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Philip Wheeler
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roninho wrote:
Chali21 wrote:
Roninho wrote:
if he signs a contract valued as a below average starter i'd really like to have him coming back. It means a spot less to fill for which we did not overpay.

Him as a starter, Burris as a rotational guy. Means we still have to find 2 other starters.


I don't think he's a below average starter, and I don't think he should be paid as such. I mean if it were me working at my job that pays 10 an hour and I was doing a good job at it, although I make mistakes here and there but nothing huge, and my boss comes up to me and says that he's paying me 8.50. I'm gonna say duces homie and go somewhere else.

Like BP says we need role players and he fits the profile. What we really need is super stars on every level.
sorry, i meant "fair market value". If you think he is an average starter then he shoukd get an average starter money contract. So i agree with you in that respect, however imo he isnt on of top 15 in his position, but lower= Below average.


This is the little bit of sense very rarely made around here.

Even if you look pretty good out there, if there are 15 guys out there at your position better than you it is the definition of below average. We are so used to utter abysmal failure that Raider fans tend to not have perspective on things.
The general issue is that while you think your guy is good, there's a 50/50 chance you are playing a team every single week that has a guy who is better. And better wins the game. So yes, he is below average. But so is the rest of our D, and some worse than Wheeler by far. Which is why we keep him, because there are bigger fish to fry.

If he wants to be paid on a long term deal like an above average starter, let him walk. If he wants to be reasonable on a 2-3 year deal with easy outs, keep him around.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
As said, he gets a lot of crap around here from some posters. They have some legit points but imo are kind of nitpicky with the guy. He makes at least as many plays as he lets up and plays with nice intensity. He seems like a good character guy. He gets beat in coverage sometimes but usually makes up for it with a nice tackle or a good blitzing effort. I'd be a little disappointed if he isn't brought back, but it wouldn't break my heart. He's not he kind of player we should move on from with the way our roster imo.


this. he is def not the worst lb on the roster and arguably the best imo.
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


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This is football, not pussology 101
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigMike1b wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
He's not elite. Therefore he is a worthless below average player that if the Raiders resign on a 2-3 year deal I am going to scream.

#amidoingright


Wait. Is this a sarcastic reply from the person who thinks releasing Pat Lee was ok cause Reggie said he wants dominate players on the field.


Pipe down Laughing

Cutting Lee to see what the younger guys have was totally a logical decision.

Sometimes things make too much sense for people.


Point remains the same. We are going to have dominate players all over the field. Lee was performing better than anyone else at the time. I dont care about Lee at all. Im just saying using the logic its ok to cut Lee cause he wasnt dominate was silly. Wheeler is ok. He is average. If he is the best starter on your defense, your defense is probably garbage. If he is the worse starter on your defense your defense is probably darn good.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
BigMike1b wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
He's not elite. Therefore he is a worthless below average player that if the Raiders resign on a 2-3 year deal I am going to scream.

#amidoingright


Wait. Is this a sarcastic reply from the person who thinks releasing Pat Lee was ok cause Reggie said he wants dominate players on the field.


Pipe down Laughing

Cutting Lee to see what the younger guys have was totally a logical decision.

Sometimes things make too much sense for people.


Point remains the same. We are going to have dominate players all over the field. Lee was performing better than anyone else at the time. I dont care about Lee at all. Im just saying using the logic its ok to cut Lee cause he wasnt dominate was silly. Wheeler is ok. He is average. If he is the best starter on your defense, your defense is probably garbage. If he is the worse starter on your defense your defense is probably darn good.


We really don't know the logic behind cutting Lee, the dominant thing was only what McKenzie said to a reporter. Just because he said it doesn't make it the whole story.
And even if true, why would we not want a GM whose desire is to get dominant players all over the field? I would have to assume they cut him not only because he wasn't dominant, but they felt he never had a chance to be. Can't argue with the move, because I already like what Phillip Adams has done more in just 2 games. Every CB this team cut sucked or close enough to suck that it doesn't matter anyway. The 2 (3) guys added that we have left - Adams and Ross (Hanson) - look clearly to be the best of them.
I'd say Ross is alot closer to dominant than Lee, even if he is very far from dominant. Dude played like 7 positions for us so far, and hasn't crapped out once at any of them. I seriously don't remember one outright bad play from the guy yet. Good enough for me for now for a mid season nothing practice squad pickup, ultimately and down the chain made at the expense of Pat Lee.
If we could replace Coye Francies with another Brandian Ross, we're on our way forward. I imagine that isn't far off either. If anything this staff has shown a capacity to move on from a guy relatively quickly if he doesn't get anything done, and for us that's a good thing.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which leads things back to Wheeler. I really don't think he's a guy any of us need to worry about at this time. He'll probably be signed if the deal is fair. And he'll do, for now. If he starts going backward, he'll get dumped and replaced till someone better comes along. Just like the rest of the garbage once and currently populating this roster.
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RaiderX


