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Philip Wheeler
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5772
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No idea what Wimbley's stats for that were or are. It's PFF stuff. I know Wheeler is up at the top, it's just a relatively small sample size because he doesn't rush as much.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 21611
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
He's not elite. Therefore he is a worthless below average player that if the Raiders resign on a 2-3 year deal I am going to scream.

#amidoingright


Wait. Is this a sarcastic reply from the person who thinks releasing Pat Lee was ok cause Reggie said he wants dominate players on the field.
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RaiderX


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 20545
Location: Crown Town, CA
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
H's had his ups and down. Not as good as most on here, including myself thought. Overrated in coverage but you can at least appreciate the effort at times. Its easy to say we should keep him because he's been the least crappy but I think we can upgrade at SLB in free agency. I like Daryl Smith. Coming off an injury but was Jacksonville's best LB. We've had so much crap at SLB the past few seasons I don't think we should settle. I don't mind Wheeler as depth, but I don't want him as a starter over the long run.


Noone is suggesting him as a fix long term. Really, I don't think anyone has.

Considering in order to actually have a good defense we need to add perhaps 6 guys at other positions - starters - and 3 true impact players, replacing Wheeler is the nearly the least of our worries at this point. At least for a year, maybe two. Bigger question marks loom at MLB, DT (NT esp.), DE, CB, FS. The issue that needs to get through here is that - does anyone think we can realistically replace all of those players with much better players in one offseason, and THEN after that is done easy as pie, be able to replace Wheeler as well? Not gonna happen like that. Not unless we somehow miraculously replicate the Steeler late 70's draft when they grabbed 4 HOFers... In real terms, and this is really all anyone is saying, Wheeler will pretty much have to do for now and it could be (and it has been) worse.


I meant 2-3 years. Wheeler will more than likely be back though. Tough to replace those positions in one season. It sounds like Huff will return as well at FS next season so we can scratch that off. Wheeler was on a 1 year deal so "replacing" him doesn't sound like the difficult task. The front 7 is gonna be the focal point this season. There will be plenty of Wheeler-type players in free agency. Wheeler may be the least of our worries but he's certainly replaceable and you can find better options in FA.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5772
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RaiderX wrote:
holyghost wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
H's had his ups and down. Not as good as most on here, including myself thought. Overrated in coverage but you can at least appreciate the effort at times. Its easy to say we should keep him because he's been the least crappy but I think we can upgrade at SLB in free agency. I like Daryl Smith. Coming off an injury but was Jacksonville's best LB. We've had so much crap at SLB the past few seasons I don't think we should settle. I don't mind Wheeler as depth, but I don't want him as a starter over the long run.


Noone is suggesting him as a fix long term. Really, I don't think anyone has.

Considering in order to actually have a good defense we need to add perhaps 6 guys at other positions - starters - and 3 true impact players, replacing Wheeler is the nearly the least of our worries at this point. At least for a year, maybe two. Bigger question marks loom at MLB, DT (NT esp.), DE, CB, FS. The issue that needs to get through here is that - does anyone think we can realistically replace all of those players with much better players in one offseason, and THEN after that is done easy as pie, be able to replace Wheeler as well? Not gonna happen like that. Not unless we somehow miraculously replicate the Steeler late 70's draft when they grabbed 4 HOFers... In real terms, and this is really all anyone is saying, Wheeler will pretty much have to do for now and it could be (and it has been) worse.


I meant 2-3 years. Wheeler will more than likely be back though. Tough to replace those positions in one season. It sounds like Huff will return as well at FS next season so we can scratch that off. Wheeler was on a 1 year deal so "replacing" him doesn't sound like the difficult task. The front 7 is gonna be the focal point this season. There will be plenty of Wheeler-type players in free agency. Wheeler may be the least of our worries but he's certainly replaceable and you can find better options in FA.


Quite possibly. But you find more risk as well with it.
How many starters can you replace before it reaches a tipping point and a period of time of poor execution is not only expected but guaranteed? Just because so many new players need that time with eachother and the system? What is the tipping point?

