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Why do many fans have a negative perception of A.J Hawk?
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HyponGrey


Joined: 23 Jun 2012
Posts: 3548
Location: SNJ
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because he's a sure-tackling run-stopper, who plays cut off and wraps up then takes down, which can give the RB and extra couple of yards. He was a bit slow, which his weight loss has helped with. He also gets a bit hesitant, which makes him look lazy, though sometimes that's him playing contain. He can be a liability in coverage for reasons listed above. He had a few bad years and a few quiet years, which made him seem inconsistent. The move to the 3-4 really hurt him. The guy next to him makes the splash plays plays. His draft position and contract don't help him, you don't spend a pick that high or that much money on a quiet role player. Those were the points I knocked him for. He has been aggressive this year, and has performed incredibly well despite having to play out of position to accommodate Smith and Jones. I can't say squat about the guy. Some people stopped watching him and just started blaming him.
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mccammon07 wrote:
We should give Nick Perry a shot at ILB this year


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MrBobGray


Joined: 08 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
Seems like the switch to the 34 helped our ILBs out more so than Hawk. He's an average thumper based on his play. That's always been the problem with Hawk is that he's just average.


You're missing the point here: who do you think leads the way so those ILB can put up great numbers? Who's the first guy through on the ILB cross blitz? You don't think it's a bit strange that everybody we put in at WILB suddenly has a career year? The only constant next to them is Hawk.

Now yes, Capers is very good at using his tools to the best of their ability, unlike Sanders, our previous DC. Certainly a good deal of the praise goes his way. But Hawk is a guy who has proven to be a great asset as the thumper ILB, and it's not a coincidence that we can plug and play guys in next to him and still get decent production.

Is Hawk elite? No, but he's smart, assignment sure, and selfless. He sets up other players to make plays, and given what the Packers ask him to do, that's important. This is especially true given how much nickle we run even on potential running downs: there's not usually anyone in front of him. If Hawk wasn't good at his job, we certainly couldn't run a 2-4-5 nickle as much as we do.

I can say this: every time I've gone back and watched Hawk specifically (using the TV feed, I have no access to any actual film), I've come away impressed. He never stands out when I'm watching the game live, but when you know to look for him, he plays much better than his reputation. He's just not a flashy guy on the field, and that hurts the perception of him.
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TheGreatZepp


Joined: 27 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
xDD80x wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
1. Was picked 5th and has been a huge dissapointment for that spot.


False. Top 10 picks that year:
Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, Vince Young, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, AJ Hawk, Vernon Davis, Michael Huff, Donte Whinter, Ernie Sims, Matt Leinart

There are huge disappointments on this list, Hawk is not one of them. But yeah if Hawk was a 7th rounder he'd be loved.



Look at the first round, who would you rather have had in the first round in that draft:

Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Vernon Davis, Jay Cutler, Haloti Ngata, Kamerion Wimbley, Brodrick Bunkley, Chad Greenway, Antonio Cromartie, Tamba Hali, Davon Joseph, Johnathon Joseph, Santonio Holmes, DeAngelo Williams, Nick Mangold, Mathias Kiwanuka all make that list for me.

That's 17 guys all in the first round alone. That draft wasn't devoid of talent. Hawk was without question a bust for where he was drafted. He's a huge dissapointment.
Really? I wouldn't take half of those.
Honestly Cutler? $48 million dollar backup... would be third stringer at that time even. And oh yea, Favre really needed another ally on the team to teach to be just like him.

You really hate Hawk

#5 pick on a really good but not great guard?
Cromartie and Holmes? Oh please no. Did you forget how both of their original teams couldn't seem to get rid of them fast enough after they drew a line in the sand?
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rbens06


Joined: 07 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
xDD80x wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
1. Was picked 5th and has been a huge dissapointment for that spot.


False. Top 10 picks that year:
Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, Vince Young, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, AJ Hawk, Vernon Davis, Michael Huff, Donte Whinter, Ernie Sims, Matt Leinart

There are huge disappointments on this list, Hawk is not one of them. But yeah if Hawk was a 7th rounder he'd be loved.



Look at the first round, who would you rather have had in the first round in that draft:

Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Vernon Davis, Jay Cutler, Haloti Ngata, Kamerion Wimbley, Brodrick Bunkley, Chad Greenway, Antonio Cromartie, Tamba Hali, Davon Joseph, Johnathon Joseph, Santonio Holmes, DeAngelo Williams, Nick Mangold, Mathias Kiwanuka all make that list for me.

That's 17 guys all in the first round alone. That draft wasn't devoid of talent. Hawk was without question a bust for where he was drafted. He's a huge dissapointment.


I do not think you can call a guy that has started every season since his rookie year, on some good teams, a bust. Has he lived up to the hype of a top 5 pick, maybe not. He has not been a dominant, take over the game defender, no, but has he been a reliable starter, yes. I have never been a fan of cutting or trading Hawk. Someone that goes about his business and does his job day in and day out (no matter what the situation or media says) is valuable to the team, especially since his play is not terrible. As mentioned by others I think his knock comes from the fact that he was the 5th overall pick. I do not think many people would complain about him if he was drafted later in the first.

