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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 3161
Location: Nawlins
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote]

You don't remember Gregg Williams specifically explaining how players were paid for hits that injured opponents? Are you blocking that out?

http://assets.espn.go.com/pdf/2012/0917/greggwilliamsdocument.pdf[/quote]

Sorry... I don't believe anything Greg Williams has said now, to me the guy has zero credibility to me!

People forget what Williams brought to this team when he arrived. Vitt was already here and our defense was atrocious. Williams came in with his brash bravado and his "knockem the F out" tee shirts. Williams was the one with the well documented bounty system and Sean Payton allowed this guy to come in and implement his scheme and all that came with it.

The problem was that after they won a superbowl, Williams massive ego took over and he got out of control. He in his own mind became untouchable.
Then the front office began getting their warnings from the leauge but by then Williams was out of control and firing him would have only made things worse because then Williams would rat out Payton and company for there wrong doings as well.

The saints in my opinion are guilty to an extent. Their guilty for allowing Greg Williams to go rouge with his unethical system and for not shutting it down when they were warned. In short, they let their dog off the leash and now are responsible for the damage it caused.

However I also feel the punishment applied was completely an agenda based sham for the leauge to CTA in federal court!

Greg Williams is a worthless "feels he above the system and everyone" type of guy that will lie and cheat to get his way. My family has a prominent fishing busniess in south Louisiana and since Williams time in Tennessee he has been a client and I've meet him numerous times and got to know him, his son and Jeff Fisher and to be honest I hope to never meet Williams again. He is a extremly argont loudmouth who will say anything to get his way. It is my opinion through my own experience with him that Williams is lying on Joe Vitt in order to place blame on someone else in order to try to save face and save his career.

Everything this franchise has gone through is because of Williams and like I said before, if you let ur dog loose and he kills someone you will be serverly punished but the dog is also put to death...

I will be watching very closely to see how Williams career progresses from this point on. The NFL gave the saints the kiss of death for making a deal with the devil (Williams) but to me it seems they have now made the same deal.

In short... If your hanging your hat on what Greg Williams said, then you might wanna do a little more research on the man you attach your name to.
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Harper41


Joined: 29 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh come on, read that crap from an outsiders point of view. Clear Saints bias. We all love our Saints, but some of us are really letting it clowd our judgement.
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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
Oh come on, read that crap from an outsiders point of view. Clear Saints bias. We all love our Saints, but some of us are really letting it clowd our judgement.


You got me wrong...

I do believe the Saints (don't know exactly who) were guilty of something (don't know exactly what) and deserved to be punished.

Now, the punishment I feel should have been more severe than what the Packers recieved for basically the same thing, just the saints refused to comply with ending their program when they were told to do so.

However... I do not believe that the difference between what the Packers were caught doing followed by a punishment of a warning then ga sweep under the rug compared to what the Saints got for basically being stubbron was fair.

Yes I believe the Saints program was more detailed than the Packers and they were warned but how do you go from a sweep under the rug on one end to the most severe suspensions the leauge has ever seen on the other?

It is what it is... the Saints were caught doing something everyone in the NFL was guilty of at one point or another. THe Leauge was/is under fire in a potential severly damaging court case with the former players and the heavy handed commish looked at this situatuion as a potential saving grace for the bettermient of the leauge to be his ace in the hole to help him prove later down the line in a court of law that he is doing everything in his power to make the game safe.

Rodger Goodell has continued to state that he will not back off his stance and he feels he acted in the best intrest of the leauge when handling the bounty case. WHat fans fail to realize is he in fact is telling the truth because if you take out the Saints season and Goodells image that has both taken a hit in this... When the leauges lawyers are battling this class action lawsuit in court down the line, they will use Goodells actions aginist the Saints as one of their key points in how the leauge is making the game safer.

So, reguardless if it was right or wrong... if the Saints are guilty or not. Rodger Goodell and the leauge office have thier smoking gun, they have their ace in the hole and that was what this was about all along.

The leauge could care less about the Saints hopes of a home superbowl or Sean Paytons suspension or even what the fans in New Orleans think (small market). They may say they do, but they don't. You really think that the leauge gives two craps about what Drew Brees thinks of Goodell and his credability? NO!

The league is facing unpresidented lawsuits by the former players and the players evidence is growing stronger by the minute. WHo do you think will be the bigger losers in this... THE OWNERS!!!

WHat do you think these guys talk about at these owners meetings?

I firmly believe that while the Saints were guilty to an extent, TOm Benson was onboard and took one ofr the team here for the betterminet of the leauge and the owners pockets in the long run.

