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NextBigThing


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We know this, McMurtry. You are basically saying that elite wide receivers do not guarantee a victory. Fine. Point conceded.

Here is the flaw with that argument as it relates to this thread.

You cannot blame the 2007 super bowl loss on the wide receivers. Going into that game, we had no visible holes on that team-no at receiver, QB, Oline, whatever. None. Some argued running back but Maroney had been lighting it up the previous 2 months.

Everybody knew the only way we would lose if they were straight up better than us - which meant they wee pretty f'ing good. On the field, that meant their defensive line getting to Brady. Sports Illustrated Cover: "Can They Get To Brady? The Answer Will Decide The Game". There would be (and was not) any stopping of the Patriots receivers that night. The only way to prevent scoring was to prevent the passes from being thrown.

They're dline was better than our oline that night. Randy and his elite hamstrings toasted the Giants defense relentlessly, too bad TB had no time to get passes off.

The key phrase being VISIBLE HOLES.

That is what is so frustrating about 2010 and 2011.

Everybody knew going into the game that deep threat wide receiver was a HOLE because we did not have one. In our 2010, our deep threat was Brandon Tate. In 2011, it was _______. Tom Brady is throwing hail marys to tight ends!

It is one thing to lose because you feel confident in your match ups and still lose. It is another to know in advance of that you have a hole on your team, then opt not to address it, and then lose primarily due to it.

Everybody here should be able to understand that point, and understand why bringing up 2007 is pointless. A deep threat makes our receivers unstoppable. If Brady cannot be detected, we were never going to win anyway. But if we lose another playoff game because the safeties play up ,and we cannot beat them vertically?

Nobody here can complain. It should not take losing the super bowl to wake people up to the fact that our offense can and will be stopped IN THE EXACT SAME MANNER it was stopped in the past 2 years.

It is MADDENING to be able to protect Brady unlike 2007 (but like in 2010 and 2011 playoff losses, when Tom had all day to pass but nobody was getting open), and have our receivers be the problem in the playoffs, when we knew throughout the entire regular season it was a problem & did zilch to address it.

That is extremely frustrating. Sorry, but I am not one to be happy losing multiple playoff games for essentially the same damn reason, while doing jack shiz to solve the problem in between.

Everybody says Moss sucks, but if we have him on that team in 2010 (and probably last year against the Giants too), the outcomes of the game are probably different. Say he sucks all you want, I'll happily add someone who "sucks" to our current team if it means not losing for the same reason we lost the past 2 years.

And frankly, any intelligent fan should feel the same way.
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Last edited by NextBigThing on Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NinjaZX6R


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NBT needs rehab.
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Troy Brown


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
This is pure schmuck bait. The Pats have the #1 offense in the league. Who cares if the receivers don't pass the NBT boner test?


He's not incorrect, though. The number one offense stat means nothing, we've seen the offense struggle largely due to having no one be able to really make defenses pay from the outside. Maybe if Gronk was 100 percent last year in the Superbowl, the Patriots have a fourth Superbowl but he was not, and our offense reflected that.

Now we've got a running game, though, too. I don't have any issue with the Patriots offense, but we've seen teams clog the middle of the field against the Patriots and have success doing so.
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ELRammy
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troy Brown wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
This is pure schmuck bait. The Pats have the #1 offense in the league. Who cares if the receivers don't pass the NBT boner test?


He's not incorrect, though. The number one offense stat means nothing, we've seen the offense struggle largely due to having no one be able to really make defenses pay from the outside. Maybe if Gronk was 100 percent last year in the Superbowl, the Patriots have a fourth Superbowl but he was not, and our offense reflected that.

Now we've got a running game, though, too. I don't have any issue with the Patriots offense, but we've seen teams clog the middle of the field against the Patriots and have success doing so.


Some folks do not believe in preemptively solving problems, they want to wait until it stares them in face/is blatantly too late, & 'react' to it instead.

Hate on Terrell Owens all you want. Anybody with a functioning brain will be able to figure that he would make a far bigger difference down the field than Brandon Lloyd. Laughing
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NinjaZX6R


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
Troy Brown wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
This is pure schmuck bait. The Pats have the #1 offense in the league. Who cares if the receivers don't pass the NBT boner test?


He's not incorrect, though. The number one offense stat means nothing, we've seen the offense struggle largely due to having no one be able to really make defenses pay from the outside. Maybe if Gronk was 100 percent last year in the Superbowl, the Patriots have a fourth Superbowl but he was not, and our offense reflected that.

Now we've got a running game, though, too. I don't have any issue with the Patriots offense, but we've seen teams clog the middle of the field against the Patriots and have success doing so.


Some folks do not believe in preemptively solving problems, they want to wait until it stares them in face/is blatantly too late, & 'react' to it instead.

