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sp6488


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I still have no idea why we are paying Vonta Leach that much money when we rarely use the running game any more.

We might as well, under our new OC next year, just release Leach and sign some unknown FB/H-Back to run the position for us so we can save extra cap space.


You mention "when we rarely use the running game any more," then go on to discuss our new OC. Cameron was fired partially due to his seeming reluctance to incorporate our running game talent into the game plan. Wouldn't it make sense to allow the new OC to determine the importance of the FB position in our offense moving forward, rather than basing personnel decisions on a system/play-caller that is no longer affiliated with the team?
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp6488 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I still have no idea why we are paying Vonta Leach that much money when we rarely use the running game any more.

We might as well, under our new OC next year, just release Leach and sign some unknown FB/H-Back to run the position for us so we can save extra cap space.


You mention "when we rarely use the running game any more," then go on to discuss our new OC. Cameron was fired partially due to his seeming reluctance to incorporate our running game talent into the game plan. Wouldn't it make sense to allow the new OC to determine the importance of the FB position in our offense moving forward, rather than basing personnel decisions on a system/play-caller that is no longer affiliated with the team?


Well aren't we expecting a new OC to incorporate a new passing scheme? To me, in today's NFL it doesn't make sense (as much as I love Vonta and what he does) to pay an NFL Fullback that much money for his very limited role.

Why not have an H-Back (much like James Casey, for example) who can play both TE and FB so that you can come out with him on the field and the defense doesn't know whether he's going to be lined up as a FB or TE or even split out wide? This is why a guy like Marcel Reece is a nightmare for defenses in today's NFL, because he can literally play FB/HB/TE/WR and do them all effectively, whereas Leach is strictly a FB, so you're kind of limited in what you can do.

I'm not saying just straight up release him at the end of the season, but if the new OC wants to run 3 WR sets primarily for passing and then when we run either can run 2 TE or 2 WR sets, you really have a very limited option for using Leach, and that, to me, isn't worth the contract he's being paid. You guys are all about cap space and clearing cap space - well, this is one area that is easily voided of unnecessary money.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Leach a lot and I think he brings a lot to the running game (especially since Rice seems to have lost a bit of his explosiveness after bulking up) but he is mostly one-dimensional. I'm always entertained when Leach makes a reception but he can't really do anything with the ball once he gets it. I really doubt he gets cut though. Regardless of the type of offensive scheme the Ravens run Leach will still be the best run-blocking FB in the league and I really doubt the team moves away from the power running game. I see the point you're trying to make but guys like Reese and Casey aren't very common at all and I wouldn't expect to find anybody like them.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
I like Leach a lot and I think he brings a lot to the running game (especially since Rice seems to have lost a bit of his explosiveness after bulking up) but he is mostly one-dimensional. I'm always entertained when Leach makes a reception but he can't really do anything with the ball once he gets it. I really doubt he gets cut though. Regardless of the type of offensive scheme the Ravens run Leach will still be the best run-blocking FB in the league and I really doubt the team moves away from the power running game. I see the point you're trying to make but guys like Reese and Casey aren't very common at all and I wouldn't expect to find anybody like them.


Reece is definitely not common in the NFL. In fact, I think he's probably the rarest type of player you will ever find (outside of Vernon Davis, who is comparable to him, but nowhere near the blocker or ball-carrier that Reece is).

A guy like James Casey is easy to find, since he's just a converted TE. You take a TE like, say, Billy Bajema and simply put him in the backfield as a blocker, and it's that simple. Teach him the scheme, where he's supposed to go, etc. etc. and you have your H-Back. I'm not saying we should do this with Bajema, but there are thousands of college TE's out there who can be converted to H-Backs in the NFL. Heck, even college linebackers! I mean Marcel Reece was a WR in college and Seahawks FB Michael Robinson was a QB, so the possibility of finding someone who ONLY needs to block in certain packages should be VERY easy, which is why I don't think it's worth paying him as much as we pay him when we could spend that money on, say, a pass rusher?

EDIT: Of course, you need to find guys who are good at blocking and willing to block (they don't need to be on Vonta's level, but simply getting in front of someone and laying a hat on them is usually good enough to give the RB time to make a cut) is the key, though.
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
I like Leach a lot and I think he brings a lot to the running game (especially since Rice seems to have lost a bit of his explosiveness after bulking up) but he is mostly one-dimensional. I'm always entertained when Leach makes a reception but he can't really do anything with the ball once he gets it. I really doubt he gets cut though. Regardless of the type of offensive scheme the Ravens run Leach will still be the best run-blocking FB in the league and I really doubt the team moves away from the power running game. I see the point you're trying to make but guys like Reese and Casey aren't very common at all and I wouldn't expect to find anybody like them.


