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GOGRIESE


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 18829
Location: Austin Texas
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:

When was the last time a Bears player got into serious trouble? Tank Johnson back in what 06?...he keeps the roster in check because those players have the upmost respect for him…


Sam Hurd ring a bell?


Sam Hurd who had been doing it for years in Dallas you mean?


Ah but he got in trouble under Lovie Smith.
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
My main issue with all of this is that the Bears have been in the Stone Age offensively forever. We are embarrassingly behind the times in terms of talent innovation and play calling.

I really don't think hiring someone's QB coach who is a first time play caller is going to fix that.

If we won't to move from the Stone Age we need to make a bold move to create change. Hiring another Martz or Tice simply is not going to change a culture.


You can't possibly know that...Sean Payton wasn't even the OC in Dallas when the Saints hired him as HC...

There are plenty of guys out there who are QB coaches just waiting for an opportunity.


To the same degree that you don't know that there are a bunch of QB coaches who would be good OCs.

I don't know if LaFluer is a good play caller or an OC.

I know that Rick Dennison is a good play caller and OC.

There is only one way we are going to get Dennison and it is not going to be to offer him our OC position.

This is a cultural problem with the Bears and maybe you are right and Emery has the golden eye for OC talent but let's keep in mind he has NEVER hired a coach before and was brought in here for his ability to draft and not assemble a coaching staff.


I wouldn't be so sure on that considering I think most of the playcalling when he was in Denver was done by Shanahan and in Houston isn't it Kubiak who handles the play calling?...

This is my point about there being no knock out candidate on the offensive side of the ball out there to be an HC...the only coordinator I fully trust in is Gus Bradley but I'm still not sold he could do a better job than Lovie.
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GOGRIESE


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 18829
Location: Austin Texas
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:

You spoon fed me info…Laughing someone has a mighty high opinion of themselves considering what they have to back up their “inside info”…anyone who has any idea about how the media actually works will tell you that video is a crock...but I guess you can't see that.


Like I was saying you didnt read a lick.
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Madmike90


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:

You spoon fed me info…Laughing someone has a mighty high opinion of themselves considering what they have to back up their “inside info”…anyone who has any idea about how the media actually works will tell you that video is a crock...but I guess you can't see that.


Like I was saying you didnt read a lick.


Sure I didn't...as I told you before anything written by any sports writer is written in speculation...do yu honestly believe that Emery has already made up his mind before the season has even ended?
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GOGRIESE


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 18829
Location: Austin Texas
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:

You spoon fed me info…Laughing someone has a mighty high opinion of themselves considering what they have to back up their “inside info”…anyone who has any idea about how the media actually works will tell you that video is a crock...but I guess you can't see that.


Like I was saying you didnt read a lick.


Sure I didn't...as I told you before anything written by any sports writer is written in speculation...do yu honestly believe that Emery has already made up his mind before the season has even ended?


I think Phil Emery absolutely has a good idea of whats going to happen. Please tell what what the writers have been saying and how you absolutely know thats speculation.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7925
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Now to me those are some significant strikes and I ask this without be accusatory.

What is it that you think Lovie does well?


Have you ever heard a player say a bad word about Lovie Smith? No…he is one of if not the best man manager in the NFL… Players not saying anything bad about a coach is not much of an endorsement. Many great coaches are first rate pricks and are NOT liked by players. That is a very low bar to reach. But what IS liked is winning championships.

When was the last time a Bears player got into serious trouble? Tank Johnson back in what 06?...he keeps the roster in check because those players have the upmost respect for him… Not really, it is rather an example of picking players with relatively high character and since you believe Smith has nothing to do with that it is the result of the GM's work.

We have had the best D in the NFL over the course of his 9 years in charge…he is the reason we are the #1 team in takeaways over his tenure in the entire league… Takeaways mean little when the team cannot score as a result, just delays in the other team's scoring.

He has produced not only an elite D but also has a winning record overall even with the handcuff of having Jerry Angelo providing him with talent… AND high character players. And over the years the defense has not been elite only good with a couple of exceptions.

