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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Of those names, I would consider Cody and Oher failures for sure. Smith is well on his way, and who knows with Harewood.

Doss, Kruger, Reid and (maybeeeeee) Dickson all look to have actual value.


Oher is a highly polarizing player so I can see both sides of the argument there. I think he's better as a RT or maybe even as a G but I wouldn't call him a bust. Cody kind of falls into the same category but for what he was drafted to do - take up space - he does it pretty well. We all knew what kind of player he was going to be when they drafted him. Regardless of what happens with Harewood he was a 6th round pick. I guess no GM would be a good drafter if they were evaluated on the consistency of their late-round picks becoming productive NFL players.


If Oher stays at LT - Bust. If they move him back to RT or really anywhere else, there's hope.

Cody was drafted to take up space, but now all he does is, well, take up space that prevents our guys from making tackles as the other team's Center moves him 5 yards off the ball every snap.
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Mr. X


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before we get way too into a heated argument I posted for little reason other than to just be a [inappropriate/removed] in my return. As for those late round picks...that wasn't the point. I listed the first through 3rd rounders, those guys should be starters or very very key players. I still consider Kruger a bust just because the Ravens drafted 2 OLBs after they got him and that caused them to miss out on other players and he's not really all that good sorry. But I listed those late round guys because their are not too many diamond's in the rough he's getting anymore.

Instead of getting Adalius Thomas, Ed Hartwell, Jarret Johnson, Chester Taylor, or Tony Pashos in the late rounders we're getting Haruki Nakamura, Arthur Jones, and Pernell McPhee. Those guys are solid players but Nakamura was nothing more than a 4th safety and special teams guy for us and Jones and McPhee are rotational guys, nowhere near the caliber of the other guys. But take a look over the past four drafts, have not been very good depth wise.

We got Flacco, Rice, Webb and Torrey Smith, phenomenal, but Gooden, Zibby, Cousins, Oher, Kruger, Cody, Dickson, Jimmy Smith, and Jah Reid are all very, very replaceable. I'm not completely ignoring Sergio Kindle because that should not be held against anybody and I'm not grading this year's draft yet...hopefully though Upshaw and KO figure something out and Gradkowski can develop into a decent center. Christian Thompson, Asa Jackson, Tommy Streeter, I have little hope for.
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santiagomn8


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldnt call Smith, cody, oher, dickson, doss, r most of those players bust they need a little more time. we have a great team on both sides of the ball we are missing a pass rush and a true Lt and we will be set.
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Mancunian Raven


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. X wrote:
Before we get way too into a heated argument I posted for little reason other than to just be a [inappropriate/removed] in my return. As for those late round picks...that wasn't the point. I listed the first through 3rd rounders, those guys should be starters or very very key players. I still consider Kruger a bust just because the Ravens drafted 2 OLBs after they got him and that caused them to miss out on other players and he's not really all that good sorry. But I listed those late round guys because their are not too many diamond's in the rough he's getting anymore.

Instead of getting Adalius Thomas, Ed Hartwell, Jarret Johnson, Chester Taylor, or Tony Pashos in the late rounders we're getting Haruki Nakamura, Arthur Jones, and Pernell McPhee. Those guys are solid players but Nakamura was nothing more than a 4th safety and special teams guy for us and Jones and McPhee are rotational guys, nowhere near the caliber of the other guys. But take a look over the past four drafts, have not been very good depth wise.

We got Flacco, Rice, Webb and Torrey Smith, phenomenal, but Gooden, Zibby, Cousins, Oher, Kruger, Cody, Dickson, Jimmy Smith, and Jah Reid are all very, very replaceable. I'm not completely ignoring Sergio Kindle because that should not be held against anybody and I'm not grading this year's draft yet...hopefully though Upshaw and KO figure something out and Gradkowski can develop into a decent center. Christian Thompson, Asa Jackson, Tommy Streeter, I have little hope for.


Well, you don't actually want 53 guys who are irreplaceable. Because you can't pay them all, you can't play them all, and you will have to replace them at some point when another team offers them a better deal.

With depth guys like Zibby and Nakamura, I think the team knows that they're never going to be starters. They're not really picked to be starters, and if they exceed expectations, then great. If they don't, you can try to trade them a couple of years down the line, or let them walk and get someone else.

I think Art Jones and Pernell McPhee are decent late round picks, in that they're not likely to become dominant players, but they're more than capable of coming in and playing significant roles, as they've started to show lately.

