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So you want Freeman replaced
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ravishingone


Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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Location: Leola
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I mentioned earlier, I am a Freeman supporter and recognize his flaws with accuracy. However, I'm not going to say his TD:Int ratio which is very good is because of luck or now he someone now has the best weapons available in the league. He will probably get to 30 TDs this year and he does deserve credit for that achievement. Do I want to see him more consistent - yes and that has to start immediately.

Finally, the only scenerio I see removing Freeman from being the starter is if they draft a QB in the first round. Yes, they will have to trade Freeman also. History has shown that trading for someone's supposed talented back-up doesn't work out very well (Cassel, Kolb, Flynn, etc). If they draft a QB in the first round, no need to have 2 QBs on the roster who are 25 or younger, that will be a PR nightmare. The moment the starter has even one bad quarter, the calls will for other guy to be inserted will be very loud. Heck, some are calling to bench Freeman now for Orlovsky, now that is funny. Very Happy

There will be no help in the free agent market whatsoever. Trade Freeman and draft a QB very early is the only scenerio. I highly doubt this will happen, but Dom drafted Freeman, Schiano didn't, just saying.
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RoeKG


Joined: 10 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ravishingone wrote:
As I mentioned earlier, I am a Freeman supporter and recognize his flaws with accuracy. However, I'm not going to say his TD:Int ratio which is very good is because of luck or now he someone now has the best weapons available in the league. He will probably get to 30 TDs this year and he does deserve credit for that achievement. Do I want to see him more consistent - yes and that has to start immediately.

Finally, the only scenerio I see removing Freeman from being the starter is if they draft a QB in the first round. Yes, they will have to trade Freeman also. History has shown that trading for someone's supposed talented back-up doesn't work out very well (Cassel, Kolb, Flynn, etc). If they draft a QB in the first round, no need to have 2 QBs on the roster who are 25 or younger, that will be a PR nightmare. The moment the starter has even one bad quarter, the calls will for other guy to be inserted will be very loud. Heck, some are calling to bench Freeman now for Orlovsky, now that is funny. Very Happy

There will be no help in the free agent market whatsoever. Trade Freeman and draft a QB very early is the only scenerio. I highly doubt this will happen, but Dom drafted Freeman, Schiano didn't, just saying.


Orlovsky isn't as bad of a backup as many make him out to be, and benching Freeman for him is a lot about sending a message to Freeman.

Freeman is very frustrating to me. I've seen him make incredible throws that I've only ever witnessed elite level QBs make. Then he can miss a wide open guy. He can display his talent enough to win over some of us and be just awful enough to lose others.
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ravishingone


Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point is playing Orlovsky at this point of the season makes no sense. Playoff hopes are pretty much gone, and Orlovsky isn't the future. Playing Freeman the rest of the way is the only option for the rest of the year. It has nothing to do with Orlovsky being capable or not. You bench Freeman for Orlovsky now is not going to make Freeman better. Freeman will only get better (if he can) by game action. Also, if by some small chance the organization does want to get rid of him in the offseason, benching him is going to hurt his trade value.
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Renegades5544


Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really see what playing Orlovsky or signing a vet for competition would really do because his problem isn't lack of motivation or hard work. He's one of, if not the hardest workers on the team. Which is frustrating in a lot of ways because it might mean that he simply isn't capable of playing more consistently. He's still making the same types of mistakes that he made as a rookie. A lot of that might stem from the lack of a competent OC and QB coach he had early in his career but maybe he's just plateaued.

I'm of the mindset that if you don't think you have a franchise QB and you're in position to draft a player you think could be one, you draft him. I really hope Freeman is our long-term answer at QB but he needs to show more consistency- we've all seen the flashes of greatness. I don't want to invest the pick(s) or time required in another and he also seems like a decent guy that isn't afraid to put the work in to be a great signal caller.