Smith does far more well than many give him credit for…IMO there aren’t 10 better HCs in the NFL.
There are any number of better HCs because Smith is only competent with one side of the ball. We need a real HC not just a DC with a higher title.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Badger75 wrote:
Always like these lists of coaches who are not leaving their team. Or aren't coming here.

Look at who has been hired since George Halas retired.

Jim Dooley only HC job
Abe Gibron same
Jack Pardee 1st HC job 1 WC
Neill Armstrong only HC job 1 WC
Mike Ditka 1st HC job, SB, annual playoffs
Dave Wannstadt 1st head coach, 1 playoff
D. Jauron only HC job, one playoff game
Lovie Smith, SB, NFC champ. game

Only Ditka and Smith in the modern era have beated the Packers twice and coached a SB team.

Smith has been twice as good as Wannstedt and Jauron.
Didn't Jauron have a HC job with Buffalo?
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:


So what is your point then?


The point you keep trying to push that its going to save Lovie doesnt look to be reality. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.


You mean pushing the facts?...the fact is injuries have hurt us all season...sure there has been other factors but injures have been a big one...as you agreed with...anyone who doesn't think so is delusional.
Injuries have hurt every team, most as bad as the Bears. What excuse will be trotted out next?
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:


So what is your point then?


The point you keep trying to push that its going to save Lovie doesnt look to be reality. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.


You mean pushing the facts?...the fact is injuries have hurt us all season...sure there has been other factors but injures have been a big one...as you agreed with...anyone who doesn't think so is delusional.


Once again missing the point. What your pushing is its going to save Lovie. There is no doubt it has hurt us. Injuries hurt alot of teams.


I don't need to push anything to save Lovie since I'm not Phil Emery lol…common sense will more than likely save him anyway...increase the offensive talent which is what Emery was brought in to do and find a competent OC and we would be a very difficult team to beat.


So you dont know what Phil Emery thinks but common sense will save Lovie? Laughing I love it when you make these statements with no evidence.
Under Smith it isn't difficult to beat the Bears - get a lead before the half and it is a slam dunk. The last 12 games where that was the case it is almost a CERTAIN LOSS, 0.0833 or 8.33%. Can't get much worse than that.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7925
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
TexasBearsFan wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Does it bother anyone that we were at the top of the Mountain in 2006 we were in the Superbowl we were an elite team.

Since that point we have missed the playoffs 4/5 years and are on pace for 5/6.

How do you fall off the mountain top that way?
Be a team w/an inferior roster who continually overachieves b/c of great coaching. As much as you hate Lovie Smith, since he has had players that fit what he wants to do in place he's never finished below 7-9, still has a winning record, has been to the playoffs multiple times w/ an inferior roster, and 2 NFCCGs to go along w/ a SuperBowl. The fact that he wins 80% of the time the team scores 18+ pts should be signal to you of just how great of a coach he is. No one, and I mean NO ONE could have gotten more out of this team over the last 7 years than Lovie Smith has. I'm getting to the point where I hope he does get fired so he can go work for a GM thats willing to give him an actual NFL roster for more than 1 year and watch him win a SuperBowl. He's the best Bears coach ever in my opinion and we'll rue the day we let him go.
Smith has been to the playoffs THREE times in 8 almost nine years. Ditka went 7 times in TEN years and is 10x the leader Smith is.

Almost NO ONE would have a team which continually makes the same mistakes year in year out. He has been a mediocre coach since the SB because he can't put together an offense and, in fact, is embarrassingly clueless about that process.

He will NEVER win a SB no matter where he goes and probably won't even get another HC job in the pros. If he does he won't win and

"The best Bears coach ever" Hysterical stuff, do you know how ridiculous that sounds and is? I would say that most of his success came BECAUSE of Angelo, not in spite of him.

Fortunately even the most blind or biased Bears fans are seeing through him now, as our opponents routinely do. After the next two upcoming embarrassments maybe even you will admit it.

