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DCRED


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
1. Taj Boyd, Qb Clemson
2. Ryan Nassib, QB Syracuse
3. Mike Glennon, Nc St
4. Aaron Murray, Georgia
5. Ej Manuel, Florida St
6. Zac Dysert, QB, Miami of Ohio


I haven't put together my QB evals yet, but I would stay away from Murray from what I remember of his outlook from last year. I'd also be a bit surprised if Boyd came out without a really good bowl game (not saying he would be a bad prospect).
many said the same of cousins last year. Cousins was a guy who started all his time at Mich St but have never wowed anyone really. He did play big in big spots but he also would make mistakes and be inconsistent at times. A lot like Murray, Cousins never quite became what some thought he would be at Michigan State. Murray is a lot like Cousins in my eyes.


OK Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes His OC said of Cousins:
Quote:
" We're the winningest Big Ten program in the last four seasons, and I'm looking at it going, 'Why?' Certainly Coach Dantonio and our kids but if there's one particular guy I'm pointing at, it's him."


Cousins' description: He delivers


But he could have won more games, or thrown more TD passes, or been more efficient?
Quote:
All talk? No Michigan State quarterback has won more games or has thrown more touchdown passes or has been more efficient than Cousins.
Oh....

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-12-08/sports/ct-spt-1208-big-ten-silver-football-kirk-cousins--20111208_1_kirk-cousins-spartans-big-ten

http://www.freep.com/article/20120427/SPORTS07/204270411/michigan-state-kirk-cousins-nfl-draft
Quote:
Most NFL draft analysts project former Michigan State quarterback Kirk Cousins to be selected in tonight's second or third round.

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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
1. Taj Boyd, Qb Clemson
2. Ryan Nassib, QB Syracuse
3. Mike Glennon, Nc St
4. Aaron Murray, Georgia
5. Ej Manuel, Florida St
6. Zac Dysert, QB, Miami of Ohio


I haven't put together my QB evals yet, but I would stay away from Murray from what I remember of his outlook from last year. I'd also be a bit surprised if Boyd came out without a really good bowl game (not saying he would be a bad prospect).
many said the same of cousins last year. Cousins was a guy who started all his time at Mich St but have never wowed anyone really. He did play big in big spots but he also would make mistakes and be inconsistent at times. A lot like Murray, Cousins never quite became what some thought he would be at Michigan State. Murray is a lot like Cousins in my eyes.


OK Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes His OC said of Cousins:
Quote:
" We're the winningest Big Ten program in the last four seasons, and I'm looking at it going, 'Why?' Certainly Coach Dantonio and our kids but if there's one particular guy I'm pointing at, it's him."


Cousins' description: He delivers


But he could have won more games, or thrown more TD passes, or been more efficient?
Quote:
All talk? No Michigan State quarterback has won more games or has thrown more touchdown passes or has been more efficient than Cousins.
Oh....

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-12-08/sports/ct-spt-1208-big-ten-silver-football-kirk-cousins--20111208_1_kirk-cousins-spartans-big-ten

http://www.freep.com/article/20120427/SPORTS07/204270411/michigan-state-kirk-cousins-nfl-draft
Quote:
Most NFL draft analysts project former Michigan State quarterback Kirk Cousins to be selected in tonight's second or third round.
umm but he wasn't a 2nd round pick or even a 3rd. Real GMs, the guys who make the picks- felt differently. If he could of been really isn't up for debate because the REALITY is that he wasn't... Wink

I wish you would stop taking this as an assault on Cousins. It's not. I want what's best for the team. I think the team gets better if we can get higher draft picks in the upcoming drafts by trading away a back up.

I see a guy like Murray from Georgia being very similar to cousins. He's got a ton of experience and has been a leader at UGA since he arrived on campus. He's had his ups and downs, mostly ups and can be had in the mid rounds just where Cousins was drafted.