But not everyone is destined to be a star QB. I'm not ready to say that Freeman can't be one, but I do think the fact that his flaws haven't been corrected is alarming. Just because Dominik thought he could be a franchise QB a couple years ago, doesn't mean he feels the same now. It's a good idea to re-evaluate everyone come draft time and if there's a prospect the front office loves, who knows what this team could look like come Autumn.
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renegades5544 wrote:
I don't really see what playing Orlovsky or signing a vet for competition would really do because his problem isn't lack of motivation or hard work. He's one of, if not the hardest workers on the team. Which is frustrating in a lot of ways because it might mean that he simply isn't capable of playing more consistently. He's still making the same types of mistakes that he made as a rookie. A lot of that might stem from the lack of a competent OC and QB coach he had early in his career but maybe he's just plateaued.


IMO it still shows him that he isn't untouchable as the QB. It shows him that he will be held accountable for his play, and that there is a real chance that we can move in another direction if he finishes the season on such a down note.

There are plenty of motivated and hard working players that never make it in the NFL. Freeman may be motivated and hard working but apparently not so much to hit open receivers. Frankly I question this notion anyway, because of how much of a difference in play you see towards the end of games. Is he really so motivated when he's all of a sudden better with the game on the line? Why don't you see the same motivation to put a team away as you see in him to take the lead?

I think this is becoming an interesting discussion though, because Freeman doesn't have a deal yet.
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tml_gogo


Joined: 02 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's actually a good point. Why does Freeman always suddenly play well at the end of games? This doesn't include games we are down a lot, the fact that the other defense is just playing prevent is pretty obvious. I mean the games we're down by one or two scores near the end, he usually plays great. Why can't he do it all game? Maybe urgency helps him focus, but honestly, the good NFL quarterbacks are laser-sharp all game.
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Renegades5544


Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I most definitely want him held accountable for his play. My point is that usually when fans are clamoring for competition to be brought in, or for the obviously inferior backup to play (read Orlovsky), it is to light a fire under a starter that had previously been slacking. That isn't the case with Freeman.

Now if you want to bring in someone that is as talented as Freeman and let the two of them duke it out for the starting job, that's your opinion but it's one I don't share. The only way you're going to get a player with as much talent as Freeman is in the draft and by drafting another QB early we're basically signaling that we've given up on Freeman and the most we're hoping for is some sort of trade compensation. If we've given up on Freeman, let's draft someone else. If we haven't then let's give him every opportunity to succeed.

Obviously I don't know, but if I had to guess why he plays better at the end of the game I'd venture that the expediency gives him less time to think and just react. We saw this a lot in previous years, when he ran the hurry up and made his own calls at the line, he played significantly better. Maybe all the extra time and the first three and a half quarter's pace is just too slow for him and he gets into his own head.
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5nick5


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did anybody see Ryan Mallett's only throw tonight? That was a perfect pass, right in the red basket, and with great zip on it. Unfortunately for Mallett his backup TE sucks so he managed to bobble it and cause the INT. Still, that throw was better than any throw I've seen Freeman make this year. A lot of Freeman's good completions are when the receivers are doing all of the work.

Here's the problem with Freeman (other than him being inconsistent), he doesn't fit the system. I know he has the big arm and we like to take shots down field and yada yada yada, but we want a pocket passer. Freeman isn't a pocket passer. Freeman is a Ben Roethlisberger/Brett Favre/Donovan McNabb type of QB where he extends the play and makes things happen. When he doesn't do that, defenders can read his eyes while he sits back there in the pocket. He has to adjust to the defense instead of the defense adjusting to him.

I'm kind of torn here. I think Freeman CAN be a good QB, but I'm not so sure he fits the system. On the other hand, I really like the system, and believe we would be best suited to get the pocket passer that the system needs.

You can say bringing in competition is a bad thing for a QB and that trades for second-stringers don't work out. But Freeman needs to know that if he wants to keep his job, he needs to have consistently good performances. And as for backups, Matt Schaub and Brett Favre turned out ok.
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Renegades5544


Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

5nick5 wrote:
Did anybody see Ryan Mallett's only throw tonight? That was a perfect pass, right in the red basket, and with great zip on it. Unfortunately for Mallett his backup TE sucks so he managed to bobble it and cause the INT. Still, that throw was better than any throw I've seen Freeman make this year. A lot of Freeman's good completions are when the receivers are doing all of the work.

