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If we had the #1 overall pick
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 8074
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You forget about having a lot of talent. The defensive line takes time to learn and there are good people there. The Steelers generally draft a year out to give their rookies time to learn. Teams that have no talent will get their draft picks in quick because the vets suck.

When they drafted Woodley and Timmons, Porter and Haggins were in the last year of their contracts. The Steelers knew they were going to lose them so they picked up two new players and gave them a year on the squad.

BPA works because they are patient. They might be too patient sometimes.
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at23steelers


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:
Tomlin's biggest issue thus far is that he's held on to older players far longer then Cowher would have. In doing so he's hindered himself drastically as there will eventually be a great deal of turnover on defense. Keisel, Hampton, Foote, Taylor, Polamalu, Clark and Harrison will all be gone in 1-4 yrs. There has to be replacements utilized in some capacity to gauge if the players backing up those player are capable enough to carry the torch into the future.


Keisel - Heyward
Hampton - McLendon, Ta'amu
Foote - Sylvester, Spence
Polamalu - ??????
Clark - Golden
Harrison - Worilds, Carter, Robinson

All those players have yet to establish themselves other then ST and bench material for one reason or another. Some may not agree,but I believe all those 2nd/3rd string players are capable enough for a 1-2 year span. Just until a better player/prospect is brought in to replace them.


Good point SP. The only one I feel that confident with is Heyward going forward. Which should actually be Hood's spot taking over for Keisel. Golden looked ok, but way too small of a sample size to know. Mundy actually looked good early in his career, but then was later exposed the more he played. Foote's and Polamalu's replacements make me a tad nervous.
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Gatoradus


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 2216
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally get BPA in 1st round, not the latter for the rest of rounds...

Tomlin's very slim of success with mid-round picks is a concern beside Manny Sanders, Mike Wallace, and Antonio Brown. It's kind of not fair considering they have a franchise QB throwing to them so in many cases they may be overvalued by us but regardless they have turned out nicely but the rest haven't.

Cowher have known to made some reach toward some picks but it works nicely because they fit in just fine within the system. I can think of more success we have in mid-rounds between 2000-2005 than we have within Tomlin's tenure.

Larry Foote, Brett Keisel, Chris Kemoeatu (for a 6th round, he is a successful player regardless), Max Starks, Ike Taylor, Chris Hope, and Clark Haggans.

With Cortez Allen's developmental, I hope this is a turning stone for us!

Admittly this year draft class have underperformed badly due to injuries and situations.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Different era. Noll had even more success on late round picks. That does not mean much now. when Cowher was picking for defense there were maybe 2 other teams using the 3-4. he had his pick. That is why you can get Aaron Smith in the 4th and Joey Porter late. No one was looking for tweeners.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 49575
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatoradus wrote:
I totally get BPA in 1st round, not the latter for the rest of rounds...

Tomlin's very slim of success with mid-round picks is a concern beside Manny Sanders, Mike Wallace, and Antonio Brown. It's kind of not fair considering they have a franchise QB throwing to them so in many cases they may be overvalued by us but regardless they have turned out nicely but the rest haven't.

Cowher have known to made some reach toward some picks but it works nicely because they fit in just fine within the system. I can think of more success we have in mid-rounds between 2000-2005 than we have within Tomlin's tenure.

Larry Foote, Brett Keisel, Chris Kemoeatu (for a 6th round, he is a successful player regardless), Max Starks, Ike Taylor, Chris Hope, and Clark Haggans.

With Cortez Allen's developmental, I hope this is a turning stone for us!

Admittly this year draft class have underperformed badly due to injuries and situations.


Cowher had some terrible drafts, especially in the first half of his career here.

Look at our 1995-1997 drafts. Some might argue Bruner was a good pick, but he was a blocking TE that didnt offer much in the passing game. Wasted pick IMO. Beyond that, you could argue Kordell Stewart had success here, but honestly IMO, he held us back more than anything. Every single pick in those 3 years was average at best and usually worse than that.

In fact, Id argue that those 3 drafts played a big part in our 3 year collapse from 1998-2000.

Now, Im not making excuses for Tomlin FO. Quite the opposite, actually. But Cowher had 3 or 4 drafts in his time here that were truly great, that made up for about 9 or 10 average or worse drafts.

One great draft can do wonders for a team, especially a team that already has alot of good pieces.

Lets hope Tomlin and Colbert have a great draft this year.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
Different era. Noll had even more success on late round picks. That does not mean much now. when Cowher was picking for defense there were maybe 2 other teams using the 3-4. he had his pick. That is why you can get Aaron Smith in the 4th and Joey Porter late. No one was looking for tweeners.


A very good point about Cowher and the 34.

Much easier to find quality players later.

Stupid copycatting pieces of trash.
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Gatoradus


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes I understand but remember Cowher was working with Tim Donahue. It was my understanding that they both disagree on personnels for most part, Cowher's draft started getting better after Colbert take over.

I suppose that's why we all assumed Colbert is/was a good GM but a coaching may have more factors in this than we think?
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at23steelers


Joined: 05 Mar 2011
Posts: 3721
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
jebrick wrote:
Different era. Noll had even more success on late round picks. That does not mean much now. when Cowher was picking for defense there were maybe 2 other teams using the 3-4. he had his pick. That is why you can get Aaron Smith in the 4th and Joey Porter late. No one was looking for tweeners.


A very good point about Cowher and the 34.

Much easier to find quality players later.

Stupid copycatting pieces of trash.