It's too early to tell with Thompson, Jackson and Streeter, because we've never really seen them on the field.
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STrid


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to chip in a bit, like I do from time to time Smile.

I think a lot of you guys are living in the illusion that it's still 2010 or so, back when we had a lot of really talented players in key positions. Do we still have some talented guys on the roster? Sure, but not nearly as many as we have had in years past.
This is most obvious on the defensive side of the ball. Lets chalk up the stars we have there: Ngata, Suggs, Webb, Reed and Lewis.

- Reed and Lewis are both arguably in the twilight of their respective careers and they do not play at a very high level anymore. Lewis has been hurt this season, but even so his level of play has taken quite a step down compared to previous years, which is of course to be expected at 37. That leaves Ray as a slightly above average ILB primarily because of the way he inspires on the field. Reed too has been on the decline for a few years now. While his coverage is still pretty good, his run support has been horrible for quite a while now which is not good for a team that has a tendency to give up a lot of rushing yards. Reed is not what he once was, and just like Lewis, can only be called above average because of his experience and leadership.

- Webb is out with an injury, but is a stud otherwise.

- Likewise Suggs has been hurt all year, but even coming off his DPOY season you could not argue that he was a premier pass rusher in this league. To prove that point Suggs was ranked as the 28th best pass rusher among DEs and OLBs by ProFootballFocus last year, even though he won the DPOY. Not to take anything away from Suggs' season, as he was by some margin the best run stopper in the same category, but in a league so dominated by passing that is hardly as impressive as it once was. The fact of the matter is that even though Suggs is really good his skillset does not match todays league nearly as well as we would probably like. I would probably rate Suggs as a top 6-7 DE/OLB in this league. When you factor in that Suggs is 30 by now you also realize that he's not going to get healthier as time goes on.

- Ngata had arguably his best year in 2010 with his 7 sacks and 48 tackles (Post season included), but since then his form has gone downwards. While he can still be a really dominant player at times he's not in that category of elite ENDs/DTs as he was a few years back. Accoring to PFF he is ranked 24th among all DTs/ENDs, who have played more than 50% of the defensive snaps, which is hardly impressive. Some of that you can possibly chalk down to the defense being quite poor, but it also tells a story about a guy who's maybe not as good as advertised.

The point I'm trying to make is that the players on this team mostly have a reputation of being good because of what they have done in the past and not what they do now. Of our five biggest stars on defense only two of them are below 30, and only two of them have actually played somewhat well this season (And that is counting in Webb). Do we have some guys on defense who could be good? Yes, absolutely, but right now those guys are not where we need them to be and the established stars are not pulling the weight of the players around them. Furthermore our strengths on defense are not in line with the needs of a modern football team. As mentioned above both Suggs and Ngata are primarily run stoppers and to a lesser degree pass rusher. We don't really have those studs that can get after the QB like a team needs these days.

The perception about the offense is the same. We like to think that we have a really talented team, and to some extend we do, but most of that talents is in the wrong places. You have Rice and Leach, arguably the best FB-RB duo, but then you have an OL who can't really runblock all that well. Likewise they have some weapons on offence, but the line can't passblock well enough to utilize Cam's moronic system. You've got a pretty good TE, but he's not really in the top 10, just like you've got a pretty good WR in Smith, but he's not really in the top 10 either.

To me the problems starts and ends with the OL. Oher is ranked 35th among 41 Tackles with atleast 75% of their teams snaps (PFF) and Osemele is not ranked much better at 32. I can to some extend live with Osemele and Reid being average as the guys are quite new to their positions, but the Oher as a LT is just horrible. I don't put much stock into the whole "Franchise LT" talk, but at least getting a competent one that can runblock, if nothing else, is a huge must. But also getting a competent OL coach would be great. You can do a lot on offense if you are able to run the ball effectively, control the clock and protect your QB, at least with a good offensive coordinator, I think even Bill Walsh said so.

In that sense Flacco is not really the root of the problem to me. Would I like him to be Tom Brady out there? Sure! But I too realize that getting the next Tom Terrific is about as likely as me picking my nose only to find a nugget of gold up there. Some teams keep trying to grap the next great QB year and year again only to fail and fail. The easy excuse is always that the QB is not good enough, but reality might be that the rest of the team is not good enough to support him. That might come down to coaching or to the supporting cast of players, but competent QB's are not easy to come by so when you've got one you might as well try to surround him with as much talent as possible. I like to think Houston is the perfect example of this, just like SF could be as well. Both teams don't really have that great of a QB, but they have system tailored to their strengths and weaknesses and a great cast of players around them to utilize that. The hard truth is that the Ravens don't, and until we start really building a team for Flacco we're not going to either.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

STrid wrote:
Just to chip in a bit, like I do from time to time Smile.

