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Philip Wheeler
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Oaktown


Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 3250
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is decent. Has good/bad games. Always gives it his all. Gets beat in coverage at times. Good role player
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22746
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's not elite. Therefore he is a worthless below average player that if the Raiders resign on a 2-3 year deal I am going to scream.

#amidoingright
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 34004
Location: Boston, MA
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
He's not elite. Therefore he is a worthless below average player that if the Raiders resign on a 2-3 year deal I am going to scream.

#amidoingright


#amidoingitright*

So, no. Wink



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Dessie


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 4765
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been a real positive for our defense. He gets beat at times in coverage (just like any other LB) and he is no world beater but he is a solid player which we are sadly lacking in. Stepped up to be the play caller on defense due to the ineptness of McClain. I dread to think what we would have been like without him. Hopefully we resign him this team needs more players with his attitude.
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bitty wrote:
I don't understand why everybody thinks Green Bay is the pinnacle of NFL franchises?
In my opinion they are a joke. In the last ten years there drafts sucked.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22746
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
He's not elite. Therefore he is a worthless below average player that if the Raiders resign on a 2-3 year deal I am going to scream.

#amidoingright


#amidoingitright*

So, no. Wink



Laughing



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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 34004
Location: Boston, MA
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
He's not elite. Therefore he is a worthless below average player that if the Raiders resign on a 2-3 year deal I am going to scream.

#amidoingright


#amidoingitright*

So, no. Wink



Laughing




You don't have to pretend to rape me because you screwed up.
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raidr4life


Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 4406
Location: Fresno, California
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
He's not elite. Therefore he is a worthless below average player that if the Raiders resign on a 2-3 year deal I am going to scream.

#amidoingright
Exactly guys who think we can have elite players at every position are dreaming. And he has potential to better with another year in the defense and hopefully the addition of better talent on defense this offseason.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oaktown wrote:
He is decent. Has good/bad games. Always gives it his all. Gets beat in coverage at times. Good role player


By far the most important part of the equation for us at this point, coming off being a team whose talent was often greater than it's effort. The first step in a true rebuild of the team we knew, effort. That's the seed of getting leadership around here. Unquestioned effort.

All the Wheeler nitpickers in the world can never point to his effort as a reason not to keep him. That's the common factor with all the guys we cleaned house on, all the guys about to have their houses cleaned, and all the positive additions we have made even if they are few. Effort. So, Wheeler stays hopefully. I don't think we are at the point where we have the resources to replace him - knowing there is so much else to replace first.
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Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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Location: Dublin
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
He's not elite. Therefore he is a worthless below average player that if the Raiders resign on a 2-3 year deal I am going to scream.

#amidoingright




He's not even starter material. There is a reason the guy could only got a 1 year deal from an NFL team. Just because our team is full of terrible players doesn't mean we should cream our pants because we have slightly better than terrible player on the defense. There is no doubt we should be looking to replace him, if we can't due to cap than fair enough, give him another year maximum.
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Imagine if EricAllen21 posted better. Just imagine.
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RaiderX


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

H's had his ups and down. Not as good as most on here, including myself thought. Overrated in coverage but you can at least appreciate the effort at times. Its easy to say we should keep him because he's been the least crappy but I think we can upgrade at SLB in free agency. I like Daryl Smith. Coming off an injury but was Jacksonville's best LB. We've had so much crap at SLB the past few seasons I don't think we should settle. I don't mind Wheeler as depth, but I don't want him as a starter over the long run.
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Yea, RaiderX wins. We can all just top acting like this is a matter of opinion. MY GOD.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RaiderX wrote:
H's had his ups and down. Not as good as most on here, including myself thought. Overrated in coverage but you can at least appreciate the effort at times. Its easy to say we should keep him because he's been the least crappy but I think we can upgrade at SLB in free agency. I like Daryl Smith. Coming off an injury but was Jacksonville's best LB. We've had so much crap at SLB the past few seasons I don't think we should settle. I don't mind Wheeler as depth, but I don't want him as a starter over the long run.


Noone is suggesting him as a fix long term. Really, I don't think anyone has.

