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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
Chip Kelly in the NFL is a bad idea.
We do not know this AT ALL. I'll bet you everything I own that he can create an offense that scores more than 14 pts from the very first game.
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Chip Kelly in the NFL is a bad idea.
We do not know this AT ALL. I'll bet you everything I own that he can create an offense that scores more than 14 pts from the very first game.


That I think is the argument for him is that he is clearly an offensive genius and while he may not be able to run the exact system he could create one that works.

We would have to live with growing pains and some time retooling.

Kelly to me has always been the Sean Payton of college, not saying he will translate to the NFL.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Chip Kelly in the NFL is a bad idea.


I am not disagreeing but why specifically don't you think he will work?

I agree with MM. The reason his offense works so well in college is the same reason it probably wont in the NFL IMO. He rotates in a TON of subs due to the frenetic pace of play (I remember seeing somewhere he uses some 30+ guys on just offense throughout a game), and NFL teams only usually have about 22 or 23 offensive players active on game day. Kelly's offense also requires an elite running QB. For most NFL teams (the Bears being one of them) the QB isn't an elite runner, and even if a team has one Kelly's offense will lead that player to a far shorter career due to the amount of hits his QBs take, which that player will not like.

Just seems like a college offense to me. A great college offense, but still a college offense.
He won't use the same offense in the pros. Can he design plays? - Yes. Can he utilize the available talent? - Yes. Can he develop offensive players? - Yes. Can he call a damn QB Sneak? - Yes.

I'm sure the same complaints were made against Harbaugh last year. His team has the most creative offense outside NE and it runs "college" plays, even high school. Plays are plays and will work anywhere given the right situation. That is the translation which has to be made, knowing what to do when. It isn't like certain plays cannot work in the pros just because colleges use them. You know, like the unheard of (by the Bears) QB Sneak. It is an exotic trick play only known to a few.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Chip Kelly in the NFL is a bad idea.


I am not disagreeing but why specifically don't you think he will work?

I agree with MM. The reason his offense works so well in college is the same reason it probably wont in the NFL IMO. He rotates in a TON of subs due to the frenetic pace of play (I remember seeing somewhere he uses some 30+ guys on just offense throughout a game), and NFL teams only usually have about 22 or 23 offensive players active on game day. Kelly's offense also requires an elite running QB. For most NFL teams (the Bears being one of them) the QB isn't an elite runner, and even if a team has one Kelly's offense will lead that player to a far shorter career due to the amount of hits his QBs take, which that player will not like.

Just seems like a college offense to me. A great college offense, but still a college offense.


I wonder how different his system is from the up tempo stuff the Patriots are doing?

I understand the exact system would not work, but what about an offensive genius to adapt and create an NFL system.

What would people think about a variation of the Chip Kelly offence?

Depends on the nature of the variation. It would need to take a lot of the running QB stuff out and really slow the pace down - his teams are really successful because they outscore teams but their defense is constantly gassed and as the OU fan posted above they sub a ton on defense too and NFL teams just don't have the depth to ensure that. He definitely has a good offensive mind though and I would think he could come up with something that would succeed in the NFL. I just think it would look far different than what he does now. My previous comment about whether he would be a good hire was specific to the current OU scheme.

I don't see Kelly ending up here anyway because it's going to take a king's ransom to leave OU and the Bears have never wanted to pay their coaches before success with the Bears.
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Chip Kelly in the NFL is a bad idea.


I am not disagreeing but why specifically don't you think he will work?

I agree with MM. The reason his offense works so well in college is the same reason it probably wont in the NFL IMO. He rotates in a TON of subs due to the frenetic pace of play (I remember seeing somewhere he uses some 30+ guys on just offense throughout a game), and NFL teams only usually have about 22 or 23 offensive players active on game day. Kelly's offense also requires an elite running QB. For most NFL teams (the Bears being one of them) the QB isn't an elite runner, and even if a team has one Kelly's offense will lead that player to a far shorter career due to the amount of hits his QBs take, which that player will not like.

Just seems like a college offense to me. A great college offense, but still a college offense.