Plugging in guys is doable for many good defenses. But major overhauls always require time, and automatic difficulty during that time. I would say plugging is 1, 2, maybe 3 guys. Beyond that, it constitutes an overhaul. Does it really help us to make it worse or bigger by adding someone equal to Wheeler in FA, just because someone else is out there? The only real reason to move on from Wheeler this year is if the guy just wants way too much money for what he is. And that is not really in McKenzie's control.
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RaiderX


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
holyghost wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
H's had his ups and down. Not as good as most on here, including myself thought. Overrated in coverage but you can at least appreciate the effort at times. Its easy to say we should keep him because he's been the least crappy but I think we can upgrade at SLB in free agency. I like Daryl Smith. Coming off an injury but was Jacksonville's best LB. We've had so much crap at SLB the past few seasons I don't think we should settle. I don't mind Wheeler as depth, but I don't want him as a starter over the long run.


Noone is suggesting him as a fix long term. Really, I don't think anyone has.

Considering in order to actually have a good defense we need to add perhaps 6 guys at other positions - starters - and 3 true impact players, replacing Wheeler is the nearly the least of our worries at this point. At least for a year, maybe two. Bigger question marks loom at MLB, DT (NT esp.), DE, CB, FS. The issue that needs to get through here is that - does anyone think we can realistically replace all of those players with much better players in one offseason, and THEN after that is done easy as pie, be able to replace Wheeler as well? Not gonna happen like that. Not unless we somehow miraculously replicate the Steeler late 70's draft when they grabbed 4 HOFers... In real terms, and this is really all anyone is saying, Wheeler will pretty much have to do for now and it could be (and it has been) worse.


I meant 2-3 years. Wheeler will more than likely be back though. Tough to replace those positions in one season. It sounds like Huff will return as well at FS next season so we can scratch that off. Wheeler was on a 1 year deal so "replacing" him doesn't sound like the difficult task. The front 7 is gonna be the focal point this season. There will be plenty of Wheeler-type players in free agency. Wheeler may be the least of our worries but he's certainly replaceable and you can find better options in FA.


Quite possibly. But you find more risk as well with it.
How many starters can you replace before it reaches a tipping point and a period of time of poor execution is not only expected but guaranteed? Just because so many new players need that time with eachother and the system? What is the tipping point?

Plugging in guys is doable for many good defenses. But major overhauls always require time, and automatic difficulty during that time. I would say plugging is 1, 2, maybe 3 guys. Beyond that, it constitutes an overhaul. Does it really help us to make it worse or bigger by adding someone equal to Wheeler in FA, just because someone else is out there? The only real reason to move on from Wheeler this year is if the guy just wants way too much money for what he is. And that is not really in McKenzie's control.


So another 1 year deal for him? I wouldn't be shocked if someone tried to pay him more just based off tackling numbers. To me I'd keep him as depth because we'be severely lacked it there for years. I know we can't replace everyone in one year. There will be contracts we'll be stuck with. 3-4 starters is what he changed from last year I don't see why the 2nd year won't have more. If we have to keep him because he's cheap, fine.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 14292
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:

What was Wimbley's stat for successes per rush? I feel like he applied more consistent pressure on QB's and we didn't have to sacrifice coverage to get it.


Iirc, he was 6th in the league in QB pressures through 10 games last season. That' just a stat i remember stumbling upon at that point so i can't give you the stat for the whole season.

Dessie wrote:
Been a real positive for our defense. He gets beat at times in coverage (just like any other LB) and he is no world beater but he is a solid player which we are sadly lacking in. Stepped up to be the play caller on defense due to the ineptness of McClain. I dread to think what we would have been like without him. Hopefully we resign him this team needs more players with his attitude.


This.
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 3176
Location: Cali
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Philip Wheeler Reply with quote

bmore4life815 wrote:
Overall, has he had a good year for you guys? He really struggled against us (particularly in coverage), but I've heard some Raiders fans praise his energy and think that he's been the defensive MVP (having seen Lamarr Houston this year a few times, I'd have to disagree on that).

