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Are you a Believer?
Yes
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 78%  [ 22 ]
No
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 21%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 28

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Estonianzulu


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:

It's not like Cribbs went 60 yards and we had to run down to get the play off.

It was like a <20 yard play. No excuse for not being able to get the next play off, regardless of the outcome of the Cribbs play.

Hell, QB SNEAK!!!!!


I guess, but then again our goal to go offense has been atrocious
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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Estonianzulu wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:

It's not like Cribbs went 60 yards and we had to run down to get the play off.

It was like a <20 yard play. No excuse for not being able to get the next play off, regardless of the outcome of the Cribbs play.

Hell, QB SNEAK!!!!!


I guess, but then again our goal to go offense has been atrocious


Agreed

I just feel like between a quick sneak or using our 3rd overall pick, we should be able to get it in.

The problem for me is that we are never ready to go after some of these bigger plays.

You are right though, he is young and could grow. The only thing we don't know is, will he.
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mistakebytehlak


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
The biggest weaknesses for Pat at the moment, are clock management situations and play calling.

The play calling was much better last week as we finally opened it up and played loose.

The clock management is maddening. Just the ones that stick out...

1. Granted the game was in hand, but challenging the Cribbs TD last week when it would be 1st and goal from about 6 inches. A. He didn't look in B. You have 4 plays to get 6 inches.

2. Running a play 6 second before the 2 minute warning in the Cowboys game. They would have had 30-40 fewer seconds for their game tying score. That cost us the game (as did other things)

They are other sitations, you have all seen them.

Those are both things that can improve. Will they? I don't know


the challenge, IMO, was good. i would have done it. if i was head coach, I'd want Josh Cribbs (who players look up to) to know that I have his back. I want Josh Cribbs to get rewards for a TD if it is a TD.
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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mistakebytehlak wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
The biggest weaknesses for Pat at the moment, are clock management situations and play calling.

The play calling was much better last week as we finally opened it up and played loose.

The clock management is maddening. Just the ones that stick out...

1. Granted the game was in hand, but challenging the Cribbs TD last week when it would be 1st and goal from about 6 inches. A. He didn't look in B. You have 4 plays to get 6 inches.

2. Running a play 6 second before the 2 minute warning in the Cowboys game. They would have had 30-40 fewer seconds for their game tying score. That cost us the game (as did other things)

They are other sitations, you have all seen them.

Those are both things that can improve. Will they? I don't know


the challenge, IMO, was good. i would have done it. if i was head coach, I'd want Josh Cribbs (who players look up to) to know that I have his back. I want Josh Cribbs to get rewards for a TD if it is a TD.


Well when you look at the video, or have someone upstairs whose sole purpose is checking for reviewable plays, and you see there doesn't look like there is enough evidence to overturn, you do it anyway???

Again, it didn't matter because it was a blow out. If it was a close game and we needed those TO's or even the challenge, I would be pissed if he did it.

If it was a 4th down play, obviously you do it. It was first and goal with less than a foot.
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ReggieCamp


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
mistakebytehlak wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
The biggest weaknesses for Pat at the moment, are clock management situations and play calling.

The play calling was much better last week as we finally opened it up and played loose.

The clock management is maddening. Just the ones that stick out...

1. Granted the game was in hand, but challenging the Cribbs TD last week when it would be 1st and goal from about 6 inches. A. He didn't look in B. You have 4 plays to get 6 inches.

2. Running a play 6 second before the 2 minute warning in the Cowboys game. They would have had 30-40 fewer seconds for their game tying score. That cost us the game (as did other things)

They are other sitations, you have all seen them.

Those are both things that can improve. Will they? I don't know


the challenge, IMO, was good. i would have done it. if i was head coach, I'd want Josh Cribbs (who players look up to) to know that I have his back. I want Josh Cribbs to get rewards for a TD if it is a TD.