Here's the problem with Freeman (other than him being inconsistent), he doesn't fit the system. I know he has the big arm and we like to take shots down field and yada yada yada, but we want a pocket passer. Freeman isn't a pocket passer. Freeman is a Ben Roethlisberger/Brett Favre/Donovan McNabb type of QB where he extends the play and makes things happen. When he doesn't do that, defenders can read his eyes while he sits back there in the pocket. He has to adjust to the defense instead of the defense adjusting to him.

I'm kind of torn here. I think Freeman CAN be a good QB, but I'm not so sure he fits the system. On the other hand, I really like the system, and believe we would be best suited to get the pocket passer that the system needs.

You can say bringing in competition is a bad thing for a QB and that trades for second-stringers don't work out. But Freeman needs to know that if he wants to keep his job, he needs to have consistently good performances. And as for backups, Matt Schaub and Brett Favre turned out ok.


I would hope that we don't ditch Freeman just because we don't think he fits the system to a T. I like the Giant's offensive scheme as much as the next guy but refusing to adapt it to the players we currently have is just a recipe for disaster.

What I don't understand about bringing in competition in Freeman's case is that I don't think he's failing due to lack of effort or a flaw in the way he's approaching his role. I don't think he's done anything in his time here for us to believe he isn't doing everything he possibly can to keep his job. He understands that starting roles are earned and has put in the time and effort required to be a star quarterback but for some reason, it just isn't happening. I just fail to see what it would accomplish. He's already lit a fire under himself and I really just think that "lack of competition" is just another excuse. If he can't take that next step then we need to consider moving in a different direction.

Personally, I'd give him another year unless there's a prospect the front office absolutely fall in love with. I'm not blown away by any of the college guys and I'd like to be 100% sure that #5 isn't a franchise QB before ditching him. It's so frustrating though because thus far he's been such a tease- showing flashes of greatness followed by stretches of incompetence. You just want to scream, "BE MORE CONSISTENT! Either consistently good or consistently bad because this flip-flopping makes it really hard to figure you out as a player and act accordingly!"
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REDandPEWTER


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In all hindsight it's not going to happen this offseason. We're going to give him another year. I've always been a freeman supporter once he was drafted but it's disappointing how he's failed to develop as a future top qb.

Only 2 qbs I'd consider in 2013 draft is mike glennon and Arron Murray. Both have the intangibles in my opinion to develop into very good nfl qbs. But right now id say continue to build around freeman and te team as a whole and the 2014 qb class seems very promising if we need to go there.
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LazyBoyFil


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

REDandPEWTER wrote:
In all hindsight it's not going to happen this offseason. We're going to give him another year. I've always been a freeman supporter once he was drafted but it's disappointing how he's failed to develop as a future top qb.

Only 2 qbs I'd consider in 2013 draft is mike glennon and Arron Murray. Both have the intangibles in my opinion to develop into very good nfl qbs. But right now id say continue to build around freeman and te team as a whole and the 2014 qb class seems very promising if we need to go there.


i agree with you man

Glennon or Murray Round 2

Trade Free to Arizona

(no im not gona stop saying it)

in all likelihood however we keep freeman til the end of next year where he has a bad 2011 type year and has most likely no trade value (as opposed to now where he's probably good for a high 2nd maybe low 1st) and then we sign him to some ridiculous Eric Wright type contract with the same results Shocked im not saying im a mind reader or anything
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manilathrilla1


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Freeman had a 2002 BUC defense we would be contenders. Great Defenses rarely get blown out, most if not all games are close or heavily in the favor of the Great Defense.

Best case scenario I can see Freeman become an Eli or Big Ben type player by 1st relying on the Defense while gaining confidence during a playoff run and leading us to a championship. Eli was at best an average QB and relied heavily on his D before he won it all and his performance suddenly became Pro-Bowl caliber. The difference between his play pre-Super Bowl champ 2004-2007 and after 2008+ is astounding.

The one thing we need is a Defense
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bucstopshere


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

manilathrilla1 wrote:
If Freeman had a 2002 BUC defense we would be contenders. Great Defenses rarely get blown out, most if not all games are close or heavily in the favor of the Great Defense.

