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Why do many fans have a negative perception of A.J Hawk?
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HyponGrey


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDN40 wrote:
I was in the Vernon Davis camp.
"Can't play with 'em. Can't win with 'em... I'd rather play with ten men..."
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palmy50


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point of view on Hawk has not changed over the years. I don't love him from a play for pay/value point of view but feel he is a very sound starting LB that could start on any team in the NFL.

One needs to remember two things when it comes to that draft pick also. 1) Go back to that time period. TT could not miss. 2) Hawk was also drafted to be a Will LB in a forty front. Much higher board premium on that guy than a 30 Mike.

Hawk looked every bit the part in that role also and very well could have developed into a star. Mike LB in a 30 front is all about feel. Will LB in a 40 is all about finding the football and running it down. Hawk sure looks the part there on paper with his rare size/speed combo and well above average motor.

The money thing is what it is also. The market would have been strong for Hawk. Man can play in ANY look, comes to work every day, and is as clean as they come. The more hands in the pot, the more the money ties go up. At that point TT had to make a choice. Pay your 30 Mike like a premium Will, or lose him. Can't say I blame TT one bit for giving him that bank.
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SDN40


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrBobGray wrote:
SDN40 wrote:
I remember Robert Francois posting more game changing positive plays in 6 games than Hawk has in 6 years. For years everyone defended Hawk by saying he wasn't asked to make plays. As hilarious as that was to hear it wasn't until an article surfaced where Winston Moss criticized Hawk for ..... wait for it ........ not making plays, that those silly words stopped showing up here.

Its no secret that I am not a Hawk fan. I was in the Vernon Davis camp. Hawk's ceiling had already been reached and scouts mentioned while his 40 time was fine, he was stiff as a board. He's been a 2x4 ever since. He has mastered making those tackles 7 yards down field though.


Really? He posted a 6.82 cone and a 3.96 SS. That short shuttle is one of the fastest times I've ever seen for a LB. To put it in perspective, it would have placed him 4th at this year's combine, among all positions. He would have been .06 seconds slower than Casey Heyward, who had the best time. His 6.82 would have been the fastest time by a LB at this year's combine. He also had a 40 inch vert, and I've never seen anyone say he was stiff as a board. I did find this:

Quote:
Positives: Has a thick upper body with broad shoulders, tight waist, good bubble and excellent timed speed for his position Has loose hips and above average balance, keeping his feet on the move Shows natural knee bend and has a sudden burst coming off the edge to defeat the lethargic offensive tackle Has the athletic agility, loose hips, valid speed and a strong desire to take on receivers in man coverage Plays with a quick, controlled backpedal, showing the looseness in his hips to open and play the ball


But your mind is already made up so I'll let you run with that.

Hawk has 11.5 career sacks, 8 career INTs, and is on pace to join the 20/20 club if he has a decently long career. No, he doesn't make the kind of splash plays that some other LBs do. No, he hasn't been truly elite. But then again, you were a member of the Vernon Davis club, so let's look at his big numbers:

0 1000 yard seasons
1 10+ TD season
career best 78 catches in a season
averages 12.6 YPC, 49 catches, 617 yards, 5.7 TD/season

Boy, those are some terrifying numbers. How could we possibly do without that kind of monster production?

I know you're gonna say that there are other circumstances there, that he has to rely on his QB and he hasn't had a good QB/OC in his time there? Well, Hawk knows that pain. He's on his third position in the NFL, and he's played through some nasty injuries already. He's had two LBs next to him have career years and a third LB who's never played the position look very solid; that's not a coincidence.

No, Hawk is not a superstar elite LB. But he's a pretty damn good one that does anything we ask him to, and there's a reason a great GM like TT signed him for $7 million/per.


And that was one mans opinion - - Corrick among others questioned his hips and change of direction. Judging by the numbers Hawk has put up, which scouts were right and which were wrong ? There are some great scouting reports on Ryan Leaf as well. They were wrong.

So far all of the positive comments posted about Hawk I noticed one thing. None of them speak about Hawk's on field performance, only that he is always on the field. That's setting the bar pretty damn low don't you think. "Hawk is always on the field giving 100%" Sorry but that's not enough to give a guy 35 million. Crosby is always on the field and giving 100%. Give me one thing he does well other than not being injured. Does he tackle well ? Is he great in coverage ? Is he a turnover machine ? Uncanny ability to get to the QB ?

-According to the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, there have been "whispers" amongst Packers ILB AJ Hawk's teammates about "how little his game has to offer."

-Winston Moss questioned his ability to make plays.

-The stat sheet doesn't lie
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duxrule


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDN40 wrote:
GoPackGo wrote:
SDN40 wrote:
GoPackGo wrote:
SDN40 wrote:
GoPackGo wrote:
He is prone to that, yep, but have any of you EVER seen Hawk take a play off? Maybe he misses tackles, isn't always sound in his fundamentals, but dude NEVER misses a beat or lacks trying. Palmy always mentions those guys that get every drip of talent out of their body. Hawk is one of those types IMO.