Thanks in advance.


As you can see feelings about wheeler( and just about every other raider) range from "He's pretty good" to "He was the second shooter on the grassy knoll".
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Djackson205


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 245
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheeler has been our best defensive player. He has been our best cover linebacker and our best pass rusher. Pro football focus has him at 27 QB pressures, which is 2nd best of any 4-3 outside of linebacker. Only one ahead of him is Von Miller, and he is 9 ahead of any other outside backer. I don't understand the hate, he obviously displays talent and playmaking ability.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22612
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
He's not elite. Therefore he is a worthless below average player that if the Raiders resign on a 2-3 year deal I am going to scream.

#amidoingright


Wait. Is this a sarcastic reply from the person who thinks releasing Pat Lee was ok cause Reggie said he wants dominate players on the field.


Lee is not an NFL starter. Wheeler is. That simple. I'm not crying over cutting a mediocre CB with no ST value.
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OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 10096
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
He's not elite. Therefore he is a worthless below average player that if the Raiders resign on a 2-3 year deal I am going to scream.

#amidoingright


Wait. Is this a sarcastic reply from the person who thinks releasing Pat Lee was ok cause Reggie said he wants dominate players on the field.


Cutting Lee was ok
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BigMike1b


Joined: 27 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
He's not elite. Therefore he is a worthless below average player that if the Raiders resign on a 2-3 year deal I am going to scream.

#amidoingright


Wait. Is this a sarcastic reply from the person who thinks releasing Pat Lee was ok cause Reggie said he wants dominate players on the field.


Pipe down Laughing

Cutting Lee to see what the younger guys have was totally a logical decision.

Sometimes things make too much sense for people.
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Roninho


Joined: 10 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if he signs a contract valued as a below average starter i'd really like to have him coming back. It means a spot less to fill for which we did not overpay.

Him as a starter, Burris as a rotational guy. Means we still have to find 2 other starters.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
He's not elite. Therefore he is a worthless below average player that if the Raiders resign on a 2-3 year deal I am going to scream.

#amidoingright




He's not even starter material. There is a reason the guy could only got a 1 year deal from an NFL team. Just because our team is full of terrible players doesn't mean we should cream our pants because we have slightly better than terrible player on the defense. There is no doubt we should be looking to replace him, if we can't due to cap than fair enough, give him another year maximum.


But your boy Slowlando McClain is right? We get, you loved Slowlando and seeing as he was a huge failure you feel the need to pour it on Wheeler because fans support him.

Sorry Slowlando burned you. Laughing Laughing
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Chali21


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roninho wrote:
if he signs a contract valued as a below average starter i'd really like to have him coming back. It means a spot less to fill for which we did not overpay.

Him as a starter, Burris as a rotational guy. Means we still have to find 2 other starters.


I don't think he's a below average starter, and I don't think he should be paid as such. I mean if it were me working at my job that pays 10 an hour and I was doing a good job at it, although I make mistakes here and there but nothing huge, and my boss comes up to me and says that he's paying me 8.50. I'm gonna say duces homie and go somewhere else.

Like BP says we need role players and he fits the profile. What we really need is super stars on every level.
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Roninho


Joined: 10 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chali21 wrote:
Roninho wrote:
if he signs a contract valued as a below average starter i'd really like to have him coming back. It means a spot less to fill for which we did not overpay.

Him as a starter, Burris as a rotational guy. Means we still have to find 2 other starters.


I don't think he's a below average starter, and I don't think he should be paid as such. I mean if it were me working at my job that pays 10 an hour and I was doing a good job at it, although I make mistakes here and there but nothing huge, and my boss comes up to me and says that he's paying me 8.50. I'm gonna say duces homie and go somewhere else.

Like BP says we need role players and he fits the profile. What we really need is super stars on every level.
sorry, i meant "fair market value". If you think he is an average starter then he shoukd get an average starter money contract. So i agree with you in that respect, however imo he isnt on of top 15 in his position, but lower= Below average.
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