My opinion
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't read that whole thing honestly because I'm on my phone but the Packers didn't do the same thing, not even close. They had a pay for PERFORMANCE program, which is simply cap circumvention. Our Pay for "performance" system also included cart offs and knock outs which is where we crossed the line, plain and simple, no excuses. We got caught, lets take it like men and not come up with every excuse we can possibly think of.
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a lot of fans aren't remembering:

We still have a chance to get our 2nd round pick back based on good behavior.

With Vilma still fighting Goodell in court, Tagliabue ruling in favor of the Saints, and our coaching staff (former and current) bickering amongst themselves we are really really really closing the door on any chance at getting that pick back.

Let's say you ground your kid for 2 weeks and take his XBOX away for 3 weeks because he got bad grades, let's also say you tell him he might get his xbox back early if he's good. Are you going to give him his xbox back early if he's still fighting you about the punishment, and saying "Why isn't my sister in trouble too? She didn't eat all of her vegetables?"

By putting up such a fight and making this such a mess, the Saints are only hurting their chances at a mid-2nd round pick.
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lifeinthaboot


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
I didn't read that whole thing honestly because I'm on my phone but the Packers didn't do the same thing, not even close. They had a pay for PERFORMANCE program, which is simply cap circumvention. Our Pay for "performance" system also included cart offs and knock outs which is where we crossed the line, plain and simple, no excuses. We got caught, lets take it like men and not come up with every excuse we can possibly think of.


GTFO!!!
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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lifeinthaboot wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
I didn't read that whole thing honestly because I'm on my phone but the Packers didn't do the same thing, not even close. They had a pay for PERFORMANCE program, which is simply cap circumvention. Our Pay for "performance" system also included cart offs and knock outs which is where we crossed the line, plain and simple, no excuses. We got caught, lets take it like men and not come up with every excuse we can possibly think of.


GTFO!!!


Tell'em BOOT!

Hey Tyler D... forget about dat 2nd rounder, it ain't never coming back. I don't care what Goodell said or what the Saints do. The leauge will never give that pick back.
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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
I didn't read that whole thing honestly because I'm on my phone but the Packers didn't do the same thing, not even close. They had a pay for PERFORMANCE program, which is simply cap circumvention. Our Pay for "performance" system also included cart offs and knock outs which is where we crossed the line, plain and simple, no excuses. We got caught, lets take it like men and not come up with every excuse we can possibly think of.


There's two sides to every story... sure you can sit there and say, hey we got caught lets take it like men. Just like I can say F dat, sure we were wrong but we dident deserve what we got and i hope the players and coaches fight this tooth and nail till the end of their days. I hope they drag it on and through the superbowl and continue to black eye the leauge. Go to court and use every loop hole you can to make this a PR nightmare for goodie boy Goodell.

We simply interpet the evidence and punishment differently... not that either of us are wrong but we simply disagree.

I tend to have faith in our franchise and the men in charge while you support the machine. No biggie, neither of us have STONE COLD FACTS, undeinable evidence or were in those locker rooms so this is simply a debate on what we each choose to believe.

THere's a line drawn, on one side there is the NFL and on the other theirs the Saints players and brass. I know what side im on and its clear where you stand.

WhoDat... I guess
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The argument you're using to defend the Saints is the same one I could use to defend a friend who is a criminal

"Well yeah, he broke the law. BUT I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE COPS! So I'm on his side! SCREW THE POLICE!"

You guys realize how homerish it makes you sound? It's ridiculous.

Accepting that our favorite team broke rules and needs to accept the consequences doesn't make us bad fans, it makes us rational, logical fans.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerdouglass wrote:
The argument you're using to defend the Saints is the same one I could use to defend a friend who is a criminal

"Well yeah, he broke the law. BUT I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE COPS! So I'm on his side! SCREW THE POLICE!"

You guys realize how homerish it makes you sound? It's ridiculous.

Accepting that our favorite team broke rules and needs to accept the consequences doesn't make us bad fans, it makes us rational, logical fans.


And with your argument I can say that you also feel that athurioty figures should be allowed to punish people without evidence just because they feel they should... Rolling Eyes

There is a reason the leauge is back tracking right now. THey may feel this happened but can't prove squat! This is america fellas, like it or not and if ya don't then I'm sure you can find somewhere else to live.

I believe in fair & due process, I believe in innocent until PROVEN guilty... the NFL did neither!

PS: If you could show me rock hard proof that your friend is a criminal then Id call the police myself but until you do I say mind your own busniess!
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Harper41


Joined: 29 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
tylerdouglass wrote:
The argument you're using to defend the Saints is the same one I could use to defend a friend who is a criminal

"Well yeah, he broke the law. BUT I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE COPS! So I'm on his side! SCREW THE POLICE!"

You guys realize how homerish it makes you sound? It's ridiculous.