Didn't the eagles get better when they traded away Kolb for a 2nd and DRC?
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
umm but he wasn't a 2nd round pick or even a 3rd. Real GMs, the guys who make the picks- felt differently. If he could of been really isn't up for debate because the REALITY is that he wasn't... Wink

I wish you would stop taking this as an assault on Cousins. It's not. I want what's best for the team. I think the team gets better if we can get higher draft picks in the upcoming drafts by trading away a back up.

I see a guy like Murray from Georgia being very similar to cousins. He's got a ton of experience and has been a leader at UGA since he arrived on campus. He's had his ups and downs, mostly ups and can be had in the mid rounds just where Cousins was drafted.

Didn't the eagles get better when they traded away Kolb for a 2nd and DRC?


I don't know did the Eagles get better? What's their record? Wink

Fortunately for us our coach Mike Shanahan had a higher grade on Cousins than You and considered him a Steal in the 4th, and actually graded him higher. I think "real GM's" - the guys who make the picks- would agree with Mike Shanahan at this point. That is Reality.

No I don't take this as an assault on Cousins... That would be a cheap shot like, maybe saying "Cousins never quite became what some thought he would be at Michigan State" After he won the starting job, beat their QB records, and was an excellent leader...

And AGAIN, It's not about Cousins, it's about the Value of the Backup QB position, ESPECIALLY when your team is on top of its division with an injured starting QB
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
umm but he wasn't a 2nd round pick or even a 3rd. Real GMs, the guys who make the picks- felt differently. If he could of been really isn't up for debate because the REALITY is that he wasn't... Wink

I wish you would stop taking this as an assault on Cousins. It's not. I want what's best for the team. I think the team gets better if we can get higher draft picks in the upcoming drafts by trading away a back up.

I see a guy like Murray from Georgia being very similar to cousins. He's got a ton of experience and has been a leader at UGA since he arrived on campus. He's had his ups and downs, mostly ups and can be had in the mid rounds just where Cousins was drafted.

Didn't the eagles get better when they traded away Kolb for a 2nd and DRC?


I don't know did the Eagles get better? What's their record? Wink

Fortunately for us our coach Mike Shanahan had a higher grade on Cousins than You and considered him a Steal in the 4th, and actually graded him higher. I think "real GM's" - the guys who make the picks- would agree with Mike Shanahan at this point. That is Reality.

No I don't take this as an assault on Cousins... That would be a cheap shot like, maybe saying "Cousins never quite became what some thought he would be at Michigan State" After he won the starting job, beat their QB records, and was an excellent leader...

And AGAIN, It's not about Cousins, it's about the Value of the Backup QB position, ESPECIALLY when your team is on top of its division with an injured starting QB
well we have a few starters that suck and shouldn't even be back ups. I'd worry about them 1st before I'd worry about having the best back ups we could have.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
Woz wrote:
DCRED wrote:
Bad idea to to trade Cousins before his third year is up. We finally got a reliable backup on the team. You know QB is the most important position on the team. We can do without another WR, etc. I know it hasn't been brought up before Rolling Eyes But why don't we keep him and just be happy we got him?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000113523/article/kirk-cousins-russell-wilson-ryan-tannehill-shine


If we could turn Cousins (a backup QB who (hopefully) would spend most of his time holding a clipboard) into a couple/handful of players that can contribute on offense, shouldn't we try?

Again, it's a value proposition.

T(Cousins) = amount of value you get in exchange for trading Cousins
V(Cousins) = amount of value you have for having Cousins on the roster

If T(Cousins) > V(Cousins), then you should probably trade him, else keep him.

The real questions are:
1. What is T(Cousins)?
2. What is V(Cousins)?

The latter variable is going to be more of a personal taste issue. The former is what teams are willing to offer. We've seen people (both here and in the media) throw out what they think T(Cousins) is. However, V(Cousins) is more ephemeral. If Griffin was completely healthy and took half as many hits as he has this season, the V() value would be significantly lower. However, given that Griffin has missed parts of two games and one start (maybe more?), it's probably at its highest right now. What's helping the trade side of the house is that Cousins is living up to that value proposition.