I wonder how different his system is from the up tempo stuff the Patriots are doing?

I understand the exact system would not work, but what about an offensive genius to adapt and create an NFL system.

What would people think about a variation of the Chip Kelly offence?

Depends on the nature of the variation. It would need to take a lot of the running QB stuff out and really slow the pace down - his teams are really successful because they outscore teams but their defense is constantly gassed and as the OU fan posted above they sub a ton on defense too and NFL teams just don't have the depth to ensure that. He definitely has a good offensive mind though and I would think he could come up with something that would succeed in the NFL. I just think it would look far different than what he does now. My previous comment about whether he would be a good hire was specific to the current OU scheme.

I don't see Kelly ending up here anyway because it's going to take a king's ransom to leave OU and the Bears have never wanted to pay their coaches before success with the Bears.


I just like the idea of an offensive genius.

And I know what the Bears have done in the last but things seem to be different under George McCaskey as I wrote a out in another thread.
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Chip Kelly in the NFL is a bad idea.


I am not disagreeing but why specifically don't you think he will work?

I agree with MM. The reason his offense works so well in college is the same reason it probably wont in the NFL IMO. He rotates in a TON of subs due to the frenetic pace of play (I remember seeing somewhere he uses some 30+ guys on just offense throughout a game), and NFL teams only usually have about 22 or 23 offensive players active on game day. Kelly's offense also requires an elite running QB. For most NFL teams (the Bears being one of them) the QB isn't an elite runner, and even if a team has one Kelly's offense will lead that player to a far shorter career due to the amount of hits his QBs take, which that player will not like.

Just seems like a college offense to me. A great college offense, but still a college offense.


AZ has nailed two of my reasons…

1. No team in the NFL (even the Pats) play at such a high tempo
2. Very few teams in the NFL have the type of QB needed to run the scheme

The 3rd reason for me is a lot of that offence is based on being able to stretch plays horizontally because they have elite speed that can take them to the outside and most importantly around the corner against college defences…IMO that wouldn’t work nearly as well against NFL D…look at a guy like Reggie Bush who in college got to the outside and was gone…his first few years in the NFL he was terrible because team D speed in the NFL is so much better than in college…he had to completely readapt his game to have any kind of success…

The 4th reason for me is who has Chip Kelly put into the NFL from his offence that has been successful?…there are very few Oregon offensive players who has had any real success in the pros…a few RBs and ?

I agree with AZ that it is a great college offence…but I just don’t see it working in the NFL.
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skatebeanz


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Chip Kelly in the NFL is a bad idea.


I am not disagreeing but why specifically don't you think he will work?

I agree with MM. The reason his offense works so well in college is the same reason it probably wont in the NFL IMO. He rotates in a TON of subs due to the frenetic pace of play (I remember seeing somewhere he uses some 30+ guys on just offense throughout a game), and NFL teams only usually have about 22 or 23 offensive players active on game day. Kelly's offense also requires an elite running QB. For most NFL teams (the Bears being one of them) the QB isn't an elite runner, and even if a team has one Kelly's offense will lead that player to a far shorter career due to the amount of hits his QBs take, which that player will not like.

Just seems like a college offense to me. A great college offense, but still a college offense.


AZ has nailed two of my reasons…

1. No team in the NFL (even the Pats) play at such a high tempo
2. Very few teams in the NFL have the type of QB needed to run the scheme

The 3rd reason for me is a lot of that offence is based on being able to stretch plays horizontally because they have elite speed that can take them to the outside and most importantly around the corner against college defences…IMO that wouldn’t work nearly as well against NFL D…look at a guy like Reggie Bush who in college got to the outside and was gone…his first few years in the NFL he was terrible because team D speed in the NFL is so much better than in college…he had to completely readapt his game to have any kind of success…

The 4th reason for me is who has Chip Kelly put into the NFL from his offence that has been successful?…there are very few Oregon offensive players who has had any real success in the pros…a few RBs and ?

