in that could do things better than him. we run a lot of 2 TE sets anyways so its not like having him prevents us from having a more "natural" TE

I would only trade vernon for 2 1st round picks at least ... one of which would have to be in the top 5 of this years draft class. I dont see any team willing to part with that
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NINERFAN_4_LIFE


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VD was targeted a fair amount of times last week. him and ck just couldnt get their timing down but Im sure they are ironing it out in practice this week. vernon is very dangerous in the seam and we dont call that play enough which makes me think we have been "saving" it for later in the year. we ran it more last week against the pats than we had in previous weeks so I think his targets have a lot to do with who we've played and how they've played him than vernon himself.

On that TD to walker vernon was WIDE OPEN but ck made a really nice decision to hit walker so I dont blame him at all.

I have a feeling we are going to be hearing his name more and more often. I think we will continue to attack the deep part of the field with CK (something I have been begging for since like 2008) and vernon is one of the best deep threats in the game so I highly doubt we get rid of him. His contract isnt too big, I just dont really see a reason too. Maybe if we were rebuilding and we needed to fill some holes but this team has very few needs other than depth/young guys to develop, so I just cant see us bringing anyone in that could do things better than him. we run a lot of 2 TE sets anyways so its not like having him prevents us from having a more "natural" TE

I would only trade vernon for 2 1st round picks at least ... one of which would have to be in the top 5 of this years draft class. I dont see any team willing to part with that
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NinerNation21


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sherm wrote:
Chrissooner49er wrote:
If Harbaugh wanted a "More natural pass catcher", then why did he pass on Coby Fleener?! For TEs, you don't get much better than him at being a "natural pass catcher". So, I think your reasoning is flawed. VD probably has it more correct and you may be overthinking things, IMO.

Still overrating Fleener?


Yea seriously. Fleener looks like he will be good but jeez, there is a serious man crush here for this guy. Even if we drafted him, he wouldn't play much at all this year. Next year he would presumably take Walker's PT but even then, its still not a ton of PT. No one would ever be happy unless we focused the whole offense around this guy.
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Chrissooner49er


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NinerNation21 wrote:
sherm wrote:
Chrissooner49er wrote:
If Harbaugh wanted a "More natural pass catcher", then why did he pass on Coby Fleener?! For TEs, you don't get much better than him at being a "natural pass catcher". So, I think your reasoning is flawed. VD probably has it more correct and you may be overthinking things, IMO.

Still overrating Fleener?


Yea seriously. Fleener looks like he will be good but jeez, there is a serious man crush here for this guy. Even if we drafted him, he wouldn't play much at all this year. Next year he would presumably take Walker's PT but even then, its still not a ton of PT. No one would ever be happy unless we focused the whole offense around this guy.


Just using that to illustrate the flaw in the original thought process that started this thread, gentlemen. Nothing more. Rolling Eyes
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sbrown


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VD opens up alot of other receivers whcih in turn as they produce then the double teams on vd will open him back up. he just has to make some of the catches coming his way.
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49ersfan2152


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hes one of the best TES in the league an needs to be used more. He is a good blocker an that is a big plus. I think Harb does wish he had a TE who can fit him better. If trade him if u arnt gonna use him more but only for a high pick or good player in return.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

49ersfan2152 wrote:
Hes one of the best TES in the league an needs to be used more. He is a good blocker an that is a big plus. I think Harb does wish he had a TE who can fit him better. If trade him if u arnt gonna use him more but only for a high pick or good player in return.



How often are non-QBs traded for good return? Even for QBs, it's rare, and takes a poorly managed team like the raiders to pull the trigger. We'd never get a first round pick for VD, or a player in return, let's get real. His biggest value is on the field, not on the trading block.
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FG21_PW52


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

he's not going anywhere until he becomes unhappy and openly displays it in the locker room. But I would still like one of Stanford's TEs in the draft, Ertz or Toiliololiol.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
49ersfan2152 wrote:
Hes one of the best TES in the league an needs to be used more. He is a good blocker an that is a big plus. I think Harb does wish he had a TE who can fit him better. If trade him if u arnt gonna use him more but only for a high pick or good player in return.



How often are non-QBs traded for good return? Even for QBs, it's rare, and takes a poorly managed team like the raiders to pull the trigger. We'd never get a first round pick for VD, or a player in return, let's get real. His biggest value is on the field, not on the trading block.
thats because when teams part with a good player it's because of either character issues or am injury. That's not the case with VD at all. So I'm sure we can get a first round pick from a team that needs a TE. And I'm not saying we should trade him or that I want him traded. Just saying I think Harbaugh doesn't think he's a fit for his offense and he might deal him if he can get the TE he wants.
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