What is the Value of having a backup QB during what could be perhaps the most important and relevant game in Recent Franchise History coming up and know he can Lead the team and make the Offense keep Rolling?
Doesn't the place where this team has put itself possibly raise the importance of a backup QB who can Win in this league?

How many teams can say that they have complete confidence that their Backup QB can be called upon to WIN a big game for them? And how many teams are not playing deep into the season because they overlooked or fouled up the position?? Jets, Jags, Cards, Oak, Phi, Don't you think Chicago would have liked to have Cousins backing Cutler???

And ours just beat the #22 Overall pick Weeden who had Trent Richardson for our D to focus on.

Guys, having a great backup QB is not a "luxury" pick, having a great backup is CRUCIAL. So if you Really think you need to trade one, you only take a GREAT deal that blew you away...
And you better soon get someone you feel is qualified to play the second most important position on the team (according to Gibbs, and he said that YEARS ago, when it was not a passing league) to fill that void you just created. And you had better be sure you got the right guy again...


I think you misunderstood me a bit. You asked why don't we keep him and be happy we got him. I was answering why we might or might not.

I'm not advocating trading Cousins (my V value for him is quite high because of the injury factor). However, if someone were to offer us a pair of seconds, I would have to consider it very seriously and in the end probably take it (would depend a bit on the team (for instance, I might accept a slightly lower pick from an AFC team)).

If we had a first round picks both this coming draft and in 2014, I would basically say no unless a first was on the table. However, we have to also factor in the state of the franchise's future and how we might ameliorate the loss of those two first round picks.

I'll admit my early replacement target for Cousins (McCarron) chose to stay in school. Yes, you all mocked my McElroy interest (again, it would have been a late round play), but he's starting as a seventh round pick.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
1. Taj Boyd, Qb Clemson
2. Ryan Nassib, QB Syracuse
3. Mike Glennon, Nc St
4. Aaron Murray, Georgia
5. Ej Manuel, Florida St
6. Zac Dysert, QB, Miami of Ohio


I haven't put together my QB evals yet, but I would stay away from Murray from what I remember of his outlook from last year. I'd also be a bit surprised if Boyd came out without a really good bowl game (not saying he would be a bad prospect).
many said the same of cousins last year. Cousins was a guy who started all his time at Mich St but have never wowed anyone really. He did play big in big spots but he also would make mistakes and be inconsistent at times. A lot like Murray, Cousins never quite became what some thought he would be at Michigan State. Murray is a lot like Cousins in my eyes.


From last year's numbers, Murray just barely crested the 60% completion percentage. However, when I originally wrote my comment, I recalled him being a bit more run-happy than he actually was (run:pass ratio = 0.234 ... on the high side but not disqualifying). I'm working on the seniors first then I'll go to the underclassmen who declare and then those that didn't (since I need to set them up for next year).
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
. However, we have to also factor in the state of the franchise's future and how we might ameliorate the loss of those two first round picks.

I'll admit my early replacement target for Cousins (McCarron) chose to stay in school. Yes, you all mocked my McElroy interest (again, it would have been a late round play), but he's starting as a seventh round pick.


We already did ameliorate those picks when we drafted Robert Griffin III. His play and what he will do on the field will be worth those picks, maybe more, so we never lost the value of those picks. It's getting old everyone acting like we are lost without 2 first rounders and a 2nd when we have the best QB to come out since ??? And acting like we just gave
them away for nothing and didn't snag the most Game-Changing QB in modern history.
And I don't remember mocking McElroy. The last QB I mocked was Tebow, and he's such a nice guy that I feel guilty for it now Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IF we should part with Cousins, I would throw out two low-rent names we could maybe replace him with in free agency. Again, these are backup-only guys who we would get cheap, but could possibly carry us through for a game or two here or there.

