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Harper41


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raves wrote:
I think there is a definite difference between rewards for big hits and intent to injure which is what Goodell was trying to say.

I've stood by that the team had performance payouts for big hits, which a big hit could cause a cart off and the one cart off that we saw in the evidence released wasn't even caused by one of our players directly but by our player knocking a player off balance into another that was then carted off, and a true bounty system where you intentionally target and attempt to injure players.

I disagree with the intent to intentionally injure, basically I don't think they were going out there with any different thought than any other team "I'm going to hit these guys so hard I take them out of the game" and that's how all defensive players think whether they admit it or not and not "I'm going to go knock out someone to get that $10k", but I do agree with the fact we had a pay for performance program that rewarded players for the possibility of injuries.
Exactly, and all that needs to be said. It doesn't matter what the players thought or whether they wanted to injure someone or not, they got rewarded for it. Thats where we crossed the line.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
Raves wrote:
I think there is a definite difference between rewards for big hits and intent to injure which is what Goodell was trying to say.

I've stood by that the team had performance payouts for big hits, which a big hit could cause a cart off and the one cart off that we saw in the evidence released wasn't even caused by one of our players directly but by our player knocking a player off balance into another that was then carted off, and a true bounty system where you intentionally target and attempt to injure players.

I disagree with the intent to intentionally injure, basically I don't think they were going out there with any different thought than any other team "I'm going to hit these guys so hard I take them out of the game" and that's how all defensive players think whether they admit it or not and not "I'm going to go knock out someone to get that $10k", but I do agree with the fact we had a pay for performance program that rewarded players for the possibility of injuries.
Exactly, and all that needs to be said. It doesn't matter what the players thought or whether they wanted to injure someone or not, they got rewarded for it. Thats where we crossed the line.


So you agree it wasn't a true bounty scheme, but a pay for performance scheme where we overstepped it by adding payments for injuries as well?

I do believe we were over punished, not by a lot, but still over punished. Players being suspended sure but not the extent that they were, coaches, sure, but definitely not to the extent they were, loss of draft picks, just a little too much, give us our 2nd back!
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raves wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Raves wrote:
I think there is a definite difference between rewards for big hits and intent to injure which is what Goodell was trying to say.

I've stood by that the team had performance payouts for big hits, which a big hit could cause a cart off and the one cart off that we saw in the evidence released wasn't even caused by one of our players directly but by our player knocking a player off balance into another that was then carted off, and a true bounty system where you intentionally target and attempt to injure players.

I disagree with the intent to intentionally injure, basically I don't think they were going out there with any different thought than any other team "I'm going to hit these guys so hard I take them out of the game" and that's how all defensive players think whether they admit it or not and not "I'm going to go knock out someone to get that $10k", but I do agree with the fact we had a pay for performance program that rewarded players for the possibility of injuries.
Exactly, and all that needs to be said. It doesn't matter what the players thought or whether they wanted to injure someone or not, they got rewarded for it. Thats where we crossed the line.


So you agree it wasn't a true bounty scheme, but a pay for performance scheme where we overstepped it by adding payments for injuries as well?

I do believe we were over punished, not by a lot, but still over punished. Players being suspended sure but not the extent that they were, coaches, sure, but definitely not to the extent they were, loss of draft picks, just a little too much, give us our 2nd back!

I mean...Does it really matter? If we want to get into semantics than no, it wasn't a "true" bounty system, whatever that means. Regardless, we had bonuses being awarded to players for injuring other players. Thats unacceptable.
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep.

Raves, I'm not accusing you of this, but I've seen at least a couple Saints members sweep this under the rug because there's no solid proof of specific targets.

It's a ridiculous stance to take and shows how far some fans will go to protect their team.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerdouglass wrote:
Yep.

Raves, I'm not accusing you of this, but I've seen at least a couple Saints members sweep this under the rug because there's no solid proof of specific targets.

It's a ridiculous stance to take and shows how far some fans will go to protect their team.


Like I said, I've never disagreed that players were paid for performance that caused injuries, but the premise that Goodell was stating, which I disagreed with, was that they had a real intent to go out and purposely injure players for what amounts to chump change for them.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raves wrote:
tylerdouglass wrote:
Yep.

Raves, I'm not accusing you of this, but I've seen at least a couple Saints members sweep this under the rug because there's no solid proof of specific targets.

It's a ridiculous stance to take and shows how far some fans will go to protect their team.


Like I said, I've never disagreed that players were paid for performance that caused injuries, but the premise that Goodell was stating, which I disagreed with, was that they had a real intent to go out and purposely injure players for what amounts to chump change for them.