And those guys are a dime a dozen in the 7th round. They may even force a fumble or get a tackle for loss or maybe even a sack once in a while.
Hell I won't take a play off for half the price


Apparently they aren't, because we haven't found anyone better to replace him.


We haven't replaced Crosby yet either, but it doesn't make him suck any less.


He just started his awful streak this year. How many drafts has Hawk been through since he's been picked? 6 or 7? If he as average as the "dime a dozen" guys you mention, he would've been replaced already.


Well then lets let the stats do the talking. ESPN has career stats for sacks, forced fumbles, interceptions, etc. Take a look and see what you think. Get ready to see lots of zeros. Of course TT isnt going to look to get rid of a guy he just gave a contract to. Look how long it took for Bishop to get his chance instead of Barnett. You can bet your last dollar that as soon as its financially feasible, Hawk is gone.

No one makes less plays for more money on this team, and that includes Finley. Everyone wants to talk about living up to the money they make, Hawk is the biggest offender of that concept.


FALSE !! At least when he isn't making a sack, or whatever else people are judging him by, Hawk still is taking on blockers, making tackles, etc. Finley....when he isn't catching passes or dropping them, isn't taking on tacklers at all.

Perception is everything, isn't it? Zach Thomas played 12 years, was 7 time Pro-Bowler and 5 times All Pro. He ended with 20.5 sacks and 17 picks. Hawk is at 6 years, with 11 sacks and 8 picks.......
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PackFan4Life


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duxrule wrote:
SDN40 wrote:
GoPackGo wrote:
SDN40 wrote:
GoPackGo wrote:
SDN40 wrote:
GoPackGo wrote:
He is prone to that, yep, but have any of you EVER seen Hawk take a play off? Maybe he misses tackles, isn't always sound in his fundamentals, but dude NEVER misses a beat or lacks trying. Palmy always mentions those guys that get every drip of talent out of their body. Hawk is one of those types IMO.


And those guys are a dime a dozen in the 7th round. They may even force a fumble or get a tackle for loss or maybe even a sack once in a while.
Hell I won't take a play off for half the price


Apparently they aren't, because we haven't found anyone better to replace him.


We haven't replaced Crosby yet either, but it doesn't make him suck any less.


He just started his awful streak this year. How many drafts has Hawk been through since he's been picked? 6 or 7? If he as average as the "dime a dozen" guys you mention, he would've been replaced already.


Well then lets let the stats do the talking. ESPN has career stats for sacks, forced fumbles, interceptions, etc. Take a look and see what you think. Get ready to see lots of zeros. Of course TT isnt going to look to get rid of a guy he just gave a contract to. Look how long it took for Bishop to get his chance instead of Barnett. You can bet your last dollar that as soon as its financially feasible, Hawk is gone.

No one makes less plays for more money on this team, and that includes Finley. Everyone wants to talk about living up to the money they make, Hawk is the biggest offender of that concept.


FALSE !! At least when he isn't making a sack, or whatever else people are judging him by, Hawk still is taking on blockers, making tackles, etc. Finley....when he isn't catching passes or dropping them, isn't taking on tacklers at all.

Perception is everything, isn't it? Zach Thomas played 12 years, was 7 time Pro-Bowler and 5 times All Pro. He ended with 20.5 sacks and 17 picks. Hawk is at 6 years, with 11 sacks and 8 picks.......


Very good illustration in those stats of who does and does not really understand what is going on beyond the ball on the football field.
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TheGreatZepp


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People who just can't move past the ESPN stat sheet.

So Patrick Willis, everyone agree he's as good as anyone to set the mark for 3-4 ILB play right?

Willis' season to date: 0.5 SACKS, 2 FF, 1 INT.... you can get all of this for just $7.5 million a year.

Want to talk about someone offering nothing statistically this year...
B.J. Raji 21 tackles, 0 SACKS, 0 FF, 0 INT, 0 TFL

No splash plays, I can find someone to put up those numbers in the seventh round... Thompson would be stupid to spend money resigning him when you can get a late round pick to do the same think for less...unless you want to admit that players have impacts outside of sacks and interceptions...
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palmy50


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get the no splash plays thing. But production matters also. Hawk has led this team in tackles or been runner up more than his share while in Green Bay.

Still say if Hawk would get up and beat his chest every now and again many would view him in a different light. Damn shame that's what it takes for some though.
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Pugger


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawk also appears to be someone his teammates value and respect. He again was voted by his teammates to be one of the post season defensive captains this year. Evidently he is a leader in the locker room and that has value too.
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incognito_man


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looked more like a #10 overall pick this week.

Still disappointed.
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Dunderhead


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just can not understand any hate of AJ Hawk... None at all. His position is never gonna be a splash play position. Just not going to happen. This year he's been great. Yeah, I said it, great - just like 2010 maybe better.

This is a league of Money Ball. It has a hard cap, and every game production is what drives good teams, not some of these guys that hardly play 10 games. Hawk plays all the time and that's a premium you pay for - it is equal to splash plays.