And the pitiful attempt to exculpate him from the personnel decisions won't fly here. It is undeniable he had a major role in ALL of them.


So the Bears Super Bowl and any success they had was because of Jerry Angelo? Someone's been hitting the eggnog too hard.
I think that Smith has never been a real good coach far from the "best Bears coach."

Angelo turned around a Bears tradition of losing. Smith had a bunch of very good players when he got here for which Angelo was mainly responsible. He had a core to build on.

Turner ran a good offense and Rivera ran a great defense and Smith rode that to the Super Bowl then started acting like a jerk, letting Rivera go and demanding much more say in personnel decisions. He had another good year when teams collapsed before playing the Bears then was exposed ONCE AGAIN in the NFCC game as a poor coach. Giving Rodgers the initiative was fatal, as would be expected, and the team could not recover.

Five miserable years out of 8 is pathetic. And the period of misery coincides EXACTLY with Smith having more power. The team collapse in the second half is typical Smith. The conclusion is clear.
So you're claim is that giving Smith full control of his coaches (the only add'l power given) was more a detriment to success than Angelo's than Angelo's FA built oline getting old in 2 years and completely ignoring it through the draft nearly every year? Angelo never "ignored" the Oline. Picks that don't work out are not the same as "ignoring". And, yes, the coaching went downhill after Lovies started blundering in that area. The record shows this quite clearly. You cannot escape the fact that these picks were either WITH the approval or AT the instigation of Smith. Was there a Lovie lookalike doing all that scouting? And who were these great players that Angelo was responsible for? Angelo's draft history is so terrible you can not make this argument.
Future
HoFers:
Briggs, Tillman, Hester; Tommie Harris, Vasher, Forte, Alex Brown, Colombo, Grossman, Berrian, Tank Johnson, Orton, Benson, Chris Harris, Daniel Manning, Mark Anderson, Greg Olsen, Earl Bennett, Steltz, Bowman, Johnny Knox, Lance Louis, Paea, Conte, Webb. Three future Hofers and the others were either good enough to play for us for several years or another team after leaving here and some Pro Bowlers.

There is no excuse with personnel. Even w/o 1st round picks. There difference in having great personnel and mediocre is that the great coaches MAKE their players better and develop them. You could give Smith the NE team and it would be mediocre. Give BB the Bears and he would be challenging for the Championship year in year out.

1-12 when losing at the half tells it all. MISERABLE.
Al, he drafted 3 players in the top 3 rounds of the draft on the OL in 10 years, I'm sorry but he ignored the OL in the draft, anyone w/ a brain can see that. Drafting three OL in the first round out of 8 is under NO rational definition "ignoring" the line. Only someone desperate to defend Smith and throw all mistakes on Angelo would say something so stupid.

As for the future HOFers remark, no just no to the entire listed of bolded players. Where is this "list" not that it matters since a knowledge of punctuation should show you that I was referencing THREE players. Did you not pay attention when the use of the semi-colon was discussed in English class? As for them being very good, the vast majority of those players were drafted after 2005, your argument was Lovie took over a team in 2004 w/ lots of very good players (of which there was only Olin Kreutz and Brian Urlacher, neither drafted by Angelo) and took that team to a top 2 seed in 2 consecutive years w/ Kyle Orton and Rex Grossman respectively, then after he gained control of coaches that caused the decline, so you can't use any player drafted after 2005 as part of your reasoning. You won't accept the reality that Smith had a part in drafting so I adopted your perspective.

My argument on the other hand was that Angelo built a top 5 OL through FA and FA alone, and then completely ignored that position going forward which is why we had 2 years of success followed by utter garbage on the OL since. Of course, that is BS since 37% of his first round picks were OL.

Whose argument do you think makes more sense? Want to put it to a vote on here?