I think a lot of you guys are living in the illusion that it's still 2010 or so, back when we had a lot of really talented players in key positions. Do we still have some talented guys on the roster? Sure, but not nearly as many as we have had in years past.
This is most obvious on the defensive side of the ball. Lets chalk up the stars we have there: Ngata, Suggs, Webb, Reed and Lewis.

- Reed and Lewis are both arguably in the twilight of their respective careers and they do not play at a very high level anymore. Lewis has been hurt this season, but even so his level of play has taken quite a step down compared to previous years, which is of course to be expected at 37. That leaves Ray as a slightly above average ILB primarily because of the way he inspires on the field. Reed too has been on the decline for a few years now. While his coverage is still pretty good, his run support has been horrible for quite a while now which is not good for a team that has a tendency to give up a lot of rushing yards. Reed is not what he once was, and just like Lewis, can only be called above average because of his experience and leadership.

- Webb is out with an injury, but is a stud otherwise.

- Likewise Suggs has been hurt all year, but even coming off his DPOY season you could not argue that he was a premier pass rusher in this league. To prove that point Suggs was ranked as the 28th best pass rusher among DEs and OLBs by ProFootballFocus last year, even though he won the DPOY. Not to take anything away from Suggs' season, as he was by some margin the best run stopper in the same category, but in a league so dominated by passing that is hardly as impressive as it once was. The fact of the matter is that even though Suggs is really good his skillset does not match todays league nearly as well as we would probably like. I would probably rate Suggs as a top 6-7 DE/OLB in this league. When you factor in that Suggs is 30 by now you also realize that he's not going to get healthier as time goes on.

- Ngata had arguably his best year in 2010 with his 7 sacks and 48 tackles (Post season included), but since then his form has gone downwards. While he can still be a really dominant player at times he's not in that category of elite ENDs/DTs as he was a few years back. Accoring to PFF he is ranked 24th among all DTs/ENDs, who have played more than 50% of the defensive snaps, which is hardly impressive. Some of that you can possibly chalk down to the defense being quite poor, but it also tells a story about a guy who's maybe not as good as advertised.

The point I'm trying to make is that the players on this team mostly have a reputation of being good because of what they have done in the past and not what they do now. Of our five biggest stars on defense only two of them are below 30, and only two of them have actually played somewhat well this season (And that is counting in Webb). Do we have some guys on defense who could be good? Yes, absolutely, but right now those guys are not where we need them to be and the established stars are not pulling the weight of the players around them. Furthermore our strengths on defense are not in line with the needs of a modern football team. As mentioned above both Suggs and Ngata are primarily run stoppers and to a lesser degree pass rusher. We don't really have those studs that can get after the QB like a team needs these days.

The perception about the offense is the same. We like to think that we have a really talented team, and to some extend we do, but most of that talents is in the wrong places. You have Rice and Leach, arguably the best FB-RB duo, but then you have an OL who can't really runblock all that well. Likewise they have some weapons on offence, but the line can't passblock well enough to utilize Cam's moronic system. You've got a pretty good TE, but he's not really in the top 10, just like you've got a pretty good WR in Smith, but he's not really in the top 10 either.

To me the problems starts and ends with the OL. Oher is ranked 35th among 41 Tackles with atleast 75% of their teams snaps (PFF) and Osemele is not ranked much better at 32. I can to some extend live with Osemele and Reid being average as the guys are quite new to their positions, but the Oher as a LT is just horrible. I don't put much stock into the whole "Franchise LT" talk, but at least getting a competent one that can runblock, if nothing else, is a huge must. But also getting a competent OL coach would be great. You can do a lot on offense if you are able to run the ball effectively, control the clock and protect your QB, at least with a good offensive coordinator, I think even Bill Walsh said so.