I agree with AZ that it is a great college offence…but I just don’t see it working in the NFL.
To be fair he hasn't had the talent some others had. He had Jonathan Stewart who had 1800 yards at UO****. He also had Max Unger the starting Center for Seattle. Ed Dickson who was a second round pick was his TE in 2010. Oregon doesn't get elite recruits. When they do they go pro. He has 2 future first rounders on his team this year. TE Colt Lyerla and RB/APB/WR De'Anthony Thomas. Plus they have a OG who could be a 2-3 round pick this year, Kyle Long.
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skatebeanz


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Chip Kelly in the NFL is a bad idea.


I am not disagreeing but why specifically don't you think he will work?

I agree with MM. The reason his offense works so well in college is the same reason it probably wont in the NFL IMO. He rotates in a TON of subs due to the frenetic pace of play (I remember seeing somewhere he uses some 30+ guys on just offense throughout a game), and NFL teams only usually have about 22 or 23 offensive players active on game day. Kelly's offense also requires an elite running QB. For most NFL teams (the Bears being one of them) the QB isn't an elite runner, and even if a team has one Kelly's offense will lead that player to a far shorter career due to the amount of hits his QBs take, which that player will not like.

Just seems like a college offense to me. A great college offense, but still a college offense.


I wonder how different his system is from the up tempo stuff the Patriots are doing?

I understand the exact system would not work, but what about an offensive genius to adapt and create an NFL system.

What would people think about a variation of the Chip Kelly offence?

Depends on the nature of the variation. It would need to take a lot of the running QB stuff out and really slow the pace down - his teams are really successful because they outscore teams but their defense is constantly gassed and as the OU fan posted above they sub a ton on defense too and NFL teams just don't have the depth to ensure that. He definitely has a good offensive mind though and I would think he could come up with something that would succeed in the NFL. I just think it would look far different than what he does now. My previous comment about whether he would be a good hire was specific to the current OU scheme.

I don't see Kelly ending up here anyway because it's going to take a king's ransom to leave OU and the Bears have never wanted to pay their coaches before success with the Bears.
I see a Redskin type offense with Patriot Tempo.
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skatebeanz wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Chip Kelly in the NFL is a bad idea.


I am not disagreeing but why specifically don't you think he will work?

I agree with MM. The reason his offense works so well in college is the same reason it probably wont in the NFL IMO. He rotates in a TON of subs due to the frenetic pace of play (I remember seeing somewhere he uses some 30+ guys on just offense throughout a game), and NFL teams only usually have about 22 or 23 offensive players active on game day. Kelly's offense also requires an elite running QB. For most NFL teams (the Bears being one of them) the QB isn't an elite runner, and even if a team has one Kelly's offense will lead that player to a far shorter career due to the amount of hits his QBs take, which that player will not like.

Just seems like a college offense to me. A great college offense, but still a college offense.


AZ has nailed two of my reasons…

1. No team in the NFL (even the Pats) play at such a high tempo
2. Very few teams in the NFL have the type of QB needed to run the scheme

The 3rd reason for me is a lot of that offence is based on being able to stretch plays horizontally because they have elite speed that can take them to the outside and most importantly around the corner against college defences…IMO that wouldn’t work nearly as well against NFL D…look at a guy like Reggie Bush who in college got to the outside and was gone…his first few years in the NFL he was terrible because team D speed in the NFL is so much better than in college…he had to completely readapt his game to have any kind of success…

The 4th reason for me is who has Chip Kelly put into the NFL from his offence that has been successful?…there are very few Oregon offensive players who has had any real success in the pros…a few RBs and ?

I agree with AZ that it is a great college offence…but I just don’t see it working in the NFL.
To be fair he hasn't had the talent some others had. He had Jonathan Stewart who had 1800 yards at UO****. He also had Max Unger the starting Center for Seattle. Ed Dickson who was a second round pick was his TE in 2010. Oregon doesn't get elite recruits. When they do they go pro. He has 2 future first rounders on his team this year. TE Colt Lyerla and RB/APB/WR De'Anthony Thomas. Plus they have a OG who could be a 2-3 round pick this year, Kyle Long.