Everyone in the NFL knew the Bears had an inferior roster, so much so that year after year after 2007 the Bears were constantly picked to be a top 5 picking team. I have no idea what that is supposedly to mean. Lovie Smith to his credit, has never let the lack of talent on the roster keep him from fielding a competitive team, which has resulted in the team finishing no worse than 7-9 since 2004, even though there were several years where you could look at the roster and not see the Bears getting 5 wins.
It is astounding how low you will go to defend the indefensible. Smith is gone, just accept it. I don't know how much Chicago sports babble you listen to but it is clear the guy has no defenders now from the callers or the so called experts. The best he gets is "Well, it won't make any difference, as though coaches do not step in every year and have success." Smith is HALF a HC at best.
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Nads786


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Posts: 4161
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:


So what is your point then?


The point you keep trying to push that its going to save Lovie doesnt look to be reality. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.


You mean pushing the facts?...the fact is injuries have hurt us all season...sure there has been other factors but injures have been a big one...as you agreed with...anyone who doesn't think so is delusional.


Once again missing the point. What your pushing is its going to save Lovie. There is no doubt it has hurt us. Injuries hurt alot of teams.


I don't need to push anything to save Lovie since I'm not Phil Emery lol…common sense will more than likely save him anyway...increase the offensive talent which is what Emery was brought in to do and find a competent OC and we would be a very difficult team to beat.


So you dont know what Phil Emery thinks but common sense will save Lovie? Laughing I love it when you make these statements with no evidence.
Under Smith it isn't difficult to beat the Bears - get a lead before the half and it is a slam dunk. The last 12 games where that was the case it is almost a CERTAIN LOSS, 0.0833 or 8.33%. Can't get much worse than that.


I would like to see the stats for the best coaches in the league as well IE bellick tomlin harbaugh..
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7925
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:


So what is your point then?


The point you keep trying to push that its going to save Lovie doesnt look to be reality. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.


You mean pushing the facts?...the fact is injuries have hurt us all season...sure there has been other factors but injures have been a big one...as you agreed with...anyone who doesn't think so is delusional.


Once again missing the point. What your pushing is its going to save Lovie. There is no doubt it has hurt us. Injuries hurt alot of teams.


I don't need to push anything to save Lovie since I'm not Phil Emery lol…common sense will more than likely save him anyway...increase the offensive talent which is what Emery was brought in to do and find a competent OC and we would be a very difficult team to beat.


So you dont know what Phil Emery thinks but common sense will save Lovie? Laughing I love it when you make these statements with no evidence.


Do you understand the meaning of "more than likely" I never claimed that I knew what Emery was thinking or than Lovie would be saved...but I like the odds.


Yeah those odds are made up in your head and go against what most sports writers is saying will happen if we miss the playoffs.


Those sport writers are writing about "if" we miss the playoffs...two games in the season to go...if we go 10-6 and make the playoffs which is entirely possible...what do you think they will be saying then?


10-6 doesnt automatically mean we make the playoffs. We need help from teams no matter what. It depends on how far we go in the playoffs. One and done wont help him.


In your mind maybe.
Emery is not going to go down with the SS Lovie. His mind was made up after the Minn loss and the GB game just confirms it. Smith is a failure BY HIS OWN STANDARDS.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
I will further my position.

The debate over whether Lovie Smith should keep his job continues to rage, after a 7-1 start, and while I do not think that Lovie Smith is a terrible coach he is a victim of the times. The NFL has turned into an offensive league and Lovie Smith simply cannot do offense. In 9 years he has not been able to reach higher that 15 in the offensive rankings and the last 3 years we have been 24 or lower. We have had 4 offesnive coordinators in that time and we look like we will have a 5th very soon. Lovie, when it comes to offense, is an Atari mind in an Xbox world.

The Bears need an offensive revolution if they are going to compete with the Packers.

This will not happen if they simply hire another retread OC like Martz or if they go and get yet another 1st time play caller like Tice. Those are not bold moves, those are not moves that change the culture of the team those are not moves that will move us out of the stone age on offense and truly make the Bears relevant again. Those type of moves have failed 4 times in the past under this regime.