So, let the pie throwing begin:
Tarvaris Jackson
Matt Moore

This would mean no Grossman, which may or may not be the right call, but would allow us to forgo spending a high draft pick this year (relative to what we have, so I'm thinking 5th on higher). It could also allow us to take a much bigger project QB (Ryan Aplin? Alex Carder? Again, I haven't fully finished my numbers on these guys).
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
Woz wrote:
. However, we have to also factor in the state of the franchise's future and how we might ameliorate the loss of those two first round picks.

I'll admit my early replacement target for Cousins (McCarron) chose to stay in school. Yes, you all mocked my McElroy interest (again, it would have been a late round play), but he's starting as a seventh round pick.


We already did ameliorate those picks when we drafted Robert Griffin III. His play and what he will do on the field will be worth those picks, maybe more, so we never lost the value of those picks. It's getting old everyone acting like we are lost without 2 first rounders and a 2nd when we have the best QB to come out since ??? And acting like we just gave
them away for nothing and didn't snag the most Game-Changing QB in modern history.


No, but having more picks allows us flexibility in the draft. Do we feel we need to trade back up into the first? Having that extra second allows us to do that? Wouldn't it be nice to have two second round picks to help bolster the secondary? Or getting the top right tackle (thus helping maximize Griffin's health) and the 3rd best defensive back?

Having that better talent brought in sooner means you can take chances later. Perhaps take a Zac Dysert or E.J. Manuel in the third?

Quote:
And I don't remember mocking McElroy. The last QB I mocked was Tebow, and he's such a nice guy that I feel guilty for it now Laughing


It may not have been you, but when I suggested McElroy as a possible late-round QB, he suddenly became my man-crush. I'd be more interested in Kellen Moore if the Lions did something silly and cut him.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
well we have a few starters that suck and shouldn't even be back ups. I'd worry about them 1st before I'd worry about having the best back ups we could have.


again it is not "the best backups" it is about having a good backup QB... That's it.

The same position Joe Gibbs years ago called the 2nd most important position on the team.
Do You still really think some 4th round CB would be starting and would have made a bigger impact than Cousins who put us in the NFC East lead with that win? Or a young T would be protecting Grossman and we would have the same success....Really?

Well, I am happy that Mike Shanahan, Bruce Allen, and Joe Gibbs all disagree with you.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:


No, but having more picks allows us flexibility in the draft. Do we feel we need to trade back up into the first? Having that extra second allows us to do that? Wouldn't it be nice to have two second round picks to help bolster the secondary? Or getting the top right tackle (thus helping maximize Griffin's health) and the 3rd best defensive back?

Having that better talent brought in sooner means you can take chances later. Perhaps take a Zac Dysert or E.J. Manuel in the third?

Quote:
And I don't remember mocking McElroy. The last QB I mocked was Tebow, and he's such a nice guy that I feel guilty for it now Laughing


It may not have been you, but when I suggested McElroy as a possible late-round QB, he suddenly became my man-crush. I'd be more interested in Kellen Moore if the Lions did something silly and cut him.


As long as we use one of those picks to grab a QB who can bring what Cousins does, then sure.... But we are rolling the dice every time we pick a QB, and that's not a position you want to strike out on.

I'm SICK of having guys like John Beck and Rex Grossman play and lose horrificly, especially when we finally have meaningful games and may well be looking forward to many years of important December games and a QB who has already been out of two games this year.

You get a CB and the chance to move up and get a T maybe for trading Cousins, put Grossman (or another schmuck) in and you just pissed it all away. Anyone can see that it is RG3 and Cousins' mobility and accuracy on the move that is helping the line look good. You leave a QB in the pocket and they will get slaughtered. But we are keeping Defenses stymied, frozen and guessing too much by keeping our QB's moving. Grossman can't do that, so we had better find a QB that has good accuracy on the move if you give up Cousins.

So to make it short NO the " chance to move up" in the draft "or take chances later" is not worth your Offense spit, sputter, and faltering when your Reserve QB comes in.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
well we have a few starters that suck and shouldn't even be back ups. I'd worry about them 1st before I'd worry about having the best back ups we could have.


again it is not "the best backups" it is about having a good backup QB... That's it.