In that sense Flacco is not really the root of the problem to me. Would I like him to be Tom Brady out there? Sure! But I too realize that getting the next Tom Terrific is about as likely as me picking my nose only to find a nugget of gold up there. Some teams keep trying to grap the next great QB year and year again only to fail and fail. The easy excuse is always that the QB is not good enough, but reality might be that the rest of the team is not good enough to support him. That might come down to coaching or to the supporting cast of players, but competent QB's are not easy to come by so when you've got one you might as well try to surround him with as much talent as possible. I like to think Houston is the perfect example of this, just like SF could be as well. Both teams don't really have that great of a QB, but they have system tailored to their strengths and weaknesses and a great cast of players around them to utilize that. The hard truth is that the Ravens don't, and until we start really building a team for Flacco we're not going to either.


Good post overall.

Couple of points though:

I think the team as a whole still has a similar number of "stars", however they are more evenly split than they were in the past. In the past, we had the vast majority on the defensive side and hardly any on offense. Now, in addition to the 5 on defense you mentioned, we have Rice/Leach/Yanda as guys that are top 5 at their positions, and an emerging star in Torrey.

The problem on defense, in my opinion, is that we've been focused on trying to build up the offense over the past few years with the higher draft picks -- unfortunately, one of our 'star' picks in Oher isn't panning out. Additionally, the year we did spend some picks on defensive guys early we haven't seen much return -- Kindle with his situation and Cody has been simply average (I still dont like how Kemo starts over him, personally). Not to mention just last season we were a hell of a defense -- this season, we've just experienced such a turnaround in starters and a new system which is a much more passive one as well. Obviously we lost Redding and JJ who were key veterans who played their roles well, and we started the season without our DPOY. We sucked. Once we got closer to getting Suggs back, two of our other "stars" went down for the year in Ray and Webb. Ed has been banged up and has been a liability, Ngata was banged up a good bit for a while, as was Jimmy, etc. I do agree that we need to infuse some more youthful talent on the defense this off-season, but I don't like to look at just this year and say "Our defense isn't very talented" -- I think we are still a very talented group overall, we just don't have the number of stars we're used to.

Offensively, I agree with your assessement -- our OL is putrid. Our tackles aren't very good (which I took give KO a bit of a pass, but I still think he's better suited at guard), Birk is still getting pushed around (I'm hoping Gradkowski can take over and play well, but I think it's somewhat telling that he wasn't even considered for the LG job), LG has been a revolving door with Harewood, Williams and now Reid, etc. We definitely need some stability there (which I think we could very well get with just a LT pickup -- move Oher back to RT, KO to LG and then we only have center to worry about with Gradkowski). But overall, I think our offense has a good amount of talent we just need a more consistent OL and play calling that allows our WRs to get separation via scheme since they struggle with getting it via their skills.
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's perfectly fair to question some of Ozzie's recent drafts. They have been 'solid,' but since '09 we've had basically two home run hits in Webb and Torrey Smith and a ground rule double with Dennis Pitta, but otherwise have not been up to snuff. We haven't even been able to rely on our 1st round picks, which in previous years had basically always turned into Pro Bowlers. We traded out of the 1st round twice in 4 years since and the two times we stuck around, we picked two thoroughly underwhelming players in Michael Oher and Jimmy Smith, who, even if you don't view them as busts, you certainly can't view as above average at this point.

The margin for error in the draft has tightened considerably: the rest of the league has caught up to us in terms of drafting and it shows. Even DeCosta admitted last year that the Ravens were caught off guard at how many of their targets came off the board before they expected them to in last year's draft. It's really not enough to draft a meaningful impact player once every 2 years in the draft anymore, and otherwise accumulate solid role players like Upshaw, Cody, or Zbikowski and not expect this team to fall behind the other contenders in this league. I think we do need to expect more from this front office, because between Ozzie and DeCosta they carry a huge reputation without great returns in recent years, and with a team that is in need of a talent infusion, we need better drafts. This team seems to lack athleticism and explosion on the defensive side of the ball and a lot of that comes back to the kinds of players we're recruting to play on this defense. There's been this assumption that we only ever needed to replace role players with role players and at some point that has caused a signficant decline in the potential of the defense. It just seems at times that we're working from a model that isn't necessarily in line with what works in the NFL right now.