The way I see it is the players are obviously going to say they didn't BUT Roger Goodell has documents and proof that the Saints were rewarding players for doing exactly that, which would lead any reasonable unbiased person to believe that the players did have at least in the back of their mind the thought that if they take Player A out of the game, they get a nice little check.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
tylerdouglass wrote:
The argument you're using to defend the Saints is the same one I could use to defend a friend who is a criminal

"Well yeah, he broke the law. BUT I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE COPS! So I'm on his side! SCREW THE POLICE!"

You guys realize how homerish it makes you sound? It's ridiculous.

Accepting that our favorite team broke rules and needs to accept the consequences doesn't make us bad fans, it makes us rational, logical fans.


And with your argument I can say that you also feel that athurioty figures should be allowed to punish people without evidence just because they feel they should... Rolling Eyes

There is a reason the leauge is back tracking right now. THey may feel this happened but can't prove squat! This is america fellas, like it or not and if ya don't then I'm sure you can find somewhere else to live.

I believe in fair & due process, I believe in innocent until PROVEN guilty... the NFL did neither!

PS: If you could show me rock hard proof that your friend is a criminal then Id call the police myself but until you do I say mind your own busniess!

This is the issue. The NFL doesn't have to show us anything, they're the Saints "boss". If my boss suspects I've been stealing, he can fire me just for suspicion he doesn't have to show me ish. The NFL doesn't have to show Saints fans ANYTHING. The coaches RUNNING the program admitted to it happening. Come on guys, open your eyes. We did it, we got caught. You can say the punishment doesn't fit the crime and that's fine and I actually agree but to try and act like the crime didn't happen is just irrational.


While I agree with you in the context of boss/supervisor it's something completely different when your boss PUBLICLY attacks your character and crediability and try to ruin you in the court of public opinion on a subject that they have zero hard evidence.

When you do that it becomes more than just a boss/worker issue... it becomes a legal issue and in that the NFL has no authority.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerdouglass wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
tylerdouglass wrote:
The argument you're using to defend the Saints is the same one I could use to defend a friend who is a criminal

"Well yeah, he broke the law. BUT I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE COPS! So I'm on his side! SCREW THE POLICE!"

You guys realize how homerish it makes you sound? It's ridiculous.

Accepting that our favorite team broke rules and needs to accept the consequences doesn't make us bad fans, it makes us rational, logical fans.


And with your argument I can say that you also feel that athurioty figures should be allowed to punish people without evidence just because they feel they should... Rolling Eyes

There is a reason the leauge is back tracking right now. THey may feel this happened but can't prove squat! This is america fellas, like it or not and if ya don't then I'm sure you can find somewhere else to live.

I believe in fair & due process, I believe in innocent until PROVEN guilty... the NFL did neither!

PS: If you could show me rock hard proof that your friend is a criminal then Id call the police myself but until you do I say mind your own busniess!


The NFL isn't a court of law. They have no obligation to prove anything.

If my boss thinks I'm leaving work early every day. They can fire/suspend/write me up for it without providing proof.

The Saints aren't being charged with any crimes, so they don't get the benefits the justice system provides.



Actually they do…

When your boss publicly attacks your creditability and character in the court of public opinion it then becomes a legal issue if you want to pursue it.

When Rodger Goodell went on NFL network and slandered Vilma he made this more than an NFL issue, he made it a rights issue and that is protected under the constitution, not the CBA!

PS: not charged with crimes... sure but Vilma is out to prove it's the leauge and Goodell that is guilty of the crime. Get the story straight
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerdouglass wrote:
Yep.

Raves, I'm not accusing you of this, but I've seen at least a couple Saints members sweep this under the rug because there's no solid proof of specific targets.

It's a ridiculous stance to take and shows how far some fans will go to protect their team.


Actually that is just you using your own thoughts to prove your points.

My stance on this has nothing to do with my affection for the saints or saints players, instead it has to do with my personal connection to this issue.

I have played this sport defensivly on 3, thats right 3 different levels and EVERYWHERE i have been this pratice was not only accepted as the norm it was expected!!!

THe NFL has continuely profeted on this very pratice and the violence this sport contains has made it what it is today. Most fans who played on the high school level and below really do not understand exactly how this sport is really coached, played and advertised. The NFL still to this day sells this sport to the worldwide public as a barberic sport but are now (because of leagal issues) trying to use the phrase CLEAN... it ain't gonna work!

The sport will suffer just like the play on the field is suffering.

THis pratice (bounty/performance whatever you wanna call it) is still being supported right in front of your eyes but you dont hear about it because the powers that be keep your attention away from it with window dressing.

