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Why do many fans have a negative perception of A.J Hawk?
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TheGreatZepp


Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Posts: 2844
Location: Brookfield, WI
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:23 am    Post subject: Why do many fans have a negative perception of A.J Hawk? Reply with quote

I've seen it posted and mentioned again and again, cut Hawk, draft an inside linebacker to replace Hawk, start Manning. Pretty much every option possible I've seen used as to ration out releasing Hawk. I entirely miss why Hawk should be replaced. He's damn good at what his position requires when he isn't getting asked to do too much. Knock him for his play last year but I should hope any poster who ever played on defense even if it was just pop warner should know what happens when the defensive line is getting dominated at the line of scrimmage. Hawk is a banger, he fills holes and fights through the garbage better then any other ILB on the roster active or IR. That is even when Hawk is nearly almost always the one who gets a lineman on him. He's to the linebackers what Ryan Pickett has been the last couple of years to the line. Not the big splash play guy, the fundamentally sound just good football player that sets up the defense for others. He's the type of guy a team like the Eagles are missing.

I like Hawk, he's a smart football player that sees the big picture. He does what he should to net the best result for the defense often at his statistical expense. His salary is high for what is really a two-down linebacker but in no way do I consider it unreasonable. I'd replace Bishop if forced a choice, just as much a liability as a splash player on the field. Yet Bishop seems to get only love by the majority of fans. It's Hawk that's out there not Bishop with the defense playing possibly the best short yardage defense(especially up the middle) it has since the switch to 3-4. Now that has as much to do with the defensive line as anyone but Hawk is arguably the key part of that run defense behind that line along with Matthews.

So I ask of the wise FF posters, why are there so many mixed views on A.J. Hawk. What did he do last year that was worse then then the other defenders out there on the field last year that are spared the dislike this year?
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chillparsi1


Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 5714
Location: USC
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not on either side of the Hawk debate. But honestly I believe it's because he was picked #5.
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vang_evo9


Joined: 13 Aug 2011
Posts: 1097
Location: Fresno, CA
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea for me its because of #5 and IMO his salary is a bit high. I'd definitely not replace Bishop in place of him tho!
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 6497
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Was picked 5th and has been a huge dissapointment for that spot.

2. Lack of splash plays while other ILBs are playmakers

3. Lack of physicality and getting dragged five yards/getting knocked around by FBs.

4. Really slow reaction time means he's only adequete in coverage.

5. Got paid, and many feel that he's overpaid a fair bit.
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Kenrik


Joined: 15 Dec 2011
Posts: 308
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He cut his hair

Hes not Te'o

His brother in law is Brady

Huge expectations being drafted at #5. Even though most top players drafted that year busted and/or are under performing.
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gizmo2012


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 2806
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People are complaining about AJ Hawk this year? I haven't seen it so am I missing something. Now I understand AJ has been a target in the past but I think most fans are extremely happy we at least have AJ Hawk on the field this year. He has been the most consistent LB on the team and I think most fans really appreciate it. I know I do.
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Lambeauleaper61


Joined: 30 Nov 2012
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is over-paid IMO

He has always seemed to be afew steps late and then piles on

He has seemed to look stiff in the past,but lost weight and has played faster this year.

We could have had Patrick Willis in that draft down afew picks later and thats where Hawk doesn't measure up!
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xDD80x


Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 942
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
1. Was picked 5th and has been a huge dissapointment for that spot.


False. Top 10 picks that year:
Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, Vince Young, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, AJ Hawk, Vernon Davis, Michael Huff, Donte Whinter, Ernie Sims, Matt Leinart

There are huge disappointments on this list, Hawk is not one of them. But yeah if Hawk was a 7th rounder he'd be loved.

Lambeauleaper61 wrote:
We could have had Patrick Willis in that draft down afew picks later and thats where Hawk doesn't measure up!

Except NO ONE would have made that pick. On internet forums the debate was Hawk versus a few contrarians talking about Vernon Davis with Michael Huff a little bit in the conversation.

Actually, Patrick Willis wasn't even in that draft:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NFL_Draft

We don't win it all in 2010 without Hawk.
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Pugger


Joined: 01 May 2010
Posts: 8640
Location: N. Fort Myers, FL
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chillparsi1 wrote:
I'm not on either side of the Hawk debate. But honestly I believe it's because he was picked #5.


Yes, had he been picked later in that draft nobody would be grousing about him.
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 6497
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xDD80x wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
1. Was picked 5th and has been a huge dissapointment for that spot.