Considering in order to actually have a good defense we need to add perhaps 6 guys at other positions - starters - and 3 true impact players, replacing Wheeler is the nearly the least of our worries at this point. At least for a year, maybe two. Bigger question marks loom at MLB, DT (NT esp.), DE, CB, FS. The issue that needs to get through here is that - does anyone think we can realistically replace all of those players with much better players in one offseason, and THEN after that is done easy as pie, be able to replace Wheeler as well? Not gonna happen like that. Not unless we somehow miraculously replicate the Steeler late 70's draft when they grabbed 4 HOFers... In real terms, and this is really all anyone is saying, Wheeler will pretty much have to do for now and it could be (and it has been) worse.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another tidbit of perspective.

Wimbley and Wheeler are on par with eachother as far as performance. Wheeler is equal or better defending run and (especially) pass, AND equally successful as a pass rusher.

Put that in perspective, and then consider one guy made 10 mil on a long term contract and cost a 4th round pick. The other was a vet minimum paid free agent pickup. We pretty much upgraded the position for 1/10th the price and it cost no draft pick.

Whether or not Wheeler is a long term fix, and noone expects him to be, these are the kind of moves we need to be making present and future. Low cost, good value, doesn't hurt future or current player development and drafting.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 34004
Location: Boston, MA
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is how I feel:
holyghost wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
H's had his ups and down. Not as good as most on here, including myself thought. Overrated in coverage but you can at least appreciate the effort at times. Its easy to say we should keep him because he's been the least crappy but I think we can upgrade at SLB in free agency. I like Daryl Smith. Coming off an injury but was Jacksonville's best LB. We've had so much crap at SLB the past few seasons I don't think we should settle. I don't mind Wheeler as depth, but I don't want him as a starter over the long run.


Noone is suggesting him as a fix long term. Really, I don't think anyone has.

Considering in order to actually have a good defense we need to add perhaps 6 guys at other positions - starters - and 3 true impact players, replacing Wheeler is the nearly the least of our worries at this point. At least for a year, maybe two. Bigger question marks loom at MLB, DT (NT esp.), DE, CB, FS. The issue that needs to get through here is that - does anyone think we can realistically replace all of those players with much better players in one offseason, and THEN after that is done easy as pie, be able to replace Wheeler as well? Not gonna happen like that. Not unless we somehow miraculously replicate the Steeler late 70's draft when they grabbed 4 HOFers... In real terms, and this is really all anyone is saying, Wheeler will pretty much have to do for now and it could be (and it has been) worse.


This, not so much:
holyghost wrote:
Here's another tidbit of perspective.

Wimbley and Wheeler are on par with eachother as far as performance. Wheeler is equal or better defending run and (especially) pass, AND equally successful as a pass rusher.


I don't know how you can say Wheeler is on Wimbley's level as a pass rusher. Wimbley didn't boast a large repertoire of pass rushing moves, but he did get to the QB much more often. And he did it from a 3 point stance to boot.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
This is how I feel:
holyghost wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
H's had his ups and down. Not as good as most on here, including myself thought. Overrated in coverage but you can at least appreciate the effort at times. Its easy to say we should keep him because he's been the least crappy but I think we can upgrade at SLB in free agency. I like Daryl Smith. Coming off an injury but was Jacksonville's best LB. We've had so much crap at SLB the past few seasons I don't think we should settle. I don't mind Wheeler as depth, but I don't want him as a starter over the long run.


Noone is suggesting him as a fix long term. Really, I don't think anyone has.

Considering in order to actually have a good defense we need to add perhaps 6 guys at other positions - starters - and 3 true impact players, replacing Wheeler is the nearly the least of our worries at this point. At least for a year, maybe two. Bigger question marks loom at MLB, DT (NT esp.), DE, CB, FS. The issue that needs to get through here is that - does anyone think we can realistically replace all of those players with much better players in one offseason, and THEN after that is done easy as pie, be able to replace Wheeler as well? Not gonna happen like that. Not unless we somehow miraculously replicate the Steeler late 70's draft when they grabbed 4 HOFers... In real terms, and this is really all anyone is saying, Wheeler will pretty much have to do for now and it could be (and it has been) worse.