Well when you look at the video, or have someone upstairs whose sole purpose is checking for reviewable plays, and you see there doesn't look like there is enough evidence to overturn, you do it anyway???

Again, it didn't matter because it was a blow out. If it was a close game and we needed those TO's or even the challenge, I would be pissed if he did it.

If it was a 4th down play, obviously you do it. It was first and goal with less than a foot.

You guys are both making good points, and I personally would not have challenged it, but these were Shurmur's comments from his presser on Monday:

Quote:
"Quite frankly, I challenged that play because I did think, based on the replay I saw, and of course the instruction from the press box that he got in. I also wanted Josh (Cribbs) to have a touchdown. I thought that was worth it. We saw when they got the ball to the three yard line, they didn't score. It's never a guarantee. When it's that close I think it's worth it at times."

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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ReggieCamp wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
mistakebytehlak wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
The biggest weaknesses for Pat at the moment, are clock management situations and play calling.

The play calling was much better last week as we finally opened it up and played loose.

The clock management is maddening. Just the ones that stick out...

1. Granted the game was in hand, but challenging the Cribbs TD last week when it would be 1st and goal from about 6 inches. A. He didn't look in B. You have 4 plays to get 6 inches.

2. Running a play 6 second before the 2 minute warning in the Cowboys game. They would have had 30-40 fewer seconds for their game tying score. That cost us the game (as did other things)

They are other sitations, you have all seen them.

Those are both things that can improve. Will they? I don't know


the challenge, IMO, was good. i would have done it. if i was head coach, I'd want Josh Cribbs (who players look up to) to know that I have his back. I want Josh Cribbs to get rewards for a TD if it is a TD.


Well when you look at the video, or have someone upstairs whose sole purpose is checking for reviewable plays, and you see there doesn't look like there is enough evidence to overturn, you do it anyway???

Again, it didn't matter because it was a blow out. If it was a close game and we needed those TO's or even the challenge, I would be pissed if he did it.

If it was a 4th down play, obviously you do it. It was first and goal with less than a foot.

You guys are both making good points, and I personally would not have challenged it, but these were Shurmur's comments from his presser on Monday:

Quote:
"Quite frankly, I challenged that play because I did think, based on the replay I saw, and of course the instruction from the press box that he got in. I also wanted Josh (Cribbs) to have a touchdown. I thought that was worth it. We saw when they got the ball to the three yard line, they didn't score. It's never a guarantee. When it's that close I think it's worth it at times."


I do agree that it's never a guarantee, as probable as it was.

I wonder what is going through Josh's head. First he doesn't get more than 1 or 2 offensive snaps per game, now he may lose PR duties to Benjamin. Then his coach tells the press how he wanted Josh to get his TD. lol

I can agree with some of Mistake's reasons.

Had it been a close game, I would say no challenge. In this situation, I guess I am alright with it.

Gotta question the review guy we have upstairs though.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
mistakebytehlak wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
The biggest weaknesses for Pat at the moment, are clock management situations and play calling.

The play calling was much better last week as we finally opened it up and played loose.

The clock management is maddening. Just the ones that stick out...

1. Granted the game was in hand, but challenging the Cribbs TD last week when it would be 1st and goal from about 6 inches. A. He didn't look in B. You have 4 plays to get 6 inches.

2. Running a play 6 second before the 2 minute warning in the Cowboys game. They would have had 30-40 fewer seconds for their game tying score. That cost us the game (as did other things)

They are other sitations, you have all seen them.

Those are both things that can improve. Will they? I don't know


the challenge, IMO, was good. i would have done it. if i was head coach, I'd want Josh Cribbs (who players look up to) to know that I have his back. I want Josh Cribbs to get rewards for a TD if it is a TD.


Well when you look at the video, or have someone upstairs whose sole purpose is checking for reviewable plays, and you see there doesn't look like there is enough evidence to overturn, you do it anyway???

Again, it didn't matter because it was a blow out. If it was a close game and we needed those TO's or even the challenge, I would be pissed if he did it.