The same position Joe Gibbs years ago called the 2nd most important position on the team.
Do You still really think some 4th round CB would be starting and would have made a bigger impact than Cousins who put us in the NFC East lead with that win? Or a young T would be protecting Grossman and we would have the same success....Really?

Well, I am happy that Mike Shanahan, Bruce Allen, and Joe Gibbs all disagree with you.
those were different times when Gibbs said that, weren't they? Wasn't that in the 80s? When there was no salary cap.

I didn't say Boykin would start, but he'd play more than cousins, be our nickel or dime cb and he would have been our kick off and punt return man all year long- meaning no banks which I'm sure puts a smile on your face from ear to ear. Then we can keep another position player active on GD that we need more.

How many more games would we have won this year with better cb or safety play like if we had drafted Boykin in the 4th or Brandon Taylor in round 3 also?

I love what Cousins has done, don't get me wrong but qb has never EVER been a problem with this team. And yes, cousins helped us win the last two games.

But if we have better safety play than Madieu Williams out there, I'd argue we would have beaten StL, Cincy, Atl and the giants the first time. In each of these games our secondary absolutely killed our chances of winning.
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="turtle28"]
DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
well we have a few starters that suck and shouldn't even be back ups. I'd worry about them 1st before I'd worry about having the best back ups we could have.


again it is not "the best backups" it is about having a good backup QB... That's it.

The same position Joe Gibbs years ago called the 2nd most important position on the team.
Do You still really think some 4th round CB would be starting and would have made a bigger impact than Cousins who put us in the NFC East lead with that win? Or a young T would be protecting Grossman and we would have the same success....Really?

Well, I am happy that Mike Shanahan, Bruce Allen, and Joe Gibbs all disagree with you.
Quote:
those were different times when Gibbs said that, weren't they? Wasn't that in the 80s? When there was no salary cap.
Yes, he realized the importance back then when the league was NOT a passing league. Now it is even MORE important. But since YOU mentioned salary cap. Kirk Cousins is making 2.5 Million for 4 years. That is a BARGAIN for a QB who can come in and win you games. Less than 650,000 a year-A vet would cost us more-- Rex Grossman is making 1.3 Million for 2012-- you do the math.

Quote:
I didn't say Boykin would start, but he'd play more than cousins, be our nickel or dime cb and he would have been our kick off and punt return man all year long- meaning no banks which I'm sure puts a smile on your face from ear to ear. Then we can keep another position player active on GD that we need more.

How many more games would we have won this year with better cb or safety play like if we had drafted Boykin in the 4th or Brandon Taylor in round 3 also?

How many games has Brandon Boykin won for the Eagles out of their what? 4? He would have to win 3 of them to beat Cousins with your "logic"... And I'm fine with Crawford back there instead of Banks

Quote:
I love what Cousins has done, don't get me wrong but qb has never EVER been a problem with this team. And yes, cousins helped us win the last two games.
THIS I don't understand at all. Apparently you are fine that we have had Grossman and Beck starting, and don't think we have EVER had a QB problem here. I don't know where to start with that.

Quote:
But if we have better safety play than Madieu Williams out there, I'd argue we would have beaten StL, Cincy, Atl and the giants the first time. In each of these games our secondary absolutely killed our chances of winning.
Or maybe a 4th round rookie makes some of the same mistakes our guys did? Quit fooling yourself. The Eagles did not turn around the season with Boykin. On the other hand Cousins DID win us two games.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha- I knew you'd see my post in that way, I guess I need to spell out things better with more elaborate posts... Rolling Eyes

I meant in the 80s Gibbs had the luxury of having no salary cap. Meaning he could carry a bunch of players that cost more because Cooke would pay for it to win. Qbs, OL, WRs, RBS, D players- you name it, we had an abundance. In the 80s as now we were one of the richest teams in the league but back then the owner could spend as much as he wanted because there was no cap.