False. Top 10 picks that year:
Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, Vince Young, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, AJ Hawk, Vernon Davis, Michael Huff, Donte Whinter, Ernie Sims, Matt Leinart

There are huge disappointments on this list, Hawk is not one of them. But yeah if Hawk was a 7th rounder he'd be loved.



Look at the first round, who would you rather have had in the first round in that draft:

Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Vernon Davis, Jay Cutler, Haloti Ngata, Kamerion Wimbley, Brodrick Bunkley, Chad Greenway, Antonio Cromartie, Tamba Hali, Davon Joseph, Johnathon Joseph, Santonio Holmes, DeAngelo Williams, Nick Mangold, Mathias Kiwanuka all make that list for me.

That's 17 guys all in the first round alone. That draft wasn't devoid of talent. Hawk was without question a bust for where he was drafted. He's a huge dissapointment.
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{Family Ghost}


Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 1369
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's mainly because of where he was picked and the money. Hawk is a solid player .. pretty much always has been that as a pro, but they pay him like he's an elite player at his position for some reason. That deal that they signed him to a few years ago was ridiculous baded on his lack of big time production. You want your players to play up to the level of their contracts. In this case we have to look past the contract and just be happy that we have a player who you can almost always count on to show up and turn in a decent performance.
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MrBobGray


Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 1620
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People are disappointed in Hawk because they still think of football as Madden, even when they're trying not too.

In his seven seasons in GB, Hawk has missed 2 games. His first 5 years he didn't miss a game, despite a badly torn groin in 2008 that greatly limited his ability to play.

In his seven seasons in GB, Hawk has played WLB, MLB, and ILB for Green Bay, as well as time in the nickle. I'm not sure if he's ever been the LB in dime. He has rarely been given the chance to pick a spot and stay in it. Additionally, in his two first seasons when he lined up at WLB (ie, the position he was drafted to play for GB) he had the following statlines:

2006: 119 tackles, 82 solo; 3.5 sacks, 6 PD, 2 INTs, 1 FF
2007: 105 tackles, 78 solo; 1 sack, 4 PD, 1 INT, 1 FF

in comparison, Chad Greenway for the Vikings had:

2006: DNP
2007: 105 tackles, 78 solo; 0 sacks, 4 PD, 2 INTs, 1 TD, 2 FF
2008: 115 tackles, 86 solo, 5.5 sacks, 5 PD, 0 INTs, 3 FF

and Lance Briggs, in his two best seasons statistically:

2006: 130 tackles, 109 solo; 1 sack, 8 PD, 2 INTs, 4 FF
2008: 110 tackles, 90 solo; 0.5 sacks, 10 PDs, 3 INTs, 1 FF

The point being here is that people give Hawk a lot of crap for not making splash plays, but when he was given the opportunity early on, he made a fair amount of them. He was third in voting for DROY that year, and honestly his statline is almost identical to the winner (DeMeco Ryans).

Since then, Hawk has been bounced around and expected to fill a multitude of different roles, and he's done it every year without missing a bit.

In 2008 he took over at MLB when Barnett went down with an injury despite having an injured groin. This was after we attempted to let Bishop play the position at MIN and he blew the game in coverage against C. Taylor.

In 2009 he bulked up to play the SILB in the 3-4, and coincidentally Nick Barnett coming back from surgery had one of his best years ever. What a coincidence.

In 2010 Desmond Bishop took over for an injured Nick Barnett, and had a monster year. Two years previous he had been terrible in the 4-3 at MLB, but suddenly following Hawk he had a Pro-Bowl year. Just like Barnett had had the year before.

In 2012, both Bishop and his back-up Smith go down. Brad Jones plays ILB for the first time at any level. The run defense is shockingly not horrible.

The point of all this being, it doesn't seem to matter who we put next to Hawk, they look good. When we put him in position to be the playmaker, instead of the guy who leads the way, he puts up stats comparable with the better players in the league. He's missed 2 games out of a possible 110, and played anywhere and everywhere we asked him. He played ST as recently as 2009, despite also being a starter, because we needed him too.

Hawk has not been a superstar, but there's a reason they signed him to that massive contract. He's the linebacker this team needs right now, but apparently not the one it deserves.
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PackFan4Life


Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 4119
Location: De Pere, WI
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawk is earning every bit of that salary. Good contract there that is fair market value. The only thing Hawk has not lived up to is the fans perception of what a #5 overall draft pick could be. I smirk a little bit when I read those arguments, because he could have a #5 overall bust as well. I will take Hawk and appreciate the fact he is core member of this defense that is making what he is worth on the team and was not a bust.