Accepting that our favorite team broke rules and needs to accept the consequences doesn't make us bad fans, it makes us rational, logical fans.


And with your argument I can say that you also feel that athurioty figures should be allowed to punish people without evidence just because they feel they should... Rolling Eyes

There is a reason the leauge is back tracking right now. THey may feel this happened but can't prove squat! This is america fellas, like it or not and if ya don't then I'm sure you can find somewhere else to live.

I believe in fair & due process, I believe in innocent until PROVEN guilty... the NFL did neither!

PS: If you could show me rock hard proof that your friend is a criminal then Id call the police myself but until you do I say mind your own busniess!

This is the issue. The NFL doesn't have to show us anything, they're the Saints "boss". If my boss suspects I've been stealing, he can fire me just for suspicion he doesn't have to show me ish. The NFL doesn't have to show Saints fans ANYTHING. The coaches RUNNING the program admitted to it happening. Come on guys, open your eyes. We did it, we got caught. You can say the punishment doesn't fit the crime and that's fine and I actually agree but to try and act like the crime didn't happen is just irrational.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lifeinthaboot wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
I didn't read that whole thing honestly because I'm on my phone but the Packers didn't do the same thing, not even close. They had a pay for PERFORMANCE program, which is simply cap circumvention. Our Pay for "performance" system also included cart offs and knock outs which is where we crossed the line, plain and simple, no excuses. We got caught, lets take it like men and not come up with every excuse we can possibly think of.


GTFO!!!

Oh lord. Another one of those "the NFL made up the bounty system" nuts. Yeah guys, he totally just picked a team out of a hat and decided to pin a bounty program on us. Jesus.
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
tylerdouglass wrote:
The argument you're using to defend the Saints is the same one I could use to defend a friend who is a criminal

"Well yeah, he broke the law. BUT I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE COPS! So I'm on his side! SCREW THE POLICE!"

You guys realize how homerish it makes you sound? It's ridiculous.

Accepting that our favorite team broke rules and needs to accept the consequences doesn't make us bad fans, it makes us rational, logical fans.


And with your argument I can say that you also feel that athurioty figures should be allowed to punish people without evidence just because they feel they should... Rolling Eyes

There is a reason the leauge is back tracking right now. THey may feel this happened but can't prove squat! This is america fellas, like it or not and if ya don't then I'm sure you can find somewhere else to live.

I believe in fair & due process, I believe in innocent until PROVEN guilty... the NFL did neither!

PS: If you could show me rock hard proof that your friend is a criminal then Id call the police myself but until you do I say mind your own busniess!


The NFL isn't a court of law. They have no obligation to prove anything.

If my boss thinks I'm leaving work early every day. They can fire/suspend/write me up for it without providing proof.

The Saints aren't being charged with any crimes, so they don't get the benefits the justice system provides.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerdouglass wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
tylerdouglass wrote:
The argument you're using to defend the Saints is the same one I could use to defend a friend who is a criminal

"Well yeah, he broke the law. BUT I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE COPS! So I'm on his side! SCREW THE POLICE!"

You guys realize how homerish it makes you sound? It's ridiculous.

Accepting that our favorite team broke rules and needs to accept the consequences doesn't make us bad fans, it makes us rational, logical fans.


And with your argument I can say that you also feel that athurioty figures should be allowed to punish people without evidence just because they feel they should... Rolling Eyes

There is a reason the leauge is back tracking right now. THey may feel this happened but can't prove squat! This is america fellas, like it or not and if ya don't then I'm sure you can find somewhere else to live.

I believe in fair & due process, I believe in innocent until PROVEN guilty... the NFL did neither!

PS: If you could show me rock hard proof that your friend is a criminal then Id call the police myself but until you do I say mind your own busniess!


The NFL isn't a court of law. They have no obligation to prove anything.

If my boss thinks I'm leaving work early every day. They can fire/suspend/write me up for it without providing proof.

The Saints aren't being charged with any crimes, so they don't get the benefits the justice system provides.

Ding ding ding. This is the point a lot of Saints fans can't come to terms with.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there is a definite difference between rewards for big hits and intent to injure which is what Goodell was trying to say.

I've stood by that the team had performance payouts for big hits, which a big hit could cause a cart off and the one cart off that we saw in the evidence released wasn't even caused by one of our players directly but by our player knocking a player off balance into another that was then carted off, and a true bounty system where you intentionally target and attempt to injure players.

I disagree with the intent to intentionally injure, basically I don't think they were going out there with any different thought than any other team "I'm going to hit these guys so hard I take them out of the game" and that's how all defensive players think whether they admit it or not and not "I'm going to go knock out someone to get that $10k", but I do agree with the fact we had a pay for performance program that rewarded players for the possibility of injuries.
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