If it was a 4th down play, obviously you do it. It was first and goal with less than a foot.


I actually think the review was a good call since it benefitted the team no matter the outcome. It was a win-win, imo.

Now that 'running a play before the 2 minute warning' in the Dallas game is more tricky. But I don't see how it was really a bad decision. Knowing the quick strike capability of the Cowboys, it should be expected that they could get into FG range after we scored, time on the clock was an advantage to both teams.

Remember, at the time, BOTH teams had 3 timeouts.

If we let those 5 secs run off:
The best case scenario is we force Dallas to use at least 2 timeouts and score on 4th down with 1:37 left to kick a game winning FG, if we score before 4th down, they would have more time and more timeouts. We still have 3 timeouts to attempt to answer a score by Dallas.

If we don't let those 5 secs run off (run a play):
The best case scenario is we force Dallas to use at least 2 timeouts and score on 4th down with 1:42 left to kick a game winning FG, if we score before 4th down, they would have more time and more timeouts. We still have 3 timeouts to attempt to answer a score by Dallas.


The result:
1. We failed to score in 4 plays starting at the Dallas 6.
2. The Browns called all 3 timeouts on defense while holding the Cowboys to 3 and out
3.A 21 yard punt return coupled with a 15 yard penalty gave us the ball on the Dallas 17 with no timeouts and 1:10 left on the clock.
4. The quick score on the first play of that possession left Dallas the ball with 1:07 on the clock
5. The Cowboys were in easy FG range with :23 on the clock

My conclusion is that the call (while I hated it at the time, since I didn't think it through) made no difference in the outcome of the game.

There was no legitimate way to expect more than a difference of 5 seconds to be on the clock either way, and to leave the 5 seconds on made more sense at the time since it gave US the option to use it to score or to kneel (if we had the lead).

The quick score is far more to "blame" than the 5 seconds AND ultimately we lost the game because of the PI call on Brown, which was BS.
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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no way you can spin running the play 6 sec before the 2 minute warning against the Cowboys. No way. It was so dumb


Again with the Chiefs call. I understand it in that game situation. However, if it was a close game it would be dumb and hurt us.

Getting another play in, in a timely manner, shouldn't be a problem.

Whether he screwed it up or not, the blame falls on the HC.
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
There is no way you can spin running the play 6 sec before the 2 minute warning against the Cowboys. No way. It was so dumb


Again with the Chiefs call. I understand it in that game situation. However, if it was a close game it would be dumb and hurt us.

Getting another play in, in a timely manner, shouldn't be a problem.

Whether he screwed it up or not, the blame falls on the HC.


I didn't spin anything, I told you what happened. All due respect, you are spinning it to be "dumb" when it wasn't.

Tell you what, explain how that 5 seconds could have or did have any effect on the outcome of the game, as you stated.
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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
There is no way you can spin running the play 6 sec before the 2 minute warning against the Cowboys. No way. It was so dumb


Again with the Chiefs call. I understand it in that game situation. However, if it was a close game it would be dumb and hurt us.

Getting another play in, in a timely manner, shouldn't be a problem.

Whether he screwed it up or not, the blame falls on the HC.


I didn't spin anything, I told you what happened. All due respect, you are spinning it to be "dumb" when it wasn't.

Tell you what, explain how that 5 seconds could have or did have any effect on the outcome of the game, as you stated.


If they run the clock to the two minute warning, it would have been 1 more play they run inside 2 minutes. It was a running play. AKA 1 more time that the Cowboys would have to either burn another timeout to stop the clock, or let another 40 seconds run off the clock.

Remember how the Cowboys drove down the field with flags and lucky plays to tie the game.

They would have had 40 fewer seconds to do it, or 1 less timeout. There was not 1 legit reason to run the play before the 2 minute.