Everyone wants to hit a home run with every draft pick, especially that high. The trick is learning to appreciate a double because it is much better than a strike out.
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 6497
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrBobGray wrote:
People are disappointed in Hawk because they still think of football as Madden, even when they're trying not too.

In his seven seasons in GB, Hawk has missed 2 games. His first 5 years he didn't miss a game, despite a badly torn groin in 2008 that greatly limited his ability to play.

In his seven seasons in GB, Hawk has played WLB, MLB, and ILB for Green Bay, as well as time in the nickle. I'm not sure if he's ever been the LB in dime. He has rarely been given the chance to pick a spot and stay in it. Additionally, in his two first seasons when he lined up at WLB (ie, the position he was drafted to play for GB) he had the following statlines:

2006: 119 tackles, 82 solo; 3.5 sacks, 6 PD, 2 INTs, 1 FF
2007: 105 tackles, 78 solo; 1 sack, 4 PD, 1 INT, 1 FF

in comparison, Chad Greenway for the Vikings had:

2006: DNP
2007: 105 tackles, 78 solo; 0 sacks, 4 PD, 2 INTs, 1 TD, 2 FF
2008: 115 tackles, 86 solo, 5.5 sacks, 5 PD, 0 INTs, 3 FF

and Lance Briggs, in his two best seasons statistically:

2006: 130 tackles, 109 solo; 1 sack, 8 PD, 2 INTs, 4 FF
2008: 110 tackles, 90 solo; 0.5 sacks, 10 PDs, 3 INTs, 1 FF

The point being here is that people give Hawk a lot of crap for not making splash plays, but when he was given the opportunity early on, he made a fair amount of them. He was third in voting for DROY that year, and honestly his statline is almost identical to the winner (DeMeco Ryans).

Since then, Hawk has been bounced around and expected to fill a multitude of different roles, and he's done it every year without missing a bit.

In 2008 he took over at MLB when Barnett went down with an injury despite having an injured groin. This was after we attempted to let Bishop play the position at MIN and he blew the game in coverage against C. Taylor.

In 2009 he bulked up to play the SILB in the 3-4, and coincidentally Nick Barnett coming back from surgery had one of his best years ever. What a coincidence.

In 2010 Desmond Bishop took over for an injured Nick Barnett, and had a monster year. Two years previous he had been terrible in the 4-3 at MLB, but suddenly following Hawk he had a Pro-Bowl year. Just like Barnett had had the year before.

In 2012, both Bishop and his back-up Smith go down. Brad Jones plays ILB for the first time at any level. The run defense is shockingly not horrible.

The point of all this being, it doesn't seem to matter who we put next to Hawk, they look good. When we put him in position to be the playmaker, instead of the guy who leads the way, he puts up stats comparable with the better players in the league. He's missed 2 games out of a possible 110, and played anywhere and everywhere we asked him. He played ST as recently as 2009, despite also being a starter, because we needed him too.

Hawk has not been a superstar, but there's a reason they signed him to that massive contract. He's the linebacker this team needs right now, but apparently not the one it deserves.


Seems like the switch to the 34 helped our ILBs out more so than Hawk. He's an average thumper based on his play. That's always been the problem with Hawk is that he's just average.
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Polaris


Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 3135
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cannot speak for anybody else.

I coached football for a long time and I can tell you, just having a guy that you can count on to suit up is a big deal. It's a frustrating part of the job that week in and week out you've got guys that you'd like to have on the field but don't.

And that's why I like Hawk. He suits up. He knows his assignment. He keeps his nose clean off the field and doesn't do and say things that embarass the franchise.

People talk about Bishop, and DJ Smith, as being better than Hawk. Maybe, but not this year they aren't. I'd lots rather have Hawk in the lineup this Sunday than an injured Bishop or Smith.

If we ever have two ILBs who are better than Hawk and healthy enough to play, that'll be a good thing. But that hasn't been the case since before we drafted him, it isn't the case now, and I suspect it won't be the case next year.

Bishop is closing on 30 and just missed an entire season with significant leg problems. Smith hasn't shown he can start and finish a season. Hawk has, and that's why I expect the depth chart at the beginning of training camp to have Hawk as a starter. If he gets beat out, fine. But I wouldn't bet on it.
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