T-Raves... Do you know exactly what each one of those different decals on your Ohio State player helmets really mean? Especially the defenders... There are ones for hard hits, INTs, forced fumbles and fumble recoveries but my experience there are also ones for knocking the opposing offesnive skill players out of the game as well as ones for other issues.

There called and protected by the term GAME CHANGING DEFENSIVE PLAYS

Within those locker rooms, players know and are rewarded for what that actually mean. Like it or not, If a defender takes out the opposing QB... that is a defensive game changing play and he will be rewarded for it.

Now you wanna get into INTENT... Let me tell you, Ive played with many players during my time. I have a few friends who actually play in the NFL right now.

I hate to hurt you purest feelings but here is the facts... ALL DEFENDERS GO INTO THE GAME WITH BAD INTENTIONS!!! Money is not needed to create this. All the money respersented was a decal, a skin on the wall so to speak.

Most NFL defenders CONTRACTS (that are approved by the FRICKIN leauge) have clauses in them that clearly state that "GAME CHANGING DEFENSIVE PLAYS ARE REWARDED WITH BONUSES". Yet still the same contract states what is rewarded for performance plays like INT's, FF, FR, etc.

So wouldent those count as defensive game changing plays? WHy wouldent all that be combined into one?

It's because it's the NFL's dirty little secret way of having there very own unknown bounty system to permote better play on the field.

I have a personel friend who is a well known defender in the NFL whom I grew up with and am still very close to. THses things were pointed out to me, this is not just me running my fingers or speaking nonsense.

Believe what you want... support your precious NFL but PLEASE, do so with your eyes open!
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Raves


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodat, I have no problem with aggressive, I'm going to knock an opponent out mentality. I personally support it completely, I just agreed that we overstepped what the accepted norm, just doing it cuz it's expected, by adding money to it. Had we just kept the program for performance we would be good.

I know those leaves mean a lot, from everything from defensive plays, to big hits, to just playing extremely hard and making an impact even if it's not for stats.

I'm all about being aggressive, physical, and bad intentions, I teach that into the wrestlers I coach, but I teach them to do it within the limits of the sport. Heck I've even applauded my wrestlers when they've had some refs give them unnecessary roughness penalties and told them to keep at it just to tone it down a little to not get called again, but the Saints crossed the line only by adding money to it. Nothing else IMO.
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
tylerdouglass wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
tylerdouglass wrote:
The argument you're using to defend the Saints is the same one I could use to defend a friend who is a criminal

"Well yeah, he broke the law. BUT I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE COPS! So I'm on his side! SCREW THE POLICE!"

You guys realize how homerish it makes you sound? It's ridiculous.

Accepting that our favorite team broke rules and needs to accept the consequences doesn't make us bad fans, it makes us rational, logical fans.


And with your argument I can say that you also feel that athurioty figures should be allowed to punish people without evidence just because they feel they should... Rolling Eyes

There is a reason the leauge is back tracking right now. THey may feel this happened but can't prove squat! This is america fellas, like it or not and if ya don't then I'm sure you can find somewhere else to live.

I believe in fair & due process, I believe in innocent until PROVEN guilty... the NFL did neither!

PS: If you could show me rock hard proof that your friend is a criminal then Id call the police myself but until you do I say mind your own busniess!


The NFL isn't a court of law. They have no obligation to prove anything.

If my boss thinks I'm leaving work early every day. They can fire/suspend/write me up for it without providing proof.

The Saints aren't being charged with any crimes, so they don't get the benefits the justice system provides.



Actually they do…

When your boss publicly attacks your creditability and character in the court of public opinion it then becomes a legal issue if you want to pursue it.

When Rodger Goodell went on NFL network and slandered Vilma he made this more than an NFL issue, he made it a rights issue and that is protected under the constitution, not the CBA!

PS: not charged with crimes... sure but Vilma is out to prove it's the leauge and Goodell that is guilty of the crime. Get the story straight


That's great and all, but whatever Vilma and Goodell do in court will have no bearing on the punishments the Saints franchise received.

You're trying to group both situations into one, which is a poor way of looking at it.
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
My stance on this has nothing to do with my affection for the saints or saints players, instead it has to do with my personal connection to this issue.

I have played this sport defensivly on 3, thats right 3 different levels and EVERYWHERE i have been this pratice was not only accepted as the norm it was expected!!!

THe NFL has continuely profeted on this very pratice and the violence this sport contains has made it what it is today. Most fans who played on the high school level and below really do not understand exactly how this sport is really coached, played and advertised. The NFL still to this day sells this sport to the worldwide public as a barberic sport but are now (because of leagal issues) trying to use the phrase CLEAN... it ain't gonna work!