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Which leads things back to Wheeler. I really don't think he's a guy any of us need to worry about at this time. He'll probably be signed if the deal is fair. And he'll do, for now. If he starts going backward, he'll get dumped and replaced till someone better comes along. Just like the rest of the garbage once and currently populating this roster.


He's got a career high in tackles so I wouldn't be shocked if he asks for more especially from us. If we can keep him for the same value this season for another year or two, I'm fine with it. I'd love to get a more impactful run defender at SLB this season, but if we can't, whatever.

Really want Daryl Smith. He's making his season debut this week coming off injury so we'll see what he can bring. Bargain type guy with higher value.
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BigMike1b


Joined: 27 Apr 2008
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Location: 626, CA
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RaiderX wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Which leads things back to Wheeler. I really don't think he's a guy any of us need to worry about at this time. He'll probably be signed if the deal is fair. And he'll do, for now. If he starts going backward, he'll get dumped and replaced till someone better comes along. Just like the rest of the garbage once and currently populating this roster.


He's got a career high in tackles so I wouldn't be shocked if he asks for more especially from us. If we can keep him for the same value this season for another year or two, I'm fine with it. I'd love to get a more impactful run defender at SLB this season, but if we can't, whatever.

Really want Daryl Smith. He's making his season debut this week coming off injury so we'll see what he can bring. Bargain type guy with higher value.


You don't think JAX, with their talent deficiency, is going to want to bring him back? I can't see him leaving.
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oakdb36


Joined: 01 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Good enough for me for now for a mid season nothing practice squad pickup, ultimately and down the chain made at the expense of Pat Lee.


We could play Ross while Lee was still on the roster. We cut Lee when Bartell came back from IR, only to cut Bartell a few weeks later. Which is basically what we did with Curry as well. Notice how no one is complaining we cut Bartell.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Good enough for me for now for a mid season nothing practice squad pickup, ultimately and down the chain made at the expense of Pat Lee.


We could play Ross while Lee was still on the roster. We cut Lee when Bartell came back from IR, only to cut Bartell a few weeks later. Which is basically what we did with Curry as well. Notice how no one is complaining we cut Bartell.


We could do whatever we wanted with personnel and cuts, but you can't play them all. Ross is playing Lee's role and then some. And playing it better. End of story, and the non-descript end of Pat Lee. Believe me, we will survive the deep loss that is Pat Lee.

Now I know what McKenzie meant when he said he wished Pat Lee was more dominant. He meant to say he cut Pat Lee and it's no big freaking deal, because he's just not that good and probably never will be. Except a GM really can't go into a press conference and burn a guy by saying he cut him because he's just not very good and cutting him doesn't matter. McKenzie said exactly that, the nicest way he could as a professional. Let it go. Ross is already better and he's done next to nothing in this league.
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RaiderX


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Good enough for me for now for a mid season nothing practice squad pickup, ultimately and down the chain made at the expense of Pat Lee.


We could play Ross while Lee was still on the roster. We cut Lee when Bartell came back from IR, only to cut Bartell a few weeks later. Which is basically what we did with Curry as well. Notice how no one is complaining we cut Bartell.


We could do whatever we wanted with personnel and cuts, but you can't play them all. Ross is playing Lee's role and then some. And playing it better. End of story, and the non-descript end of Pat Lee. Believe me, we will survive the deep loss that is Pat Lee.

Now I know what McKenzie meant when he said he wished Pat Lee was more dominant. He meant to say he cut Pat Lee and it's no big freaking deal, because he's just not that good and probably never will be. Except a GM really can't go into a press conference and burn a guy by saying he cut him because he's just not very good and cutting him doesn't matter. McKenzie said exactly that, the nicest way he could as a professional. Let it go. Ross is already better and he's done next to nothing in this league.