Seriously, we should've copyrighted this stuff years ago!!! Then we could sue them all right now for being such copiers!!
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tomlin's 2010 draft could drastically effect how this teams moves forward. Players such as Worilds, Dwyer, Sanders and maybe Sly could give Tomlin a much needed boast.

Worilds has a lot of critics because of his play. Next season could be a year where he steps up and makes a difference. If he doesn't he'll be another wasted 2nd round pick. Leaving the Steelers scrambling for a successor at ROLB.

Dwyer may possibly have a chance to be the featured back next season. Many question J. Dwyers work ethic, conditioning and desire, but that could all change next season.

Sanders can really make a name for himself if Wallaces departs during FA as he'll most likely be the #2 WR going into the season. This could be a year where he finally plays the way fans envisioned 2 yrs ago when he was making more noise then A. Brown.

Sly needs to turn into the next Keyaron Fox and be that great ST player, but more then capable 2nd string ILB.

This draft could keep Tomlin afloat long enough till re-inforcements arrive.

2009 and 2008 drafts have been terrible as only 4 players from both drafts combined remain on the team. 3 of the 4 could be leaving via FA which I believe can set the Steelers back 3-4 yrs if none of them are retained.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:
Worilds has a lot of critics because of his play. Next season could be a year where he steps up and makes a difference. If he doesn't he'll be another wasted 2nd round pick. Leaving the Steelers scrambling for a successor at ROLB.


They should be scrambling for a successor at OLB right now.

You can give me the spill about Worlids deserving a year as a starter to prove himself, but no...he doesnt deserve that at all. He is poor against the run and cant beat a tackle. He has shown ABSOLUTELY NO GROWTH as a player in his time here. At least with Timmons earlier in his career, he was very good as a situational pass rusher, especially from the interior, and he improved every single year from 2007 to 2010.

Worlids does nothing particularly well. He has an explosive first step, but that alone isnt going to get him anywhere.

Worlids should have the opportunity to COMPETE next year, but no way in hell should they feel comfortable with him as a starter. They need to get someone in the draft or free agency. If they just hand the job to Worlids like they did with Jon Scott and Willie Colon, they deserve to get screwed over just like they did in those two cases.
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at23steelers


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@43: Does anyone stick out to you in FA though? Paul Kruger does, but will be far too expensive. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/07/2013-pff-free-agency-tracker/

Really, the only FA's that stick out to me in general are Glover Quinn at S and Larry Grant at ILB.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
Worilds has a lot of critics because of his play. Next season could be a year where he steps up and makes a difference. If he doesn't he'll be another wasted 2nd round pick. Leaving the Steelers scrambling for a successor at ROLB.


They should be scrambling for a successor at OLB right now.

You can give me the spill about Worlids deserving a year as a starter to prove himself, but no...he doesnt deserve that at all. He is poor against the run and cant beat a tackle. He has shown ABSOLUTELY NO GROWTH as a player in his time here. At least with Timmons earlier in his career, he was very good as a situational pass rusher, especially from the interior, and he improved every single year from 2007 to 2010.

Worlids does nothing particularly well. He has an explosive first step, but that alone isnt going to get him anywhere.

Worlids should have the opportunity to COMPETE next year, but no way in hell should they feel comfortable with him as a starter. They need to get someone in the draft or free agency. If they just hand the job to Worlids like they did with Jon Scott and Willie Colon, they deserve to get screwed over just like they did in those two cases.


I liken Worilds to Deshea Townsend. Your never gonna know what talent Worilds has unless he starts and plays. Its hard to justify how well a player plays based off of only small sample sizes. Worilds this season for a while was playing better then Harrison and Woodley. I mean that's not saying much as Timmons lead the team in sacks, but Worilds did show flashes.

43, we aren't going to agree on this and I understand that.
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jebrick


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At some point, in the near future, the Steelers will not be able to push the player cost forward any more and then youth will be served.

I have no problem with How long it takes to train Dline players to play a 2 gap. Very very few have played that way in college.

It took Aaron Smith 3 years to make the lineup. He was a 270 lb DT from Colorado. he needed time to #1 bulk up and #2 learn to use his hands. People have no problems with a 4th round pick taking 3 years to learn.

Ziggy has a problem that he has shorter arms then you would want for a 3-4 DE His effort is great but he can not keep the OT away from him. The Steelers are going to have to decide what they want to do with him because he is a mediocre 5 tech but a decent/good 3 tech

Two areas I can see that the Steelers could improve the defense right now. NT play and replace Foote with a more athletic LB.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
At some point, in the near future, the Steelers will not be able to push the player cost forward any more and then youth will be served.


Not if the TV deals kick in in the near future.

But due to players simply getting older, this team will get young soon.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatoradus wrote:
I totally get BPA in 1st round, not the latter for the rest of rounds...

Tomlin's very slim of success with mid-round picks is a concern beside Manny Sanders, Mike Wallace, and Antonio Brown
. It's kind of not fair considering they have a franchise QB throwing to them so in many cases they may be overvalued by us but regardless they have turned out nicely but the rest haven't.

Cowher have known to made some reach toward some picks but it works nicely because they fit in just fine within the system. I can think of more success we have in mid-rounds between 2000-2005 than we have within Tomlin's tenure.

Larry Foote, Brett Keisel, Chris Kemoeatu (for a 6th round, he is a successful player regardless), Max Starks, Ike Taylor, Chris Hope, and Clark Haggans.

With Cortez Allen's developmental, I hope this is a turning stone for us!

Admittly this year draft class have underperformed badly due to injuries and situations.
umm having two of those 3 Wrs become pro bowlers after being mid round picks is more than any other team in the league can say bro Wink
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