Looking at the list of players you gave there are some talented players, but you have to look at the roster we had at the time and the value of the player. Plus I would say that at least 3-4 players on that list have had worse careers than Hawk.
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HyponGrey


Joined: 23 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGreatZepp wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
xDD80x wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
1. Was picked 5th and has been a huge dissapointment for that spot.


False. Top 10 picks that year:
Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, Vince Young, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, AJ Hawk, Vernon Davis, Michael Huff, Donte Whinter, Ernie Sims, Matt Leinart

There are huge disappointments on this list, Hawk is not one of them. But yeah if Hawk was a 7th rounder he'd be loved.



Look at the first round, who would you rather have had in the first round in that draft:

Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Vernon Davis, Jay Cutler, Haloti Ngata, Kamerion Wimbley, Brodrick Bunkley, Chad Greenway, Antonio Cromartie, Tamba Hali, Davon Joseph, Johnathon Joseph, Santonio Holmes, DeAngelo Williams, Nick Mangold, Mathias Kiwanuka all make that list for me.

That's 17 guys all in the first round alone. That draft wasn't devoid of talent. Hawk was without question a bust for where he was drafted. He's a huge dissapointment.
Really? I wouldn't take half of those.
Honestly Cutler? $48 million dollar backup... would be third stringer at that time even. And oh yea, Favre really needed another ally on the team to teach to be just like him.

You really hate Hawk

#5 pick on a really good but not great guard?
Cromartie and Holmes? Oh please no. Did you forget how both of their original teams couldn't seem to get rid of them fast enough after they drew a line in the sand?
Yeah, add VD to that list, If it wasn't for Singletary he would be like Finley last year.
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We should give Nick Perry a shot at ILB this year
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PossibleCabbage


Joined: 25 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the "top 5 pick" expectations. If Hawk were taken at like #18 or something, nobody would have a problem with it.

But if your team has a pick in the top 5 and you're paying a guy like a top 5 pick, fans expect for this guy to become an instant impact, perennial pro bowler, potential hall of famer type guy.

If you actually pay attention to the draft, there's not a lot of track record for guys picked 5th to go on to be great (Sanchez, Glenn Dorsey, Levi Brown, Carnell Williams, etc.) so a lot of people had and still have unfair expectations for Hawk.

I wish he was better, but there's no a player on this team that I don't wish were better.
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TheGreatZepp


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PossibleCabbage wrote:
It's the "top 5 pick" expectations. If Hawk were taken at like #18 or something, nobody would have a problem with it.

But if your team has a pick in the top 5 and you're paying a guy like a top 5 pick, fans expect for this guy to become an instant impact, perennial pro bowler, potential hall of famer type guy.

If you actually pay attention to the draft, there's not a lot of track record for guys picked 5th to go on to be great (Sanchez, Glenn Dorsey, Levi Brown, Carnell Williams, etc.) so a lot of people had and still have unfair expectations for Hawk.

I wish he was better, but there's no a player on this team that I don't wish were better.
You can go 1990 through 2010 draft. 10 #1 picks have made a Pro Bowl while, 11 #1 picks haven't made a Pro Bowl. That is just the Pro Bowl even with the popular fan vote, #1 picks always have a leg up with their publicity and perception of being a #1 pick.
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Willink


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawk has actually been pretty damn good this season


I'd expect this type of thread a few years ago, but not now.
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Hurricane_Seasn


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldnt go so far as to call him a run stopper. He'll make a play or two a game around the line of scrimmage, but so does just about every ILB in the game. Far to many times i key in on him hes getting totally driven back by the line or the fb. He cant get off any blocks. He seems to be in or around a lot of plays, he just doesnt seem to be the one making them. I feel like he also lacks lateral speed. Its evident for me when hes pursuing an outside run or when hes in coverage.
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Ketchup


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willink wrote:
Hawk has actually been pretty damn good this season


I'd expect this type of thread a few years ago, but not now.
He's had a solid season. That's the problem. For where he was drafted and for what he's being paid, fans expect more. I like Hawk and love how consistent he is. Our ILBing corp would have fallen apart without Hawk this year. He's one of those guys that are always going to find a spot on someones team because they are so darn consistent. The thing with him though and why he gets a bad rep is because his high profile coming out was of a splash play type and it just never translated.
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGreatZepp wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
xDD80x wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
1. Was picked 5th and has been a huge dissapointment for that spot.


False. Top 10 picks that year:
Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, Vince Young, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, AJ Hawk, Vernon Davis, Michael Huff, Donte Whinter, Ernie Sims, Matt Leinart

There are huge disappointments on this list, Hawk is not one of them. But yeah if Hawk was a 7th rounder he'd be loved.