Reece is definitely not common in the NFL. In fact, I think he's probably the rarest type of player you will ever find (outside of Vernon Davis, who is comparable to him, but nowhere near the blocker or ball-carrier that Reece is).

A guy like James Casey is easy to find, since he's just a converted TE. You take a TE like, say, Billy Bajema and simply put him in the backfield as a blocker, and it's that simple. Teach him the scheme, where he's supposed to go, etc. etc. and you have your H-Back. I'm not saying we should do this with Bajema, but there are thousands of college TE's out there who can be converted to H-Backs in the NFL. Heck, even college linebackers! I mean Marcel Reece was a WR in college and Seahawks FB Michael Robinson was a QB, so the possibility of finding someone who ONLY needs to block in certain packages should be VERY easy, which is why I don't think it's worth paying him as much as we pay him when we could spend that money on, say, a pass rusher?

EDIT: Of course, you need to find guys who are good at blocking and willing to block (they don't need to be on Vonta's level, but simply getting in front of someone and laying a hat on them is usually good enough to give the RB time to make a cut) is the key, though.


I still don't think it's that easy to do. If it is why aren't more NFL teams doing it? The best examples are probably Hernandez, Reese, Clay, and Casey. Past that... eh.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
I like Leach a lot and I think he brings a lot to the running game (especially since Rice seems to have lost a bit of his explosiveness after bulking up) but he is mostly one-dimensional. I'm always entertained when Leach makes a reception but he can't really do anything with the ball once he gets it. I really doubt he gets cut though. Regardless of the type of offensive scheme the Ravens run Leach will still be the best run-blocking FB in the league and I really doubt the team moves away from the power running game. I see the point you're trying to make but guys like Reese and Casey aren't very common at all and I wouldn't expect to find anybody like them.


Reece is definitely not common in the NFL. In fact, I think he's probably the rarest type of player you will ever find (outside of Vernon Davis, who is comparable to him, but nowhere near the blocker or ball-carrier that Reece is).

A guy like James Casey is easy to find, since he's just a converted TE. You take a TE like, say, Billy Bajema and simply put him in the backfield as a blocker, and it's that simple. Teach him the scheme, where he's supposed to go, etc. etc. and you have your H-Back. I'm not saying we should do this with Bajema, but there are thousands of college TE's out there who can be converted to H-Backs in the NFL. Heck, even college linebackers! I mean Marcel Reece was a WR in college and Seahawks FB Michael Robinson was a QB, so the possibility of finding someone who ONLY needs to block in certain packages should be VERY easy, which is why I don't think it's worth paying him as much as we pay him when we could spend that money on, say, a pass rusher?

EDIT: Of course, you need to find guys who are good at blocking and willing to block (they don't need to be on Vonta's level, but simply getting in front of someone and laying a hat on them is usually good enough to give the RB time to make a cut) is the key, though.


I still don't think it's that easy to do. If it is why aren't more NFL teams doing it? The best examples are probably Hernandez, Reese, Clay, and Casey. Past that... eh.


Because right now teams are just starting to transition to the H-Back phase. Chicago uses an H-Back, Denver, Pittsburgh, New England, Indy, San Diego, New Orleans. They come in many variants, but the only teams that uses a traditional full back are Baltimore, Seattle, and SF and maybe a couple others.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't buy it. The transition to an offense more focused on passing has been going on for years and H-backs have been around just as long. Sure teams are using them but not exclusively nor are the majority of those guys actually an effective weapon in the offense (which is the main point I'm trying to make).

I highly doubt the Ravens would be able to find a player like that that would be a better threat in the passing game than Leach is in the running game. Like I said before I doubt that they get away from the power running game regardless of what coordinator is brought in so they still need a FB like Leach. It would be nice for them to add a H-back (Dickson was actually labeled by some as a H-back before that draft) to be a bit more flexible but I wouldn't want get rid of Leach in the process.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
I don't buy it. The transition to an offense more focused on passing has been going on for years and H-backs have been around just as long. Sure teams are using them but not exclusively nor are the majority of those guys actually an effective weapon in the offense (which is the main point I'm trying to make).

I highly doubt the Ravens would be able to find a player like that that would be a better threat in the passing game than Leach is in the running game. Like I said before I doubt that they get away from the power running game regardless of what coordinator is brought in so they still need a FB like Leach. It would be nice for them to add a H-back (Dickson was actually labeled by some as a H-back before that draft) to be a bit more flexible but I wouldn't want get rid of Leach in the process.


What makes you not buy it? An H-Back is simply a player that is not as good at catching as a TE, and not as good of a blocker as FB but offers a sort of "middle ground" between the two. I'm sure the Ravens could find a player like that and not have to pay him elite money (like we are paying Leach) to use him.

The money we are paying Leach right now is ONLY worth it if the scheme we are running gives Ray Rice 25-30 carries a game. Simply put; we don't do that.