Best case scenario I can see Freeman become an Eli or Big Ben type player by 1st relying on the Defense while gaining confidence during a playoff run and leading us to a championship. Eli was at best an average QB and relied heavily on his D before he won it all and his performance suddenly became Pro-Bowl caliber. The difference between his play pre-Super Bowl champ 2004-2007 and after 2008+ is astounding.

The one thing we need is a Defense


Completely agree with you again Manilia.

and for god sakes please dont say Alex Smith, Glennon or Murray. You want Murray? The guy that didnt have enough common sense to spike a football and go to the NC? SMH...stop it.
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bucstopshere


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's a great written article....


Quote:
Josh Freeman is in the center of Tampa Bay sports discussion this week, and for all the wrong reasons. Comment section banter and twitter replies seemed to focus on his inaccuracies and antics in Sunday’s loss to the Philadelphia Eagles, and it’s as good of a time as any to take a look at Mr. Freeman, and ponder his future as the Buccaneers hopefully enter an prolonged era under the decision making of Mark Dominik and Coach Schiano.

First things first, I want to address his performance athletically and behaviorally on Sunday. His inconsistency in terms of accuracy is nothing new, and historically when the Bucs lose under his command, it is due to a subpar performance in terms of accuracy. However, his frustration with teammates (and whether it was all directed at Tiquan Underwood, the offensive line, or anyone else on the field matters little to me) is something I’d like to never see again.

Visible frustration at teammates or officials is something that can definitely become contagious, and with such a young team surrounding Josh, he needs to set a positive example.

I completely understand being frustrated (believe me, I was yelling at the TV, and Josh, all afternoon), as a leader on this football team, Josh will need to take care of business in a more diplomatic way. Outbursts on the field out of frustration builds a reputation, and quite frankly I’m glad the Buccaneers don’t have Jay Cutler or Phillip Rivers, and I hope that Josh learns how to express displeasure with his teammates in a better, less public way. Even if Tiquan ran the wrong route, a young wideout is likely never going to respond to getting yelled at on the field.


Back to the numbers for a look at the football aspect of Josh’s performance, and how it relates to the Bucs success. In the 23 wins Josh Freeman had led the Buccaneers to, his completion percentage is 62.6%, but in the 31 losses, his completion percentage dips to 56.8%. Interestingly enough, Freeman attempts fewer passes per game, and gets more yards per attempt, in Buccaneer victories. He throws an interception every 57 attempts in wins, but in defeats he throws a pick every 25 attempts.

So what does this regurgitation of statistics mean? Since he took over in that memorable game against the Packers in 2009, the story for the Bucs has been “As goes Josh Freeman, so go the Buccaneers.”

Unfortunately, to make another hip-hop reference, an alternate title for the story about Josh Freeman has been “Will the Real Josh Freeman please stand up?” This season, Josh had a fine string of outings, posting a QB rating over 100 for 5 straight weeks, and the Buccaneers performed accordingly, winning 4 of the 5 games, with the lone loss coming to the Saints, and that matchup was one illegal touch away from giving Josh a chance to earn yet another comeback victory. Of course, looking from a birds-eye view, one can see that 5 straight weeks of success turning into 4 wins means little for a team that is 6-7.

The inability to win without Josh Freeman playing at his best is clearly something that will lead to the streaky and volatile stretches of play that we as Buccaneer fans have to deal with week after week.

So what allows “Good” Josh to show up, either at One Buc or on the road, and lead the Buccaneers to victories? Taking a look at his best season, the 2010 campaign, reveals a few surface facts: High completion percentage, lack of turnovers, and fewer attempts per game were part of the keys to Freeman’s success. Josh registered only 474 pass attempts in 16 starts in 2010, compared to 551 attempts in only 15 starts in 2011.

Taking a deeper look, ESPN.com’s splits show an interesting bit of information that may show how Josh has been misused in 2012. In 2010, Josh was extremely efficient on first down throws, completing 64 percent of 1st and 10 throws, with a QB rating of 94.6. Over 16 games, he attempted 159 passes on first down. So far in 2012, Freeman has completed only 52 percent of 1st and 10 passes, but with a higher QB rating of 102.2. He has attempted 134 passes on first and 10 so far this season, and therefore is on pace to have just a handful more than he had on similar plays in 2010.