+1. Lee has 1 tackle in 4 games with Detroit. Seriously who cares?

OVERRATING players.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RaiderX wrote:
holyghost wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Good enough for me for now for a mid season nothing practice squad pickup, ultimately and down the chain made at the expense of Pat Lee.


We could play Ross while Lee was still on the roster. We cut Lee when Bartell came back from IR, only to cut Bartell a few weeks later. Which is basically what we did with Curry as well. Notice how no one is complaining we cut Bartell.


We could do whatever we wanted with personnel and cuts, but you can't play them all. Ross is playing Lee's role and then some. And playing it better. End of story, and the non-descript end of Pat Lee. Believe me, we will survive the deep loss that is Pat Lee.

Now I know what McKenzie meant when he said he wished Pat Lee was more dominant. He meant to say he cut Pat Lee and it's no big freaking deal, because he's just not that good and probably never will be. Except a GM really can't go into a press conference and burn a guy by saying he cut him because he's just not very good and cutting him doesn't matter. McKenzie said exactly that, the nicest way he could as a professional. Let it go. Ross is already better and he's done next to nothing in this league.


+1. Lee has 1 tackle in 4 games with Detroit. Seriously who cares?

OVERRATING players.


If we don't cling to players of Lee's caliber what else do we have to do week to week (for the last 10 years)?
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RaiderX


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
holyghost wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Good enough for me for now for a mid season nothing practice squad pickup, ultimately and down the chain made at the expense of Pat Lee.


We could play Ross while Lee was still on the roster. We cut Lee when Bartell came back from IR, only to cut Bartell a few weeks later. Which is basically what we did with Curry as well. Notice how no one is complaining we cut Bartell.


We could do whatever we wanted with personnel and cuts, but you can't play them all. Ross is playing Lee's role and then some. And playing it better. End of story, and the non-descript end of Pat Lee. Believe me, we will survive the deep loss that is Pat Lee.

Now I know what McKenzie meant when he said he wished Pat Lee was more dominant. He meant to say he cut Pat Lee and it's no big freaking deal, because he's just not that good and probably never will be. Except a GM really can't go into a press conference and burn a guy by saying he cut him because he's just not very good and cutting him doesn't matter. McKenzie said exactly that, the nicest way he could as a professional. Let it go. Ross is already better and he's done next to nothing in this league.


+1. Lee has 1 tackle in 4 games with Detroit. Seriously who cares?

OVERRATING players.


If we don't cling to players of Lee's caliber what else do we have to do week to week (for the last 10 years)?


IDK. I usually stare at the Raiderettes.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RaiderX wrote:
holyghost wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Good enough for me for now for a mid season nothing practice squad pickup, ultimately and down the chain made at the expense of Pat Lee.


We could play Ross while Lee was still on the roster. We cut Lee when Bartell came back from IR, only to cut Bartell a few weeks later. Which is basically what we did with Curry as well. Notice how no one is complaining we cut Bartell.


We could do whatever we wanted with personnel and cuts, but you can't play them all. Ross is playing Lee's role and then some. And playing it better. End of story, and the non-descript end of Pat Lee. Believe me, we will survive the deep loss that is Pat Lee.

Now I know what McKenzie meant when he said he wished Pat Lee was more dominant. He meant to say he cut Pat Lee and it's no big freaking deal, because he's just not that good and probably never will be. Except a GM really can't go into a press conference and burn a guy by saying he cut him because he's just not very good and cutting him doesn't matter. McKenzie said exactly that, the nicest way he could as a professional. Let it go. Ross is already better and he's done next to nothing in this league.


+1. Lee has 1 tackle in 4 games with Detroit. Seriously who cares?

OVERRATING players.


um nobody.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Ross is playing Lee's role and then some. And playing it better. End of story, and the non-descript end of Pat Lee. Believe me, we will survive the deep loss that is Pat Lee.


Again, this isn't about Pat Lee, this is about cutting player(s) to make room for player(s) who ended up being cut a couple weeks later as well.
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91jmay


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ So? How is that in any way a bad thing. The team sucks, i'd much rather us roll the dice on any other corner because we know what we have (almost nothing) in Pat Lee. He might stick and show promise. He might not. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
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