This, not so much:
holyghost wrote:
Here's another tidbit of perspective.

Wimbley and Wheeler are on par with eachother as far as performance. Wheeler is equal or better defending run and (especially) pass, AND equally successful as a pass rusher.


I don't know how you can say Wheeler is on Wimbley's level as a pass rusher. Wimbley didn't boast a large repertoire of pass rushing moves, but he did get to the QB much more often. And he did it from a 3 point stance to boot.


I disagree.
Wimbley rushed the pass far more often. He boasted 7 sacks, 4 in 1 game vs. a 3rd string left tackle on a really bad Oline who struggled against everyone, rushing every down. Fine, 7 is much better than 3. But for the other 15 games, 3=3.

Not only that, but Wheeler has had a high rate of success rushing the passer in regards to his success per rush. One of the highest rates of success in the league. Now I don't put much stock in those stats or stats in general. But I do watch the games, and when he rushes Wheeler seems to find his way to the QB reasonably well. Whereas Wimbley was a ghost more often than not. The rate of success thing bears out in watching the games.

Wimbley boasted one move, let's not kid ourselves. And it only worked on LTs susceptible to it. And he played alot more time in a 3 point stance than Wheeler does, with little to show for it in comparison. Wimbley was the king of padding his stats with one big game a year, probably against players who just represented a feast of a bad matchup with the outside speed duck move.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 34004
Location: Boston, MA
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
This is how I feel:
holyghost wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
H's had his ups and down. Not as good as most on here, including myself thought. Overrated in coverage but you can at least appreciate the effort at times. Its easy to say we should keep him because he's been the least crappy but I think we can upgrade at SLB in free agency. I like Daryl Smith. Coming off an injury but was Jacksonville's best LB. We've had so much crap at SLB the past few seasons I don't think we should settle. I don't mind Wheeler as depth, but I don't want him as a starter over the long run.


Noone is suggesting him as a fix long term. Really, I don't think anyone has.

Considering in order to actually have a good defense we need to add perhaps 6 guys at other positions - starters - and 3 true impact players, replacing Wheeler is the nearly the least of our worries at this point. At least for a year, maybe two. Bigger question marks loom at MLB, DT (NT esp.), DE, CB, FS. The issue that needs to get through here is that - does anyone think we can realistically replace all of those players with much better players in one offseason, and THEN after that is done easy as pie, be able to replace Wheeler as well? Not gonna happen like that. Not unless we somehow miraculously replicate the Steeler late 70's draft when they grabbed 4 HOFers... In real terms, and this is really all anyone is saying, Wheeler will pretty much have to do for now and it could be (and it has been) worse.


This, not so much:
holyghost wrote:
Here's another tidbit of perspective.

Wimbley and Wheeler are on par with eachother as far as performance. Wheeler is equal or better defending run and (especially) pass, AND equally successful as a pass rusher.


I don't know how you can say Wheeler is on Wimbley's level as a pass rusher. Wimbley didn't boast a large repertoire of pass rushing moves, but he did get to the QB much more often. And he did it from a 3 point stance to boot.


I disagree.
Wimbley rushed the pass far more often. He boasted 7 sacks, 4 in 1 game vs. a 3rd string left tackle on a really bad Oline who struggled against everyone, rushing every down. Fine, 7 is much better than 3. But for the other 15 games, 3=3.

Not only that, but Wheeler has had a high rate of success rushing the passer in regards to his success per rush. One of the highest rates of success in the league. Now I don't put much stock in those stats or stats in general. But I do watch the games, and when he rushes Wheeler seems to find his way to the QB reasonably well. Whereas Wimbley was a ghost more often than not. The rate of success thing bears out in watching the games.

Wimbley boasted one move, let's not kid ourselves. And it only worked on LTs susceptible to it. And he played alot more time in a 3 point stance than Wheeler does, with little to show for it in comparison. Wimbley was the king of padding his stats with one big game a year, probably against players who just represented a feast of a bad matchup with the outside speed duck move.


What was Wimbley's stat for successes per rush? I feel like he applied more consistent pressure on QB's and we didn't have to sacrifice coverage to get it.
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