EDIT: Or if you want to look at a more "glass half full" comparison, and H-Back is someone who is more athletic than a FB, and a better blocker than a traditional TE (or atleast better than Pitta/Dickson).
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was talking about not buying the league-wide H-back transition phase (I could have worded it better lol). I'm just not seeing it becoming the norm.

Leach is getting a bit overpaid right now but I don't think Rice needs 25-30 carries himself to justify the price. Getting Pierce about 10 carries a game while still using Rice at his current usage rate would be enough in my opinion. I would hope that the next OC will be more committed to the run given how the team is built but it's hard to say. Regardless I still can't see Leach being cut. An extension added with lowering his cap figure next season seems far more likely.
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NJ Raven


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TEBOW FOR H-BACK!






kidding.
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DontTazeMeBro


Joined: 20 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NJ Raven wrote:
TEBOW FOR H-BACK!






kidding.


If we win the Super Bowl and any doubt about Flacco as an elite QB is erased I would take him as QB2 in a heart beat.
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1/10. Not a fan[of C.J. Mosley]. Just another future failed Alabama product.
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draftguru1234


Joined: 09 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DontTazeMeBro wrote:
NJ Raven wrote:
TEBOW FOR H-BACK!






kidding.


If we win the Super Bowl and any doubt about Flacco as an elite QB is erased I would take him as QB2 in a heart beat.

Would you really want the Tebow circus that comes with him though?
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DontTazeMeBro


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

draftguru1234 wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
NJ Raven wrote:
TEBOW FOR H-BACK!






kidding.


If we win the Super Bowl and any doubt about Flacco as an elite QB is erased I would take him as QB2 in a heart beat.

Would you really want the Tebow circus that comes with him though?


That's why I say if we win the Super Bowl. Flacco is a Super Bowl winner, Tebow sits on the bench until we need him and everyone just stops talking about him. No circus.

I have a feeling if no one has the guts to start him, Belichick is gonna pick him up and then people are gonna be like, "were we wrong?"
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SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
1/10. Not a fan[of C.J. Mosley]. Just another future failed Alabama product.
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alfalcone


Joined: 25 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I still have no idea why we are paying Vonta Leach that much money when we rarely use the running game any more.

We might as well, under our new OC next year, just release Leach and sign some unknown FB/H-Back to run the position for us so we can save extra cap space.


You mention "when we rarely use the running game any more," then go on to discuss our new OC. Cameron was fired partially due to his seeming reluctance to incorporate our running game talent into the game plan. Wouldn't it make sense to allow the new OC to determine the importance of the FB position in our offense moving forward, rather than basing personnel decisions on a system/play-caller that is no longer affiliated with the team?


Well aren't we expecting a new OC to incorporate a new passing scheme? To me, in today's NFL it doesn't make sense (as much as I love Vonta and what he does) to pay an NFL Fullback that much money for his very limited role.

Why not have an H-Back (much like James Casey, for example) who can play both TE and FB so that you can come out with him on the field and the defense doesn't know whether he's going to be lined up as a FB or TE or even split out wide? This is why a guy like Marcel Reece is a nightmare for defenses in today's NFL, because he can literally play FB/HB/TE/WR and do them all effectively, whereas Leach is strictly a FB, so you're kind of limited in what you can do.

I'm not saying just straight up release him at the end of the season, but if the new OC wants to run 3 WR sets primarily for passing and then when we run either can run 2 TE or 2 WR sets, you really have a very limited option for using Leach, and that, to me, isn't worth the contract he's being paid. You guys are all about cap space and clearing cap space - well, this is one area that is easily voided of unnecessary money.


I think there is something to the notion of releasing Leach, if we run a similar offense to Cameron's (hire Norv turner) next year. Our offense has been schizophrenic this season, basically we have spilt between running the shotgun 3 receiver, 1 tight end, and 1 running back, along with the 2 receiver, 2 tight end, 1 running back pass heavy scheme, and our running formations with Leach in the game. Leach is unquestionably the best fullback in the game, but it might be beneficial to bring in a more versatile player like James Casey so we tip our plays left. Look at what Casey did in college before you peg him as just an H back.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/12535/type/college/james-casey
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@coordinator: The only team right now that would justify Leach's salary would be either SF or Minnesota - teams that run the ball a lot more than they pass and rely heavily on the run game. Not us. We are more versatile than that. If you don't buy it, then that's fine, but go look at team's roster and look at their FB spots and you'll see that most of them are converted TE's who couldn't catch passes but could block, but are more athletic than guys like Leach. They're guys who just do the dirty work and nothing else.

@alfalcone: I'm not saying Casey is just an H-Back, but that's the role he plays for the Texans now and he thrives in it. A guy like Casey was just my example because of how versatile he is.
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