Now, I don't think I agree with a lot of Mr. X's other points and it's perfectly clear that there is a clearer agenda of being Mr. Truth Teller than there is a desire to have a fair and balanced conversation (where any player who is not a star, even if it's Kruger or Art Jones, is a bust is a place where we've crossed over into lacking proper perspective). But I think there is something undeniable about the fact that our drafts have flat out not been good enough over the past 4 years. They haven't been bad, per say, but they certainly haven't been great.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
I think it's perfectly fair to question some of Ozzie's recent drafts. They have been 'solid,' but since '09 we've had basically two home run hits in Webb and Torrey Smith and a ground rule double with Dennis Pitta, but otherwise have not been up to snuff. We haven't even been able to rely on our 1st round picks, which in previous years had basically always turned into Pro Bowlers. We traded out of the 1st round twice in 4 years since and the two times we stuck around, we picked two thoroughly underwhelming players in Michael Oher and Jimmy Smith, who, even if you don't view them as busts, you certainly can't view as above average at this point.

The margin for error in the draft has tightened considerably: the rest of the league has caught up to us in terms of drafting and it shows. Even DeCosta admitted last year that the Ravens were caught off guard at how many of their targets came off the board before they expected them to in last year's draft. It's really not enough to draft a meaningful impact player once every 2 years in the draft anymore, and otherwise accumulate solid role players like Upshaw, Cody, or Zbikowski and not expect this team to fall behind the other contenders in this league. I think we do need to expect more from this front office, because between Ozzie and DeCosta they carry a huge reputation without great returns in recent years, and with a team that is in need of a talent infusion, we need better drafts. This team seems to lack athleticism and explosion on the defensive side of the ball and a lot of that comes back to the kinds of players we're recruting to play on this defense. There's been this assumption that we only ever needed to replace role players with role players and at some point that has caused a signficant decline in the potential of the defense. It just seems at times that we're working from a model that isn't necessarily in line with what works in the NFL right now.

Now, I don't think I agree with a lot of Mr. X's other points and it's perfectly clear that there is a clearer agenda of being Mr. Truth Teller than there is a desire to have a fair and balanced conversation (where any player who is not a star, even if it's Kruger or Art Jones, is a bust is a place where we've crossed over into lacking proper perspective). But I think there is something undeniable about the fact that our drafts have flat out not been good enough over the past 4 years. They haven't been bad, per say, but they certainly haven't been great.


I agree with this pretty wholeheartedly.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will say that ever since I started REALLY following the Ravens, in 2008 when they drafted Michael Oher, I never really understood the hype around Ozzie's "genius" status when it comes to drafts, because the only drafts I've seen have been from 2009-recent and yeah, those drafts have been very underwhelming to say the least.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I will say that ever since I started REALLY following the Ravens, in 2008 when they drafted Michael Oher, I never really understood the hype around Ozzie's "genius" status when it comes to drafts, because the only drafts I've seen have been from 2009-recent and yeah, those drafts have been very underwhelming to say the least.


Then you've really missed some awesome drafts. Passing on Lawrence Phillips to make JO the first pick of the Ravens franchise. Taking an undersized LB out of Miami at #26 who went on to become the GOAT. Finding a rotational receiver and dynamic, pro-bowl return man in the 5th (Jermaine Lewis). Signing an UDFA RB out of Texas (P. Holmes). And that was just 1996.

1997 - Peter Boulware and Jamie Sharper were awesome back to back picks. Everyone should know about Boulware, but I think Sharper gets underrated. He was considered one of the best LB's in the league when the Texans were able to grab him in the expansion draft. IIRC we left him unprotected due to salary cap hell. Kim Herring, Jeff Mitchell, Cornell Brown all ended up being contributors to the SB team.

1998 - Not stellar, but Duane Starks was very good in Bmore. Got rid of him for salary cap reasons. Patrick Johnson only other guy in this draft I really remember.

1999 - Only 4 picks in this draft but we got Chris McAlister, Edwin Mulitalo (4th) and Stokely (4th). Great draft IMO.

2000 - Ozzies first bust with Travis Taylor, but he also picked Jamal Lewis and Adalius Thomas in this draft.

2001 - Todd Heap, Gary Baxter, Casey Rabach, Ed Hartwell. Picks 1 - 4 after winning the SB. Amazing draft.

Could go on, but I'm at work. Prior to the last few years, Ozzie had an insanely high hit rate with first round picks. Also, beyond drafting his ability to lock up our key players long-term is among the league's best. His mantra of right player right price has served the organization incredibly well.
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DontTazeMeBro


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of these picks are still unknown because we have/had good starters at the position already.

Noone is beating out Reed/Pollard so there hasn't been a reason to go safety in the first 3 rounds.

Hasn't been a reason to go ILB early.

Pierce looks like a Pro Bowler but he is behind an All-Pro.