We don't have that luxury now. Draft picks are so much more important than they were in the 70s and 80s when we did a lot of wheeling and dealing with picks for vets. In the draft now a days not only do you have to take the best player available but you have to fill needs that you couldn't fill in free agency.

After free agency we had glaring holes at starting Qb (covered with Rg3) Rt and the secondary. We waited till the 6th and 7th rounds to draft a Rt and address glaring holes in the secondary.

What I meant about qb not being a problem is, it hasn't been a problem for the 2012 version of the Washington redskins because guess what? We moved up to draft the most dynamic player in the qb class and he's been a top 5 qb in the NFL all year.

As far as the point about the cost of Cousins vs Grossman. Well that's moot because last time I checked Grossman is on the 2012 roster of the Washington redskins acting like another coach for Griffin and Cousins. So he's still taking up cap space there bro. Wink

As far as cousins being this great savior. I'd argue that our TEAM overall is better than the eagles. You stick Cousins in for Foles and the results are the same for the eagles. They've been killed by injuries on their offensive line- the second most important unit of an offense.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Ha- I knew you'd see my post in that way, I guess I need to spell out things better with more elaborate posts... Rolling Eyes

I meant in the 80s Gibbs had the luxury of having no salary cap. Meaning he could carry a bunch of players that cost more because Cooke would pay for it to win. Qbs, OL, WRs, RBS, D players- you name it, we had an abundance. In the 80s as now we were one of the richest teams in the league but back then the owner could spend as much as he wanted because there was no cap.

We don't have that luxury now. Draft picks are so much more important than they were in the 70s and 80s when we did a lot of wheeling and dealing with picks for vets. In the draft now a days not only do you have to take the best player available but you have to fill needs that you couldn't fill in free agency.

After free agency we had glaring holes at starting Qb (covered with Rg3) Rt and the secondary. We waited till the 6th and 7th rounds to draft a Rt and address glaring holes in the secondary.

What I meant about qb not being a problem is, it hasn't been a problem for the 2012 version of the Washington redskins because guess what? We moved up to draft the most dynamic player in the qb class and he's been a top 5 qb in the NFL all year.

As far as the point about the cost of Cousins vs Grossman. Well that's moot because last time I checked Grossman is on the 2012 roster of the Washington redskins acting like another coach for Griffin and Cousins. So he's still taking up cap space there bro. Wink

As far as cousins being this great savior. I'd argue that our TEAM overall is better than the eagles. You stick Cousins in for Foles and the results are the same for the eagles. They've been killed by injuries on their offensive line- the second most important unit of an offense.


You roll your eyes because you make senseless, baseless comments then have to backtrack and work your way out of it
Laughing
Yes we have a salary cap now hence it is more important to carry low salaries and shore up your backup positions with YOUNG players. Grossman will not be here next year because we drafted Cousins-- can't even YOU see that? We got a young guy to take his place. I thought that was obvious.

great savior? No. Essential Backup QB. Yes. Won more games in the NFL than Brandon Boykin? Yes. Second most important position on the team? Yes.

Quote:
guess what? We moved up to draft the most dynamic player in the qb class and he's been a top 5 qb in the NFL all year.

Are you serious with this? I supported the trade more than you and backed it from the start, no matter the cost. So please don't try to guess what me Laughing I thought us moving up to draft RG3 was common knowledge? And you can read my opinion of RG3 here in this very thread:
Quote:
most Game-Changing QB in modern history.
So please don't play guess what

Please Don't talk to me like I'm stupid. Here is your quote, Sir :
Quote:
I love what Cousins has done, don't get me wrong but qb has never EVER been a problem with this team
Now how do you say something like that then try to backtrack and say it meant something else? However you look at it that comment makes no sense in your argument or otherwise. QB hasn't been a problem for this 2012 team because
1. We drafted RG3
2. We drafted Kirk Cousins
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