Seems that Josh has been better on first and 10, so what’s the issue? The issue is the lack of accuracy, and the position it puts Freeman into on 2nd and 3rd down. In 2012, Freeman has struggled the most on 2nd down passing in general, and in 3rd down and long passing. Seemingly, if he doesn’t strike on first down, he gets behind the down and distance and is unable to catch back up. He has a QB rating in the mid 70’s on 2nd down, and in the mid 80’s on 3rd and long.

I honestly believe that this shows that Josh is still developing the ability to cope with “the wheels falling off.” He usually does well on the scripted plays to begin a game, because it’s a very controlled environment. He also does well in the fourth quarter in comeback situations, because the game is open and flowing and there’s no time for stress, and he remains visibly cool and collected. It’s the grind of the game, the frustration of “2nd and 10” or “3rdand 8”, that gets to the young quarterback. Missing an open man on first down affects him for the next two or three plays, and this is where the coaches need to realize his weaknesses, and put him in a better position to succeed. It’s also an opportunity for Freeman to learn to better cope with the situations he is presented, and remain true to his abilities and responsibilities regardless of situation.


A suggestion and area for improvement in regards to the coaching staff would be (and I’m sure this will come as no huge surprise) to use Doug Martin on second down more often, even if Josh misses a pass on first down! Martin averages 5.6 yards per carry on second down, which means 2nd and 10 can turn to 3rd and 4, which is a much more manageable situation (obviously). The playcalling seems to be based on the previous seasons in Tampa Bay, where there was no stud running back who could collect chunks of yards at any time. And if the buccaneers do choose to throw the ball on second down, throw it to Martin and make it easier for Freeman, as Martin is most successful catching the ball on second down, and a short throw will obviously make things easier for Josh. 2nd and 10 does not require a 10 yard gain to be successful, 5-7 yards is just fine.

Overall, I believe that Josh Freeman may never “get over” some of his inconsistencies. He is never going to be the most accurate QB in the NFL, but honestly, he was never drafted to be that kind of player. He was drafted to be a Ben Roethlisberger type of QB, with athleticism and big play potential. This season, he has shown he is capable of being that kind of player, but just like Big Ben, most seasons won’t have completion percentages in the high 60’s like a Drew Brees or Peyton Manning type of quarterback (and by “type of” I mean specifically those two guys exclusively). The goal for the coaching staff is to learn the situations in which Josh is at his best, and put him in those situations as often as is possible. For Josh, the goal needs to be to grow as a leader of the offense, and to channel frustration into improvement, and to not allow incompletions, dropped passes, and incorrectly run routes to turn into future mistakes or shortcomings.

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REDandPEWTER


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good read. I don't have a problem if a qb comes back directing a wr and letting him know he ran the wrong route. In Freeman's , he hasn't established himself to yell at a wr bc he probably overthrew him wide open a few plays back.

What this article fails to mention is freeman plays well against bad teams/defenses. Defenses that won't confuse him. Defenses like Denver will bring pressure. Freeman does a poor job handling pressure and picking up the blitz. See Dallas and Washington tape as well.

He also seems to get confused in zone coverages. He audibuled many times to deep pass plays when Philly was playing in cover 2 cover 3 packages. Your supposed to pick a part a zone defense with underneath routes. I can't tell you how often I see freeman throw into double coverage with a safety closing in over top and db underneath. He's going to get his wr sandwiched and risk TOs. Regardless of the throw f Ra perfect it's got a high % incompletion rate. If its off its going to be an int.

Everyone points out his 4th qtr stats. Sometimes they're misleading others theyre comebacks against subpar opponents (aka Carolina). See the Denver game for example or Dallas. The game was wrapped up pretty much and he did squat the whole game down 2 scores or more. Analysa will say well here's josh Freeman's 4th qtr play. No. It's defenses in Ed don't break. If tey score they eat a lot of clock doing it.
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