NOT ONE
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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
Entropy wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
There is no way you can spin running the play 6 sec before the 2 minute warning against the Cowboys. No way. It was so dumb


Again with the Chiefs call. I understand it in that game situation. However, if it was a close game it would be dumb and hurt us.

Getting another play in, in a timely manner, shouldn't be a problem.

Whether he screwed it up or not, the blame falls on the HC.


I didn't spin anything, I told you what happened. All due respect, you are spinning it to be "dumb" when it wasn't.

Tell you what, explain how that 5 seconds could have or did have any effect on the outcome of the game, as you stated.


If they run the clock to the two minute warning, it would have been 1 more play they run inside 2 minutes. It was a running play. AKA 1 more time that the Cowboys would have to either burn another timeout to stop the clock, or let another 40 seconds run off the clock.

Remember how the Cowboys drove down the field with flags and lucky plays to tie the game.

They would have had 40 fewer seconds to do it, or 1 less timeout. There was not 1 legit reason to run the play before the 2 minute.

NOT ONE



Also, I didn't mean you spinning it. I just meant in general. Wink

I don't take shots at my own. Laughing
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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
Entropy wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
There is no way you can spin running the play 6 sec before the 2 minute warning against the Cowboys. No way. It was so dumb


Again with the Chiefs call. I understand it in that game situation. However, if it was a close game it would be dumb and hurt us.

Getting another play in, in a timely manner, shouldn't be a problem.

Whether he screwed it up or not, the blame falls on the HC.


I didn't spin anything, I told you what happened. All due respect, you are spinning it to be "dumb" when it wasn't.

Tell you what, explain how that 5 seconds could have or did have any effect on the outcome of the game, as you stated.


If they run the clock to the two minute warning, it would have been 1 more play they run inside 2 minutes. It was a running play. AKA 1 more time that the Cowboys would have to either burn another timeout to stop the clock, or let another 40 seconds run off the clock.

Remember how the Cowboys drove down the field with flags and lucky plays to tie the game.

They would have had 40 fewer seconds to do it, or 1 less timeout. There was not 1 legit reason to run the play before the 2 minute.

NOT ONE



Also, I didn't mean you spinning it. I just meant in general. Wink

I don't take shots at my own. Laughing



Quote:
This group is comically undisciplined and poorly coached. The Dallas Cowboys should be ashamed of themselves. When you are being worked over by Pat Shurmur, its probably not a good sign. It is easy to see what was coming in the end though. Even when Brandon Weeden, who was high and wide all day, hit Ben Watson for what was then the go-ahead TD with just over a minute to play, the first thing I thought was we left way too much time on the clock.

Of course, there was an extra 20-30 seconds left on that clock and the Cowboys were able to save a timeout because Shurmur decided to run a play before the two-minute warning instead of taking it all the way down as the Browns were deep in Dallas territory trying to score.



From a different browns site. Not sure if I can post it here or not. But that's an actual sports writer who wrote it.

It wasn't just 5 seconds. It was at least 30 or a timeout.
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
Entropy wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
There is no way you can spin running the play 6 sec before the 2 minute warning against the Cowboys. No way. It was so dumb


Again with the Chiefs call. I understand it in that game situation. However, if it was a close game it would be dumb and hurt us.

Getting another play in, in a timely manner, shouldn't be a problem.

Whether he screwed it up or not, the blame falls on the HC.


I didn't spin anything, I told you what happened. All due respect, you are spinning it to be "dumb" when it wasn't.

Tell you what, explain how that 5 seconds could have or did have any effect on the outcome of the game, as you stated.


If they run the clock to the two minute warning, it would have been 1 more play they run inside 2 minutes. It was a running play. AKA 1 more time that the Cowboys would have to either burn another timeout to stop the clock, or let another 40 seconds run off the clock.

Remember how the Cowboys drove down the field with flags and lucky plays to tie the game.

They would have had 40 fewer seconds to do it, or 1 less timeout. There was not 1 legit reason to run the play before the 2 minute.