The money Hawk is payed is right where Chad Greenway gets paid. He's probably the guy that Hawk best resembles as a player, and Hawk has put in more time than he has. Greenway got Franchised a few years back by the Vikes. Wanna blame someone for how much you pay a guy like Hawk? Blame the Vikings, they set the price!

Football, as a whole (cap, production, injuries...) isn't a vacuum science. You have hits and misses. I'll agree that Hawk plays to his salary and he doesn't give more than his salary. That's not a bad thing, it's normal. Most teams don't have the best QB making half price. Most teams don't have OLBers making 1/4 what they should for what they've produced. This is why I think GB fans act like spoiled babies cause the production overall for this team for what is paid out is ridiculous. This team, for production should cost 500 million, not the 200 we pay.

And as far as Winston Moss' quote, so what? Its an old tactic. Ron Wolf said the same thing about LeRoy Butler. Leadership calls out players to try and get more out of them... And since Moss did that we've gotten more outta Hawk, he's lost weight, gained speed, and seems stronger.
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svp


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Hawk was signing his current contract some other team(s) phoned in interest. That happened for sure. I don't know if it made a bump in his money.
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IrishGreen


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

most people don't have a negative perception. your average joe think he's one of our best defensive players.


he is what he is. solid. i don't think anyone hates him.
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Dubyajay


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunderhead wrote:
Just can not understand any hate of AJ Hawk... None at all. His position is never gonna be a splash play position. Just not going to happen. This year he's been great. Yeah, I said it, great - just like 2010 maybe better.

This is a league of Money Ball. It has a hard cap, and every game production is what drives good teams, not some of these guys that hardly play 10 games. Hawk plays all the time and that's a premium you pay for - it is equal to splash plays.

The money Hawk is payed is right where Chad Greenway gets paid. He's probably the guy that Hawk best resembles as a player, and Hawk has put in more time than he has. Greenway got Franchised a few years back by the Vikes. Wanna blame someone for how much you pay a guy like Hawk? Blame the Vikings, they set the price!

Football, as a whole (cap, production, injuries...) isn't a vacuum science. You have hits and misses. I'll agree that Hawk plays to his salary and he doesn't give more than his salary. That's not a bad thing, it's normal. Most teams don't have the best QB making half price. Most teams don't have OLBers making 1/4 what they should for what they've produced. This is why I think GB fans act like spoiled babies cause the production overall for this team for what is paid out is ridiculous. This team, for production should cost 500 million, not the 200 we pay.

And as far as Winston Moss' quote, so what? Its an old tactic. Ron Wolf said the same thing about LeRoy Butler. Leadership calls out players to try and get more out of them... And since Moss did that we've gotten more outta Hawk, he's lost weight, gained speed, and seems stronger.


Just to clarify that point as well. The team asked him to add weight (mass- think Mac) so that he could better take on blockers. Only when we saw that it affected him negatively did he drop the weight.
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spilltray


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IrishGreen wrote:
most people don't have a negative perception. your average joe think he's one of our best defensive players.


he is what he is. solid. i don't think anyone hates him.


Then you must talk to different Packers fans than I do. Pretty much every MJS/GBPG article that talks about possible cap space that could be freed up talks about cutting Hawk. Every time anyone flashes at ILB the solution is to let them have Hawk's spot. That's quieted down a bit this year but you still see it from time to time. For my money he's the best ILB the Packers have on the roster by a good margin, healthy or otherwise and if I was looking to replace a LB, Bishop would come before Hawk, but most see it the other way around.

I've said this before but I'd be willing to wager good money that the front office and coaching staff feels exponentially better about Hawk's contract and the value he brings to the team than the general fan or the media. Thankfully most of us here realize what that is.
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blueswedeshoes


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spilltray wrote:
IrishGreen wrote:
most people don't have a negative perception. your average joe think he's one of our best defensive players.


he is what he is. solid. i don't think anyone hates him.


Then you must talk to different Packers fans than I do. Pretty much every MJS/GBPG article that talks about possible cap space that could be freed up talks about cutting Hawk. Every time anyone flashes at ILB the solution is to let them have Hawk's spot. That's quieted down a bit this year but you still see it from time to time. For my money he's the best ILB the Packers have on the roster by a good margin, healthy or otherwise and if I was looking to replace a LB, Bishop would come before Hawk, but most see it the other way around.

I've said this before but I'd be willing to wager good money that the front office and coaching staff feels exponentially better about Hawk's contract and the value he brings to the team than the general fan or the media. Thankfully most of us here realize what that is.


I agree with your points. I have a suspicion that AJ Hawk has played through some injuries that slowed him down considerably during those times when he has seemed to disappear. But that is kind of the point with AJ. If I am right about the injuries, he has toughed it out and stayed on the field earning most of his pay.

A discussion about AJ's $ worth is appropriate. I am sure that the Packers' front office has had that discussion many times.

But I don't think he is going to be as easy to replace as others think.
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