We don't know what we have with Doss and we won't find out as long as we have Q.

Noone was unseating Jarret Johnson. Now Kruger is flirting with 10+ sacks. And I think Upshaw is gonna be a monster.

Jah Reid is just now getting a shot with Grubbs gone. He is looking promising.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@sp: Well in 1996 I was five years old so I doubt I would've been able to comprehend the greatness of that draft Wink but yeah I sure have missed some good drafts, but hopefully I'll be around to witness some great ones as well!

@DTMB: Who the hell is this "All-Pro" RB you keep speaking of?! I always hear about him, but come game time I never actually see him with the football in his hands! Are you sure your research is correct?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

STrid wrote:

In that sense Flacco is not really the root of the problem to me. Would I like him to be Tom Brady out there? Sure! But I too realize that getting the next Tom Terrific is about as likely as me picking my nose only to find a nugget of gold up there. Some teams keep trying to grap the next great QB year and year again only to fail and fail. The easy excuse is always that the QB is not good enough, but reality might be that the rest of the team is not good enough to support him. That might come down to coaching or to the supporting cast of players, but competent QB's are not easy to come by so when you've got one you might as well try to surround him with as much talent as possible. I like to think Houston is the perfect example of this, just like SF could be as well. Both teams don't really have that great of a QB, but they have system tailored to their strengths and weaknesses and a great cast of players around them to utilize that. The hard truth is that the Ravens don't, and until we start really building a team for Flacco we're not going to either.


I would like to say though, that a quarterback can make an offensive line seem better or worse than it is.

I'm not saying that Ravens don't have a bad offensive line but he certainly doesn't help the situation with his poor pocket awareness and ability to make throws out of the pocket.

For example:

In 2005 with Kyle Boller as the team's starting quarterback the Ravens offensive line consisted of Jonathan Odgen (16 starts), Mike Flynn (16), Edwin Mulitalo (15), Orlando Brown (9), Keydrick Vincent (9), Tony Pashos (7), Brian Rimpf (7) and Jason Brown (1). That group allowed 42 sacks

In 2006 with Steve McNail as the team's starting quarterback the Ravens offensive line consisted of Mike Flynn (16), Tony Pashos (16), Jonathan Odgen (14), Jason Brown (12), Keydrick Vincent (12), Edwin Mulitalo (4) and Adam Terry (2). That group of almost the same players they allowed only 17 sacks, the second fewest in the NFL.

The difference was McNair's ability to tell where the rush was coming from, step up into the pocket or scramble out of the way and make plays when things were breaking down to avoid the sack.
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draftguru1234


Joined: 09 Feb 2011
Posts: 549
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The talent level on defense is definitely lacking with no Suggs, Webb, and washed up greats in Lewis and Reed. Not to mention Ozzie has failed to address the pass-rush for a while now albeit not for a lack trying.

But the guy thats dragged down this D more than anyone is Ngata. And it really pains me to say this, because just as recently as 2010 I considered him the best defensive player in the NFL. And with the way he started out last year, I thought we were in for something special. But as soon as he got paid, I haven't seen that player again. I know hes been banged up, but honestly if an injury can hinder you this much, you shouldn't be playing.

People mention guys like Suggs, Lewis, and Reed, but this defense goes as Ngata goes. When he is dominating, everyone on the defense looks better.
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 22986
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

draftguru1234 wrote:
The talent level on defense is definitely lacking with no Suggs, Webb, and washed up greats in Lewis and Reed. Not to mention Ozzie has failed to address the pass-rush for a while now albeit not for a lack trying.

But the guy thats dragged down this D more than anyone is Ngata. And it really pains me to say this, because just as recently as 2010 I considered him the best defensive player in the NFL. And with the way he started out last year, I thought we were in for something special. But as soon as he got paid, I haven't seen that player again. I know hes been banged up, but honestly if an injury can hinder you this much, you shouldn't be playing.

People mention guys like Suggs, Lewis, and Reed, but this defense goes as Ngata goes. When he is dominating, everyone on the defense looks better.


I disagree. The person that is dragging this defense down the most is Ed Reed. I haven't seen Ngata blow a coverage and give up a touchdown while making Cary Willliams look bad. I haven't seen Ngata get hurdled 5 times in one season. I haven't seen Ngata continuously arm tackle and drag defenders for an extra 5 to like 20 yards a play.

Ed Reed is a complete shell of a football player out there right now. It's just sad to watch.
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