NOT ONE


I get what you are saying and I thought the exact same thing too. But when I remember that the Cowboys had all 3 timeouts before the 2 minute warning, I realized that there was no way WE were going to run 40 seconds off the clock, or any more than 5 more seconds.

I am on your side about letting the clock run down to the 2 minute warning in that situation, but that doesn't mean that the decision to NOT let the clock run down was "bad", but certainly questionable. It really was an insignificant decision in the first place.

We didn't know we were going to turn the ball over on downs at the time the decision was made, we only knew that we had 4 downs to get a TD and if we didn't we would need time on the clock to not lose.

As it turned out, the Cowboys had the ball on our 24 with an official timeout because of the PI penalty BEFORE they ran a play and used their last timeout, so they didn't even need that 3rd timeout you are suggesting was a difference-maker.

I think the whole point is that it definitely was a decision that was questionable, but so would the decision to let the clock run to the 2 minute warning if we scored on the first play after the 2 minute warning (which was certainly possible), the Cowboys drove for a FG making us use all our timeouts, or just ran the clock down and kicked the FG to tie (which is very likely), but if we got the ball back with 5 less seconds and no timeouts. That's one more play we could have run, right?

Seriously man, if it happened that way, you know you would still blame Shurmur. Very Happy
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:


Quote:
Of course, there was an extra 20-30 seconds left on that clock and the Cowboys were able to save a timeout because Shurmur decided to run a play before the two-minute warning instead of taking it all the way down as the Browns were deep in Dallas territory trying to score.



From a different browns site. Not sure if I can post it here or not. But that's an actual sports writer who wrote it.

It wasn't just 5 seconds. It was at least 30 or a timeout.


The thing about this guy is that he won't answer my questions, but you can...

How did the Browns cause an extra 20-30 seconds AND save the Cowboys a timout? See? He said "and".

Why would the Cowboys have let 20-30 seconds run off the clock in that situation?

Did you (talking to the sportwriter) know that it was 1st and goal? Meaning we have only 3 downs to score or even run the clock since the clock stops on a change of possesion?

Did you know that the game should have been over after we were stopped on 4th and goal but it wasn't because we had 3 timeouts left?

Are you aware that running time off of the clock only really helps when you have a lead?

Is it really bad that a coach wanted to actually get the lead BEFORE trying to run the clock down?
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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:


Quote:
Of course, there was an extra 20-30 seconds left on that clock and the Cowboys were able to save a timeout because Shurmur decided to run a play before the two-minute warning instead of taking it all the way down as the Browns were deep in Dallas territory trying to score.



From a different browns site. Not sure if I can post it here or not. But that's an actual sports writer who wrote it.

It wasn't just 5 seconds. It was at least 30 or a timeout.


The thing about this guy is that he won't answer my questions, but you can...

How did the Browns cause an extra 20-30 seconds AND save the Cowboys a timout? See? He said "and".

Why would the Cowboys have let 20-30 seconds run off the clock in that situation?

Did you (talking to the sportwriter) know that it was 1st and goal? Meaning we have only 3 downs to score or even run the clock since the clock stops on a change of possesion?

Did you know that the game should have been over after we were stopped on 4th and goal but it wasn't because we had 3 timeouts left?

Are you aware that running time off of the clock only really helps when you have a lead?

Is it really bad that a coach wanted to actually get the lead BEFORE trying to run the clock down?



It's not like they were just running to run out the clock. We could run out the clock and take the lead. All we had to do is wait 6 seconds.

I'm not just looking for ways to blame shurmur. I'm much higher on him now than before.

It showed me a lot that he opened the playbook up a ton last week. Finally showing some teeth and man parts lol.

I'm def not the only one who questions that. When I googled it, there were a lot of articles with people questioning it. ESPN had people questioning it.

Did it FOR SURE cost us the game? Eh

It would have for sure made the Boys use another timeout or let the clock run.
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