Stewart sure…Unger is a solid player…Dickers was a 3rd round pick who was decent as a rookie but has really fallen off this year…that doesn’t say to me that NFL evaluators feel that guys who excel in that Oregon offence will do much in the NFL…now that could be down to talent but it could also be very much so down to them not believing what they are seeing them do on tape will transfer to the pros.
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are assuming that he will run the exact same offence.

Can we not also assume that he is an offensive genius and could adaptor create a system for us?

I want the closest thing to Sean Payton we can get, because he out coaches just about everyone he plays.
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
We are assuming that he will run the exact same offence.

Can we not also assume that he is an offensive genius and could adaptor create a system for us?

I want the closest thing to Sean Payton we can get, because he out coaches just about everyone he plays.


The only factual evidence we have is that his system is what it is…I’m not saying he couldn’t design a scheme to concur the NFL…I’m just saying on what I have seen of his scheme I don’t think it could win in the NFL as is.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
Stewart sure…Unger is a solid player…Dickers was a 3rd round pick who was decent as a rookie but has really fallen off this year…that doesn’t say to me that NFL evaluators feel that guys who excel in that Oregon offence will do much in the NFL…now that could be down to talent but it could also be very much so down to them not believing what they are seeing them do on tape will transfer to the pros.
Unger signed a contract to be the third highest paid Center in the NFL. But most of why they don't get drafted is because they don't have the size needed for NFL. His #1 WR in 2010 was a 6'0 WR who was a DB 3 years prior. His TE last year ran a 4.81 while not being very big. If he had Gronk and Julio Jones they would be drafted high (because both those guys are the exact type of players Chip wants). Unfortunately they didn't.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skatebeanz wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Stewart sure…Unger is a solid player…Dickers was a 3rd round pick who was decent as a rookie but has really fallen off this year…that doesn’t say to me that NFL evaluators feel that guys who excel in that Oregon offence will do much in the NFL…now that could be down to talent but it could also be very much so down to them not believing what they are seeing them do on tape will transfer to the pros.
Unger signed a contract to be the third highest paid Center in the NFL. But most of why they don't get drafted is because they don't have the size needed for NFL. His #1 WR in 2010 was a 6'0 WR who was a DB 3 years prior. His TE last year ran a 4.81 while not being very big. If he had Gronk and Julio Jones they would be drafted high (because both those guys are the exact type of players Chip wants). Unfortunately they didn't.


Unger got paid top 3 money….but would you really say he is a top 3-5 centre in the NFL?…IMO no…I get that he doesn’t always have the best talent to work with but at the same time in 2010 Oregon had the #13 ranked recruiting class in the country…2011 it was #11…2012 #15…it’s not like he is getting no talent through the doors to put back out to the NFL.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
Unger got paid top 3 money….but would you really say he is a top 3-5 centre in the NFL?…IMO no…I get that he doesn’t always have the best talent to work with but at the same time in 2010 Oregon had the #13 ranked recruiting class in the country…2011 it was #11…2012 #15…it’s not like he is getting no talent through the doors to put back out to the NFL.
Those guys are just now draft eligible and no one is coming out. The highest rated recruit transferred to Baylor. A 4* RB transferred to another school and the 4* TE stopped playing football due to injuries. The 4* QB is a backup not because he is bad but because the guy in front of him is being talked about in the draft forum as a possible top 10 pick in a few years. That is 4 of the 11 4*+'s they have.

The other ones you mentioned have first round talent but are not eligible. The 2011 class has 2 first round picks I mentioned (De'Anthony Thomas and Colt Lyerla their highest rated recruits).
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
We are assuming that he will run the exact same offence.

Can we not also assume that he is an offensive genius and could adaptor create a system for us?

I want the closest thing to Sean Payton we can get, because he out coaches just about everyone he plays.


The only factual evidence we have is that his system is what it is…I’m not saying he couldn’t design a scheme to concur the NFL…I’m just saying on what I have seen of his scheme I don’t think it could win in the NFL as is.


I agree that it is a risk.

But it is a risk that could pay off big time if he can be our version of Sean Payton.

If we are going to reclaim the NFC North we need to be bold with a new hire.

That being said I would prefer an NFL guy.
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