The Bears need a bold move. They need to bring in an offensive head coach that has called plays and had success and who can change the culture at Halas Hall of not drafting, developing or promoting offensive success. They need someone who will be innovative and adapt to the personnel and the situation. They need someone who will finally stop band aid fixing the offense and bring BALANCE to the team. This can be accomplished by going out and getting the best and the brightest offesnsive mind and hiring them to be the head coach and our leader, because these guys don't leave where they are being successful to become an OC.

The Bears need a culture change at Halas Hall, not another half measure or OC that will be fired in 2 years.

In today's NFL you cannot say we don't do offense well.
No he is a terrible offensive coach and therefore cannot be a great coach. He is HALF a coach.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:


You seem to be making this argument up on your own...I never said Emery wasn't open...I said he wasn't anywhere near as open as JA...so you had my point wrong from the start.


Great so now you can accept the information that is being piled against your coach.


What info is that?…from sports writers who are speculating on what will happen if we don’t make the playoffs…that’s not exactly enough for a grand jury wouldn’t you say…well maybe you would.


Brad Biggs,Jeff Dickerson,Morrissey and then this

http://www.csnchicago.com/pages/v11_videodetail?PID=6cLLTB-Ky7pAN0kD5CYw4PtchbhnbyW8mllUoC8


You can’t be taking this video seriously…can you?...let’s see firstly it’s again…speculation…the tag of the video is called…”CTL: Is Lovie on the hot seat?”...they are posing a question not saying they actually know anything…then they conveniently post the Bears offensive rankings but rather surprising fail to do the same with the defensive ranking…so that is real balanced journalism…then for the kicker and to show just how much horse crap this video is they go on to talk about Lovie’s facial hair like a bunch of school girls…I mean it’s like there are inside the franchise and know what is going to be important to Emery when it comes to making his decision /sarcasm…

Guys have opinions on Lovie and that is cool…I don’t feel it is right that we have consistently lost to the packers over the last few years…I don’t feel it is right where the offence has been over many years…I don’t even feel there is any way to get away from the fact that Lovie is poor when it comes to making offensive hires…but IMO Lovie is far from the problem with this team…Emery needs to take control of the hiring of staff and give the Oline the talent it needs to execute and offence…if he can do that he has the perfect HC to continue to have an elite D which would be a perennial playoff contender.


I can see you didnt even bother to read the work of the writers I posted. As I figured. Why do I need to spoon feed this information to you? (Yes two of those guys actually have insider information on that video you thought was garbage)

You know Brad Biggs talked about what you were saying that Emery should take control of the hiring. Someone asked him that question. He said that 1. Lovie doesnt have an infinite number of hiring. 2. Emery will not force a OC down Lovie's throat. Even Angelo let him have the last say.
When spoon feeding make sure to say "Now here is the airplace, landing, open up the hanger, bzzzz."
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nads786 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:


So what is your point then?


The point you keep trying to push that its going to save Lovie doesnt look to be reality. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.


You mean pushing the facts?...the fact is injuries have hurt us all season...sure there has been other factors but injures have been a big one...as you agreed with...anyone who doesn't think so is delusional.


Once again missing the point. What your pushing is its going to save Lovie. There is no doubt it has hurt us. Injuries hurt alot of teams.


I don't need to push anything to save Lovie since I'm not Phil Emery lol…common sense will more than likely save him anyway...increase the offensive talent which is what Emery was brought in to do and find a competent OC and we would be a very difficult team to beat.


So you dont know what Phil Emery thinks but common sense will save Lovie? Laughing I love it when you make these statements with no evidence.
Under Smith it isn't difficult to beat the Bears - get a lead before the half and it is a slam dunk. The last 12 games where that was the case it is almost a CERTAIN LOSS, 0.0833 or 8.33%. Can't get much worse than that.


I would like to see the stats for the best coaches in the league as well IE bellick tomlin harbaugh..
I will bet you there is not a coach who has been around 9 yrs who can match that miserable record which, by the way, is getting WORSE. When that is their record they get FIRED. Most are fired if they don't make the playoffs on a consistent basis. Few teams are willing to accept winning every other year. WE fired the greatest Bears coach of the modern era even though he went to the playoffs 70% of the time.
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