THis pratice (bounty/performance whatever you wanna call it) is still being supported right in front of your eyes but you dont hear about it because the powers that be keep your attention away from it with window dressing.
What? It happens everywhere, so it's not a big deal? Is that really your argument? I'm glad our law enforcement doesn't take that same approach to crime. Lots of people are doing drugs, so we might as well not try to stop them. It's a terrible way of looking at things.

If the NFL has rules against it, you better be ready to pay the consequences when you get caught. Other teams have it going on, that's fine. The Saints are the team who got caught!

Quote:
T-Raves... Do you know exactly what each one of those different decals on your Ohio State player helmets really mean? Especially the defenders... There are ones for hard hits, INTs, forced fumbles and fumble recoveries but my experience there are also ones for knocking the opposing offesnive skill players out of the game as well as ones for other issues.
Yeah, last I checked the Saints weren't getting in trouble for hits, ints, forced fumbles, causing injuries, or taking players out of the game. The Saints are getting in trouble for having MONETARY REWARDS attached to each of these items. The difference between a sticker and a salary cap circumventing reward is HUGE!
Quote:
Within those locker rooms, players know and are rewarded for what that actually mean. Like it or not, If a defender takes out the opposing QB... that is a defensive game changing play and he will be rewarded for it.
Again, you're falling back on your same argument. Just because it's happening a lot doesn't mean it's OK. See my point above that proves how weak this argument it.

Quote:
Now you wanna get into INTENT... Let me tell you, Ive played with many players during my time. I have a few friends who actually play in the NFL right now.

I hate to hurt you purest feelings but here is the facts... ALL DEFENDERS GO INTO THE GAME WITH BAD INTENTIONS!!! Money is not needed to create this. All the money respersented was a decal, a skin on the wall so to speak.
Again. Intention to hurt is totally different that accepting money for knocking an opponent out of the game. The fact that you're ignoring this is baffling to me. I've never ONCE said I don't want our defense to play mean and lay the wood every chance they get. The problem comes when they are accepting money under the table for it.
Quote:

Most NFL defenders CONTRACTS (that are approved by the FRICKIN leauge) have clauses in them that clearly state that "GAME CHANGING DEFENSIVE PLAYS ARE REWARDED WITH BONUSES". Yet still the same contract states what is rewarded for performance plays like INT's, FF, FR, etc.

So wouldent those count as defensive game changing plays? WHy wouldent all that be combined into one?
Because it wasn't part of their contracts in this instance. It was all under the table, all illegal.
Quote:

It's because it's the NFL's dirty little secret way of having there very own unknown bounty system to permote better play on the field.

I have a personel friend who is a well known defender in the NFL whom I grew up with and am still very close to. THses things were pointed out to me, this is not just me running my fingers or speaking nonsense.

Believe what you want... support your precious NFL but PLEASE, do so with your eyes open!


Again with this argument. I'm not going to debate this point any more.

Something happening a lot doesn't make it legal.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TD,

I respect your opinion on this subject but I do not agree. We will not always see eye to eye on all issues and that's fine. I never said I agree with it or that because everyone does it that its ok... I simply wanted to make clear that this is a subject that goes far beyond what the NFL has accused the Saints of. This is in a weird sort of way, the NFL's own self inflicted issue.

My whole stance on this is the NFL's disgusting use of concern for player safety as the reasoning for such harsh punishments to our Saints.

If the NFL was not under such heavy pressure steming from the class action law suits by former players, this would have simply been a blip on the screen and the media would have NEVER heard of Bounty Gate. The NFL and Rodger Goodell used this situation as there smoking gun to CTA!

THe fact that people actually believe the NFL when they say they are actually concerned about player safety but still continue to push for a 18 game season, want extended playoffs & have players playing on Thursday night is absolutely funny to me.

If Rodger Goodell would have said...

"I punished the Saints because although this activity has been ongoing in the NFL, it must be stopped. Yes, I actknowledge that the NFL is partly responsiable for this way of thinking and understand that we as a instituation have continued to market this product as a violent barbaric sport, the time has come for a change in our way of thinking. THis league has droped the ball on player safety in the past and we regret that fact, we actknoledge that we in the past put our players in an unsafe working enviorment and did not supply them with all the best information and equipment to best protect themselves and or make themselves aware of the risk they face. We are moving in a new direction and the punishment of the New Orleans Saints franchise and players is a statement to our entire league that times are changing for the betterment of the league and everyone in it."

A statement like that I could have got behind... we all know that is the real truth and yet we also all know why something like that could and would NEVER be said by the NFL.

So, just because they won't say it because of obvious reasons... does that make them right?
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