Look at the first round, who would you rather have had in the first round in that draft:

Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Vernon Davis, Jay Cutler, Haloti Ngata, Kamerion Wimbley, Brodrick Bunkley, Chad Greenway, Antonio Cromartie, Tamba Hali, Davon Joseph, Johnathon Joseph, Santonio Holmes, DeAngelo Williams, Nick Mangold, Mathias Kiwanuka all make that list for me.

That's 17 guys all in the first round alone. That draft wasn't devoid of talent. Hawk was without question a bust for where he was drafted. He's a huge dissapointment.
Really? I wouldn't take half of those.
Honestly Cutler? $48 million dollar backup... would be third stringer at that time even. And oh yea, Favre really needed another ally on the team to teach to be just like him.

You really hate Hawk

#5 pick on a really good but not great guard?
Cromartie and Holmes? Oh please no. Did you forget how both of their original teams couldn't seem to get rid of them fast enough after they drew a line in the sand?


The question isn't who you would take at the time. It's in hindsight who you would want. I think every single man on that list brings more to a team than Hawk does. People see those guys performing weekly and it causes resentment.

Cromartie is a shut down CB.
Holmes is a Super Bowl MVP
Joseph IS a great Guard.
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GoPackGo


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's not elite, no, but I'd take 53 players on my squad just like him with his work ethic and commitment to the team game. Love the guy honestly.
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TheGreatZepp


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polaris wrote:
I cannot speak for anybody else.

I coached football for a long time and I can tell you, just having a guy that you can count on to suit up is a big deal. It's a frustrating part of the job that week in and week out you've got guys that you'd like to have on the field but don't.

And that's why I like Hawk. He suits up. He knows his assignment. He keeps his nose clean off the field and doesn't do and say things that embarass the franchise.

People talk about Bishop, and DJ Smith, as being better than Hawk. Maybe, but not this year they aren't. I'd lots rather have Hawk in the lineup this Sunday than an injured Bishop or Smith.

If we ever have two ILBs who are better than Hawk and healthy enough to play, that'll be a good thing. But that hasn't been the case since before we drafted him, it isn't the case now, and I suspect it won't be the case next year.

Bishop is closing on 30 and just missed an entire season with significant leg problems. Smith hasn't shown he can start and finish a season. Hawk has, and that's why I expect the depth chart at the beginning of training camp to have Hawk as a starter. If he gets beat out, fine. But I wouldn't bet on it.
People DO definitely say that the others are better then Hawk, but why is that? Bishop did get a little more physical last year but up until maybe the last quarter of the season he was my biggest infuriator on short yardage plays. It would be second and goal at the one... Hawk would just crash into the line anywhere he though a hole might open up, when the ball is snapped he just goes, he understands that tackling them after three yards will still be a touchdown. Bishop on the other hand would hesitate for a half second by which time the result of the play was almost always already decided. He may end up getting in on the tackle but the outcome was already determined.
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TheGreatZepp


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
The question isn't who you would take at the time. It's in hindsight who you would want. I think every single man on that list brings more to a team than Hawk does. People see those guys performing weekly and it causes resentment.

Cromartie is a shut down CB.
Holmes is a Super Bowl MVP
Joseph IS a great Guard.

HA!
Cromartie, IS the worst run defending starting corner in the league.
Holmes is a Super Bowl MVP because he had a spectacular catch during one drive of relevancy in a game he where he was mostly non-existent. The defense was the real MVP of that game. Holmes is a head case that has been constantly implied to be a headache for his coaches.
Joseph is not even the best guard on his team. But sure he's great if there's 30 great guards in the league.

Let's just compare for example the careers of James Jones and Santonio Holmes for the familarity reference.

Holmes/Jones
92/88 Games Played
358/238 Catches
54.2/60.1 Catch Percentage
5,507/3,326 Receiving Yards
15.4/14.0 Average Per Reception
35/32 Touchdowns
6/7 Fumbles

Holmes/Bowe
92/88 Games Played
358/415 Catches
54.2/55.4 Catch Percentage
5,507/5,728 Yards
15.4/13.8 Average Per Reception
35/39 Touchdowns
6/4 Fumbles

Homes/Receiver drafted 27 picks AFTER Holmes
92/94 Games Played
358/410 Receptions
54.2/57.5 Catch Percentage
5,507/6,372 Yards
15.4/15.5 Average Per Reception
35/50 Touchdowns
6/5 Fumbles
Highlight For Name-->>Greg Jennings<--

Holmes is somewhere relatively close to Bowe but Bowe isn't that high himself; Holmes is no where near one of the best in the league.
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SDN40


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember Robert Francois posting more game changing positive plays in 6 games than Hawk has in 6 years. For years everyone defended Hawk by saying he wasn't asked to make plays. As hilarious as that was to hear it wasn't until an article surfaced where Winston Moss criticized Hawk for ..... wait for it ........ not making plays, that those silly words stopped showing up here.

Its no secret that I am not a Hawk fan. I was in the Vernon Davis camp. Hawk's ceiling had already been reached and scouts mentioned while his 40 time was fine, he was stiff as a board. He's been a 2x4 ever since. He has mastered making those tackles 7 yards down field though.
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