Hate on Terrell Owens all you want. Anybody with a functioning brain will be able to figure that he would make a far bigger difference down the field than Brandon Lloyd. Laughing


Yes because the offense is the more glaring problem over that defense.
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NinjaZX6R


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, Lloyd isn't a whining crying little egotistical t**t like Team Obliterator.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NinjaZX6R wrote:
Also, Lloyd isn't a whining crying little egotistical [inappropriate/removed] like Team Obliterator.
Surprised you got that one past the censor, but you might want to change it...
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Troy Brown


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe Owens would make a difference on this team. I do think the need for a guy capable of making defenses pay is there, but TO wouldn't be that guy, as much as I'm a fan of his. I think Edelman had potential to be that guy this year, but that's gone now
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ELRammy
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NinjaZX6R wrote:
Yes because the offense is the more glaring problem over that defense.


Seriously man...please wake up. This is not the 1980s or 1990s. The game is different. It is 110% offensive league. 3500 yards 20 years ago is more impressive than 4500 yards is right now. Outside of Revis, corners are getting worked worse today than arguably ever before. Despite a new generation of ridiculous pass rushers, this offense & passing driven league. The best teams have the best passing games. One does not need an elite defense to be super bowl champions, they merely need an average/decent one to pair with a great offense. It should not be a surprise that the best teams are all the ones with the best passing games. Patriots, Broncos, Packers, Texans, Colts (Luck is a beast), Redskins, Redskins, Giants, Falcons.

The 9ers are the only real exception, but even they know they will not be a winning super bowl by scoring under 20 points.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or here's an idea, how about doing what works best for the offense, and not worrying about who can get behind the defense or who's 6'5" with "elite hamstrings". The 2012 Patriots offense is doing just fine without a gamebreaking WR and will only get better once a certain 6'6" tight end returns.
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Troy Brown


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
Or here's an idea, how about doing what works best for the offense, and not worrying about who can get behind the defense or who's 6'5" with "elite hamstrings". The 2012 Patriots offense is doing just fine without a gamebreaking WR and will only get better once a certain 6'6" tight end returns.


Our offenses were doing just fine, too, in previous seasons.

Then they played teams from New York.
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ELRammy
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:


Sorry, but I am not one to be happy losing multiple playoff games for essentially the same damn reason, while doing jack shiz to solve the problem in between.


The Pats put up 21 points and 412 yards on a Jets defense which allowed 19 PPG and 291 YPG in the regular season

Meanwhile, the Pats allowed 28 points and 314 yards to an offense which averaged 21 PPG and 351 YPG

I know it's become some sort of accepted wisdom that the Pats lost to the Jets because they lacked a "deep threat" to "take the top off the offense" but that's not really the case. They lost that game because they wasted their early opportunities to go up big on a questionable offense/QB - not because of the lack of a Moss but because they flat out weren't executing. Throw in the fake put botch and the Pats struggles along the line and you have a recipe for a loss.

Meanwhile, nobody has really been able to explain how the Pats can destroy (or put up huge yardage, if not points) on good (or great) defenses in the regular season without a Moss-esque talent or similar "athletic freak" and yet in the playoffs they (seemingly) fall flat.

It's an excuse. A poor excuse and one which is intellectually lazy. Of course the team could benefit from an elite down-field receiver. They'd also benefit from an in-his-prime Ty Law or Rodney Harrison. They'd benefit from having Jason Pierre-Paul or Von Miller. They'd benefit from having a better OL. You could pick literally a half dozen types of players and still put up the tired "they could have won if they had X because Y".

In reality, it's quite simple. The Pats were good enough to win those games with or without Randy Moss (or whomever). They just didn't execute well enough to do so. No team is unstoppable and there is no magic combination of skill sets that leads a team to be unstoppable.

The Pats don't need an athletic freak. They need to make the plays that their already-good-enough offense sets up. Stop dropping passes, making bad decisions, fumbling, taking bad penalties, whiffing on blocks etc. The Pats offense hasn't been stymied or out-coached in the playoffs as much as they've been unable to execute and haven't gotten any real lucky breaks.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NinjaZX6R wrote:
Also, Lloyd isn't a whining crying little egotistical t**t like Team Obliterator.


Pick one.

A. +1 cry baby, +1 Lombardi Trophy
B. - cry baby, - Lombardi Trophy

That is genuinely the choice which needs to be made. Anyone picking B needs their priorities reexamined. Putting up with T.O. in order to win a super bowl would easily be worth it...at least think so. Confused
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troy Brown wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
Or here's an idea, how about doing what works best for the offense, and not worrying about who can get behind the defense or who's 6'5" with "elite hamstrings". The 2012 Patriots offense is doing just fine without a gamebreaking WR and will only get better once a certain 6'6" tight end returns.


Our offenses were doing just fine, too, in previous seasons.

Then they played teams from New York.


Laughing I am laughing at obvious of a response this was. I frankly expected more out you, Tzi.
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Troy Brown


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TO being the difference between a superbowl for the Patriots or not is like me saying Kenyon Martin would make the Celtics the best team in the league.
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